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Devolution Revenue Sharing Formula
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Hon Oscar Sudi making lots of sense on this issue.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/10/2015 Posts: 961 Location: Kenya
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/10/2015 Posts: 961 Location: Kenya
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/10/2015 Posts: 961 Location: Kenya
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Turkanas are also even processing fish for export and also exporting fish skins and leather. While nyinyi huko central are busy hawking mali mali from china. Who is poor and marginalised? http://www.fao.org/fao-s...s/article/en/c/1171688/
Proverbs 13:11 Dishonest money dwindles away, but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/10/2015 Posts: 961 Location: Kenya
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Will this man catching all these fish daily, is he really poor and marginalised? FYI he's making more money than a farmer from central who has to wait for 6 months to harvest his sweet potatoes, avocadoes or bananas to take to the market. The fact that the fisherman has chosen to live in an grass thatched house due to his culture and also due to the intense turkana heat should not deceive you that he is poor, he could be a millionaire and should be the one one subsidizing the poor hawker in othaya. NB he sells each fish at 200 bob. Proverbs 13:11 Dishonest money dwindles away, but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/10/2015 Posts: 961 Location: Kenya
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Is this somali marginalised? With his 100 camels, each worth 100k, he is a multimillionaire and you are still giving him more money eti coz he is "poor and marginalised". He should be the one subsidising that landless farmer in central who has only one cow. Proverbs 13:11 Dishonest money dwindles away, but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2009 Posts: 8,083 Location: Enk are Nyirobi
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sqft wrote:Is this somali marginalised? With his 100 camels, each worth 100k, he is a multimillionaire and you are still giving him more money eti coz he is marginalised. He should be the one subsidising that landless farmer in central who has only one cow. Before posting these photos, start by asking yourself... what is marginalisation, particularly in the context of Public Finance appropriation in the Republic of Kenya? Stop embarrassing yourself! Life is short. Live passionately.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/10/2015 Posts: 961 Location: Kenya
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/10/2015 Posts: 961 Location: Kenya
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/10/2015 Posts: 961 Location: Kenya
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Kirinyaga. They dont even have street lights.Wajir below. wako sawa
Proverbs 13:11 Dishonest money dwindles away, but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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@SQFT, when we started devolution, it was envisaged that national govt would have its roles with counties having their own National govt would be in charge of national roads & railways, for instance while counties would be in charge of county roads National govt has 85% budgetary allocation. The big discussion we're having today is about the allocation of the smaller pie-15% Now because national govt got such a huge allocation, their scope has crept into county functions. For instance, in my constituency, govt recently tarmacked a small intra county road. Actually, it's an intra constituency road. Can't be more than 10KMs. If devolution was to work the way it was intended, such a road would've been left to county govt not KURA/KERRA National govt development is likely to follow population density due to many reasons but including POLITICS. You don't want to lose votes in a densely populated area, do you? So our big communities(not just Mt Kenya!) continnue to benefit while erstwhile marginalised areas remain down. As for corruption, that's a separate discussion & it's true there's likely higher % theft in the NFD counties than in the rest of the country.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/5/2010 Posts: 2,459
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Dr Ndii explained the issues very well in an article published by the online magazine, The Elephant. The untapped agricultural potential of marsabit county stood out for me.
In an ideal world we should continue giving more cash to the NFD counties. But in reality, we know the county allocation will not achieve much.
What if we used the CRA formula to allocate the national government's development budget to counties ? Again, this only happens in Utopia.
MY take ...... let's bite the bullet and go with the new formula.
BtW let us not lose sight of the fact that this is a political decision. So far, mount kenya people have been told that their money is being given to those who have larger geographical areas. The siege mentality has worked as expected and kyuk tangatanga politicians have had to quickly change positions and join their kieleweke colleagues, lest they be branded as enemies of the community. The weak link will definitely come from north rift. WSR will have to decide between the 700K NFD votes or 5M from central.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/13/2015 Posts: 1,590
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FRM2011 wrote:Dr Ndii explained the issues very well in an article published by the online magazine, The Elephant. The untapped agricultural potential of marsabit county stood out for me.
In an ideal world we should continue giving more cash to the NFD counties. But in reality, we know the county allocation will not achieve much.
What if we used the CRA formula to allocate the national government's development budget to counties ? Again, this only happens in Utopia.
MY take ...... let's bite the bullet and go with the new formula.
BtW let us not lose sight of the fact that this is a political decision. So far, mount kenya people have been told that their money is being given to those who have larger geographical areas. The siege mentality has worked as expected and kyuk tangatanga politicians have had to quickly change positions and join their kieleweke colleagues, lest they be branded as enemies of the community. The weak link will definitely come from north rift. WSR will have to decide between the 700K NFD votes or 5M from central. Dr Ndii was the main author on the chapter on public finance in our katiba. The kind of provisions inserted in this chapter enabled the executive to mortgage the country with all manner of debt to spread development around the country even though the productivity of some areas was questionable. The economic malaise we are facing is really attributable to that sloppy drafting on chapter on public finance. Like in Argentina it can go on for decades if we are not careful. I would treat Dr. Ndii's article with a sack of salt, it's motivated by remorse. He assumed angels would govern.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Population should be a very big factor, in that Nairobi should get 24B and Kirinyaga 4B per tge formula. Giving Nairobi 15B is taking just too much away from taxpayers. Moses Kuria is right money should go to the people "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore .
