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Four MPs defect to NO camp
Rank: Member Joined: 6/24/2008 Posts: 238
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@ Ngalaka, imagine!
@Wendz, please let us in on who is spending such kind of money, you do not have to state the name, just 'insuate'.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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@Soko tele, listen to Rasilio et al: you can not eat your cake and have it, you cannot be against reforms and claim to be a reformist.  Only in Kenya can a minister disagree with his "appointing authority" on such important matters of principle like the constitution and still retain the position. I find this to be very laughable, and I guess Soko belongs to this camp of demagogues.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/17/2010 Posts: 234 Location: Nairobi
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the new constitution is not a panacea. shock therapy awaits us post aug 4 and post 2012.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/7/2007 Posts: 11,935 Location: Nairobi
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@Brewer, My guess.......Baba Gidi. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/23/2010 Posts: 153 Location: FU
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@seeders, are you one of those people going around telling Kenyans that they will make a million shillings once they vote Yes?
Who said anything about a panacea. This is a country where people have lost hope. Hope in the gov't, it's leaders, its courts and worse, its clergy. How long do you think this can last?
a new contract is needed and like Chandaria, I say, needed yesterday.
This stories of saying "lets wait until we can all agree" remind me of a doctor who tells the patient...oh you have Hiv, then lets just wait until you have full blown AIDs, you will have saved a lot of money. We shall also have all agreed that you really are sick.
My friend it will be too late.
what can be more shocking than people burning babies in a church or in Naivasha. Are you being serious?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 5/31/2008 Posts: 1,076
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If some politician with fanatical following announces that he has been rigged out, no new constitution will prevent his/her followers from starting the kind of mayhem we saw in 2008. Roads will be blocked, shops looted, 'enemy' sympathisers forcefully evicted etc. If Matiba was such a politician, the same would have happened in 1992. Granted, 40million Kenyans can never all agree on everything, but when a substantial constituency like the church, and a good chunk of Kenyans have REAL issues they want sorted, surely a way ought to be found to bring them on board and take their input into account. The REAL issues have been raised elsewhere, and though weighty, they arent many, hence can be sorted easily if the will existed. http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...aspx?g=posts&t=7637
Constitution making processes ought to be quite inclusive, as opposed to what we are experiencing in our case, where if the proposed laws pass, they are only likely to muster a dismall 50% - 60% approval. Thus dividing the country down the middle. That's most undesirable scenario for introducing of the supreme law framework in the land. For general elections that would be just fine, but not so for a plebescite on the CONSTITUTION. My take therefore is,if a short delay would help us ensure that the process is more inclusive to a tune of 75% upwards then we need take that bold step. I am postive this is practicable. It is a pity that Kenyans have recoiled to the old cocoons of shouting those of contary opinion down. To us, anybody who does not agree with our view is the enemy, however sound his arguments may be!!!! We need to think again. Dunia ni msongamano..
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/17/2010 Posts: 234 Location: Nairobi
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rasilio/nanfor1/alma/nancy the insurer/tobiko cool down man. no need to see moi and pat robertson in everything. draft will not prevent another kiambaa rasilio wrote:@seeders, are you one of those people going around telling Kenyans that they will make a million shillings once they vote Yes?
Who said anything about a panacea. This is a country where people have lost hope. Hope in the gov't, it's leaders, its courts and worse, its clergy. How long do you think this can last?
a new contract is needed and like Chandaria, I say, needed yesterday.
This stories of saying "lets wait until we can all agree" remind me of a doctor who tells the patient...oh you have Hiv, then lets just wait until you have full blown AIDs, you will have saved a lot of money. We shall also have all agreed that you really are sick.
My friend it will be too late.
what can be more shocking than people burning babies in a church or in Naivasha. Are you being serious?
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/23/2010 Posts: 153 Location: FU
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Now whether there are swali tata or not, this is not the time to do it.
you cannot make a constitution unlawfully. there was a timetable which brother ruto and co signed up to and actually formulated.
It is time to follow it.
It is up to the people to decide. Whatever they decide is what is lawful.
Just because you believe everyone will be a muslim state may not be such a big concern to 50%+1 of the Kenyans. It is swali tata to you but not to the other kenyans.
the law says 50%+1 . not 75% not 49.8%. By the way you are quoting umtata word for word...wewe ni yeye?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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B.Timer wrote:
Thus dividing the country down the middle.
That's most undesirable scenario for introducing of the supreme law framework in the land.
My take therefore is,if a short delay would help us ensure that the process is more inclusive to a tune of 75% upwards then we need take that bold step.
I am postive this is practicable.
B. Timer, I do respect all the issues you have raised because they are valid. However, i just want to comment on the two issues i have quoted above. 1. Ont he issue of dividing the country down the middle, i totally disagree with you. The vote in referendum will not divide the country whichever way it sways - my reason - assuming it goes NO, then the YES team will just have to "wait" for the changes(changes of which YES team acknowledge that they will be changed after katiba is passed) to be done and we get a new katiba as it has been said by the NO team... if it goes YES, then the NO team will wait for the amendments to be done.. in any case, none of the contentious issues raised by the NO camp are "urgent"... for example, women wont go on an abortion rampage, neither will the muslims take over the country as we are made to think and no one will come for your 1/8 acre all on 5th of August. 2. Your "short delay" is actually a chase of a wild goose in a tropical rain forest.... We gave our mpigs a chance to raise and agree on the contentious issues. You are aware that although initially there were the 3 famous/infamous ones, we ended up with over 200 issues raised... so what short wait are you trying to tell us? who will come up with the contentious issues to be agreed apon? who will determine what is contentious and what is not and what will make an mpig not say that the salary authority thing is contentious? Lets not cheat ourselves that we can trust our "mpigs" who actually are supposed to be leading this process with the contentious issues they are talking about. its not going to happen. Tupitishe, turekebishe because if we dont secure what we can hold now, it will never come back as the law we want.... We cant trust them, not the ones in RED nor in GREEN... now that we have several locked in green, we better take the advantage and run with this thing.... anything else, we shall agree as kenyans which ones to change and especially if it favours us not the mpigs........
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/7/2007 Posts: 11,935 Location: Nairobi
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@Wendz, Can't put it better......Let's run with it before they realize they are neither red nor green. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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Wendz .... can't agree more.... Besides I have read and read the draft constitution ....there is NOTHING contentious at all....it is the best constitution in Africa....I challenge anyone to cite another one .... The problem is that some people have refused to take time to read and re-read understand the Draft....and some are just opposing from heresay ....they have not read.... some civic educationCitizenship by birth4) A child found in Kenya who is, or appears to be, less than eight years of age, and whose nationality and parents are not known, is presumed to be a citizen by birth. Read this withRevocation of citizenship17. (1) If a person acquired citizenship by registration, the citizenship may be revoked if— (2) The citizenship of a person who was presumed be a citizen by birth, as contemplated in Article 14 (4), may be revoked if–– (a) the citizenship was acquired by fraud, false representation or concealment of any material fact by any person; (b) the nationality or parentage of the person becomes known, and reveals that the person was a citizen of another country; or ( c) the age of the person becomes known, and reveals that the person was
older than eight years when found in Kenya.Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 5/31/2008 Posts: 1,076
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@Wendz I hear you ma’am. Thanks for advancing an issues oriented debate and keeping it fairly civil, an increasingly diminishing attribute here. Having said that, I hasten to add that whereas I appreciate the import of your sentiments, I still think what I postulated in my earlier post still stands; That there are only a few REAL contentious issues which can be sorted out fairly easily if the will existed. Other fringe contentions advanced by 0.002% of the population can be put on the ice for now. Giving excuses of fear of an avalanche of demands to deny genuinely aggrieved Kenyans an opportunity to have their strongly felt REAL issues addressed is to be headstrong and uncompromising. My point on dividing the country down the middle was probably taken out of context. I meant to say that A constitution to govern us ought to muster a near universal acceptance. Having one passed by a low threshold as this one seems headed to is not good for serious society. I hence proposed the small sacrifice to nip that imminent wrong in the bud, by allowing a short time out to caucus and widen the acceptance scope. I hope we agree that once this set of laws pass, amendments won’t be coming any time soon given the high threshold set to do so. That the desired amendments didn’t see the light of day in parliament is a matter to be blamed on the political class. We are all aware that passage/amendment of any major law is always negotiated outside parlimant and agreed upon beforehand, - so that the tabling of the same on the floor of the house is a mere formality to give it the stamp of legislature. This was arranged for - Naivasha - and we all remember with disdain the shenanigans that followed!! Having failed in their duty for which we pay through the nose, they unashamedly went ahead to ask us to pass the laws anyway regardless of the flaws that they had pointed out! I hate to accept mediocrity especially when I am pay an arm and a leg for the service. Dunia ni msongamano..
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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B.Timer
Good arguments.... look at this and then tell me why i shouldnt be very very veeery afraid.. Does it ring a bell? what happened that was so drastic?
Ruto backs revised draft constitution
Agriculture minister William Ruto says Kenyans now have a chance to shape the destiny of this country by passing the Harmonized draft. Ruto said the new draft constitution has what it takes to galvanize the country into greater heights.
Published: 2010-01-31
Uploaded: 2010-07-04
Author: NTVKenya
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 5/31/2008 Posts: 1,076
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@Wendz Keep the earlier tempo and shun any effort that takes this discussion in the wrong direction. First things first I cant speak for Ruto. I dont care which side of the divide he is, nor do I know for sure what his issues are. However I know that politicians are perpectual turn coats and if one were to keep their faith on them then they had better be ready for frequent dissapointments. Raila for one, and curiously his faithful followers (including those in wazua) were for a Parliamentary system but conveniently shifted ground, ostensibly to avert a waterloo. http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...osts&t=5766&p=2 My position is informed of the issues I raised and I can only substantiate on those. I hope you are where you are not because of a politician but because of your own convictions! Again dont make important decisions on the basis of how you relate with so and so. Ruto could make another about turn today to join the yes camp! I wouldnt be moved and I hope thats not a strong enough reason for you to quit the yes camp either. Dunia ni msongamano..