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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murchr wrote:limanika wrote:murchr wrote:limanika wrote:murchr wrote:limanika wrote:murchr wrote:limanika wrote:That people still do not know that in current world order the way to develop is by exporting products and services and thus earn money (and not be given money for free) is very baffling. Makes you feel all this education was a waste if such basic principles are not obvious. Just give enough money to everyone in the street and see if anyone will report to work tomorrow. To some extent that's where were headed with this devolution model Do you understand public finance? This is about how the 14% 5% 30% of your money collected as taxes should be used. Wachana na exporting bla bla... ata Kenya ikiexport hewa how will the govt share out the 15% mandated by the constitution to counties? Do you understand terms like GDP, how economy is measured and works etc? When national govt gives money to a county, and the county uses that money to buy guzzlers, take bench marking trips, etc, does that grow the economy and help govt generate new money to give the same county in the next financial year? That's not the point of discussion here. Its about sharing the national cake. No matter how big the GDP is grown It's all connected together my dear, like a jigsaw puzzle. You waste money here and it affects everything else. Does it strike you that govt debt has grown to upwards of 6 trillion from about 1.5T in 2013? Over same period govt has baked a cake worth close to 3trillion and given to counties? Does this tell you that the cake you are talking about was actually baked using borrowed money? Now, what do counties do with this cake? When counties mis-use this money, will the govt be able to generate new money to pay off the loan and give new money in the next financial year? Does that explain why govt is ever on borrowing spree - acquiring new loans to pay off old ones that get due? If you extrapolate this type of borrowing and waste over next 5-10 yrs, it is only by divine intervention if this country does not get into a financial crisis. But what if this 3 Trillion was used to give incentives, tax breaks, subsidize cost of power, etc so our industries get more competitive? Do you get the connection? What Senate should have asked themselves is, for instance, the 80billion that has been given to Turkana in the last 8 years, how much of it is of real impact to the economy and helping to generate new money to keep giving to Turkana? If they can get an equation out of this and use it to re-calibrate this devolution, then that's the only way we can avoid debt crisis Kwanza Usiniite dear. 2. The constitution says that the county govts should get 15% of the country's budget. Whether the GDP is growing of shrinking upto 15% of the monies in the budget should go to counties. 3. The work of the senators is not to determine how counties use the money, theirs is to see accountability at the end of the day. That's why there are audit reports and summons to explain how these gov appropriated or misappropriated the money. If you have a useless gov who thinks the whole amount should be used to pay salaries shauri yenu as residents, you elected him. 4. So the matter under discussion is what should be considered while sharing this 15%? Poverty? Population? Marginalization? development index? etc Whatever the county gets its up to the governor and the county assemblies to decide how to use it whether to grow wealth or pay it as salaries. That discussion happens in individual counties not with the senate. Good you brought out the constitution, that's actually where the problem is. Can you point to any sound economic basis that was used to set this 15%? It was set by politicians not so much to develop the counties but to provide avenues for éating'. As for auditing by senators/MCA's, this also doesn't happen because the governors are able to 'buy' those who make noise. So we need to go back to the basics and come up with a formula that provides sustainable way of managing this devolution. Man was not made for the law. Law was made for man. So the constitution can and should be changed if something is not working. Not very intelligent of us to spend this money extravagantly year in year out and at the same time whine about growing/unsustainable debt. There's nothing wrong with the constitution. It is a fact that the government will spend money, 15% of that should go to counties by law. 85% can be used for other etcs that the national government wants to including paying its debt You still don’t get it, but am not surprised. Do you know with your 15% govt debt has grown by 4.5T (an equivalent of 15SGRs) over the last 8 years, but we cannot see anything close to another SGR anywhere? Who gives you money (borrowed money) and tells you go figure what to do with it, and after 1 year just come back I will give you a similar amount? I tell you if a Martian came from space and see we are doing in the name of financing devolution, he will just shake his head and go back to space.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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limanika wrote:murchr wrote:limanika wrote:murchr wrote:limanika wrote:murchr wrote:limanika wrote:murchr wrote:limanika wrote:That people still do not know that in current world order the way to develop is by exporting products and services and thus earn money (and not be given money for free) is very baffling. Makes you feel all this education was a waste if such basic principles are not obvious. Just give enough money to everyone in the street and see if anyone will report to work tomorrow. To some extent that's where were headed with this devolution model Do you understand public finance? This is about how the 14% 5% 30% of your money collected as taxes should be used. Wachana na exporting bla bla... ata Kenya ikiexport hewa how will the govt share out the 15% mandated by the constitution to counties? Do you understand terms like GDP, how economy is measured and works etc? When national govt gives money to a county, and the county uses that money to buy guzzlers, take bench marking trips, etc, does that grow the economy and help govt