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/7/2008 Posts: 50
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@all,
I hate to be the party pooper and pessimist but I believe that even if we had a 100% perfect constitution handed down straight from heaven nothing much will change. . . not any time soon anyway.
Reason being that a good constitution needs at the very least, exemplary, bold and visionary leadership to steer the nation in the right direction. Kenya lacks the requisite leadership in the political class to lead Kenyans to the 'promised land'. At the very best, we can hope to 'wander in the wilderness' for the next generation (40 years?) with the hope that our children will have the courage to fight the giants (corruption, greed, poverty, disease etc) standing between Kenya and the 'promised land'.
Many see the draft constitution as the panacea for all ills ailing our good country. What folly! Remember the show of emotion and optimism during the 'yote yawezekana bila Moi' season? Kenyans were seen as the most optimistic people on earth! That was all fine and dandy. . .problem was that we didn't have the leadership to steer the misplaced national energy and passion in the right direction. Remember when it was reported that corrupt traffic cops were frog-marched to the police station? Or when Kenyans proudly walked long distances in support of the 'Michuki Rules'? What happened? What changed? Do we now have a new breed of leaders? Did we vote Moi out and Moism in? Let's not get carried away, only God, you and I can change Kenya- individually and in small ways. The greater call is not a new constitution written on paper. No, we need a new constitution written in the hearts of men. Look to God for salvation of our land and not from Mr. Politician. . .he's full of poly-tricks! Watch keenly, see what he pulls out of the hat.
My 2 cents.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/6/2008 Posts: 3,548
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I have not seen Rutos name in the draft or current constitution, neither is Mois, Koigis, kibakis, railas name inside the constitution. Naming people and then proceeding to make remarks based on the character of some personality as if it carries some weight on the debate bears a somewhat unqualified reasoning! Why not stick to the issues? A New Kenya
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/6/2008 Posts: 3,548
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Actually some of this naming personalities is meant to elicit emotions and these emotions are in fact such a big part of the reasons people are voting either way rather than some objective analysis. The YES camp is quite "tribally emotive", there is a collective emotion in Nyanza and Central about this constitution that bars objective reasoning. The simple reason is President is from central and he says YES and PM is from Nyanza and he says YES. But even after all this emotional tribal herding, currently only 48% of Kenyans support this "mukimo/mkorogo" of constitution and it is dropping (down from 79%), i hope it continues dropping till kitu 21% A New Kenya
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 5/31/2008 Posts: 1,076
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@Funnyguy, So true. Even with the best of constitutions if you elect a demagogue you reap demagoguery. You elect a typical African strong man, you get shafted around. The Germans elected Hitler, they never saw what hit them! In the US under the same constitution they experience two contrasting leadership styles - Bush - limiting civil liberties as well as practicing torture - water boarding et al. He even tried his hand in some kind of Cowboy adventurism in Iraq - using fraud that he was hunting weapons of mass destruction. Important as it is to have, too much faith in the new constitution is sheer folly. Under our current set of laws Moi did what he did. Under the same frame work Kibaki has exercised amazing tolerance and spurred economic improvement as well as accommodating and sponsoring a culture of civil liberties that flourishes. This teaches us that it is not so much the constitution but the cultures inculcated in people and the choice of leadership they pick. That’s why in my previous post I have sought to disabuse people of the view that the coming of the new constitution is a panacea of sorts. After all is said and done, I want Kenya to have a new constitution, and so pronto, but I know better than expect that it’s the saviour to sort out all our problems. The road to the new constitution however ought to be as inclusive as possible to give Kenyans a ownership feeling as well as make them at ease with the way they are governed. Dunia ni msongamano..
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/7/2008 Posts: 95 Location: Embu
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For me change or all i want and for change I will vote whatever the outcome. I have grown up with this 'Search for new constitution' term and im sick of it! and i pray after August 4th I wont hear of it again!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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@B.Timer: My point on dividing the country down the middle was probably taken out of context.
I meant to say that A constitution to govern us ought to muster a near universal acceptance.
Having one passed by a low threshold as this one seems headed to is not good for serious society.
I hence proposed the small sacrifice to nip that imminent wrong in the bud, by allowing a short time out to caucus and widen the acceptance scope.
I love how Wazuans are issues oriented, seriously its a rare forum. However, we must be alert to the political dimensions which significantly shape the whole debate. Thats why I don't shy from naming names, after all the whole affair is political and cannot be debated in isolation. Having said that:
My take on this:
This has been used by church leaders and "watermelons", this is hypocrisy of the highest order. Not even the church itself has this "near universal" agreement even on the "holy book itself" there are over 50 versions of the Bible, a million sects and denominations etc. We must not be blind to the politics of the whole debate.
The NO team simply does not care about the peoples' welfare even as they posture themselves as pointing out the defects of the Draft law. They simply look at their personal positions after August 4th. Watch this space after Aug 4th, I don't foresee any of the busy bodies agitating for the amendments they so loudly agitate for.
@Mtufunny,lets not be too cynical because leadership will evolve if and when the requisite institutions are in place. Lets give credit where its due we must appreciate that this government has gone one step better than the KANU regime, we have a draft and the political will to push it through.
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