generate new money to give the same county in the next financial year? That's not the point of discussion here. Its about sharing the national cake. No matter how big the GDP is grown It's all connected together my dear, like a jigsaw puzzle. You waste money here and it affects everything else. Does it strike you that govt debt has grown to upwards of 6 trillion from about 1.5T in 2013? Over same period govt has baked a cake worth close to 3trillion and given to counties? Does this tell you that the cake you are talking about was actually baked using borrowed money? Now, what do counties do with this cake? When counties mis-use this money, will the govt be able to generate new money to pay off the loan and give new money in the next financial year? Does that explain why govt is ever on borrowing spree - acquiring new loans to pay off old ones that get due? If you extrapolate this type of borrowing and waste over next 5-10 yrs, it is only by divine intervention if this country does not get into a financial crisis. But what if this 3 Trillion was used to give incentives, tax breaks, subsidize cost of power, etc so our industries get more competitive? Do you get the connection? What Senate should have asked themselves is, for instance, the 80billion that has been given to Turkana in the last 8 years, how much of it is of real impact to the economy and helping to generate new money to keep giving to Turkana? If they can get an equation out of this and use it to re-calibrate this devolution, then that's the only way we can avoid debt crisis Kwanza Usiniite dear. 2. The constitution says that the county govts should get 15% of the country's budget. Whether the GDP is growing of shrinking upto 15% of the monies in the budget should go to counties. 3. The work of the senators is not to determine how counties use the money, theirs is to see accountability at the end of the day. That's why there are audit reports and summons to explain how these gov appropriated or misappropriated the money. If you have a useless gov who thinks the whole amount should be used to pay salaries shauri yenu as residents, you elected him. 4. So the matter under discussion is what should be considered while sharing this 15%? Poverty? Population? Marginalization? development index? etc Whatever the county gets its up to the governor and the county assemblies to decide how to use it whether to grow wealth or pay it as salaries. That discussion happens in individual counties not with the senate. Good you brought out the constitution, that's actually where the problem is. Can you point to any sound economic basis that was used to set this 15%? It was set by politicians not so much to develop the counties but to provide avenues for éating'. As for auditing by senators/MCA's, this also doesn't happen because the governors are able to 'buy' those who make noise. So we need to go back to the basics and come up with a formula that provides sustainable way of managing this devolution. Man was not made for the law. Law was made for man. So the constitution can and should be changed if something is not working. Not very intelligent of us to spend this money extravagantly year in year out and at the same time whine about growing/unsustainable debt. There's nothing wrong with the constitution. It is a fact that the government will spend money, 15% of that should go to counties by law. 85% can be used for other etcs that the national government wants to including paying its debt You still don’t get it, but am not surprised. Do you know with your 15% govt debt has grown by 4.5T (an equivalent of 15SGRs) over the last 8 years, but we cannot see anything close to another SGR anywhere? Who gives you money (borrowed money) and tells you go figure what to do with it, and after 1 year just come back I will give you a similar amount? I tell you if a Martian came from space and see we are doing in the name of financing devolution, he will just shake his head and go back to space. You're out of context and boring this conversation. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore .
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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murchr wrote:limanika wrote:murchr wrote:limanika wrote:murchr wrote:limanika wrote:murchr wrote:limanika wrote:murchr wrote:limanika wrote:That people still do not know that in current world order the way to develop is by exporting products and services and thus earn money (and not be given money for free) is very baffling. Makes you feel all this education was a waste if such basic principles are not obvious. Just give enough money to everyone in the street and see if anyone will report to work tomorrow. To some extent that's where were headed with this devolution model Do you understand public finance? This is about how the 14% 5% 30% of your money collected as taxes should be used. Wachana na exporting bla bla... ata Kenya ikiexport hewa how will the govt share out the 15% mandated by the constitution to counties? Do you understand terms like GDP, how economy is measured and works etc? When national govt gives money to a county, and the county uses that money to buy guzzlers, take bench marking trips, etc, does that grow the economy and help govt generate new money to give the same county in the next financial year? That's not the point of discussion here. Its about sharing the national cake. No matter how big the GDP is grown It's all connected together my dear, like a jigsaw puzzle. You waste money here and it affects everything else. Does it strike you that govt debt has grown to upwards of 6 trillion from about 1.5T in 2013? Over same period govt has baked a cake worth close to 3trillion and given to counties? Does this tell you that the cake you are talking about was actually baked using borrowed money? Now, what do counties do with this cake? When counties mis-use this money, will the govt be able to generate new money to pay off the loan and give new money in the next financial year? Does that explain why govt is ever on borrowing spree - acquiring new loans to pay off old ones that get due? If you extrapolate this type of borrowing and waste over next 5-10 yrs, it is only by divine intervention if this country does not get into a financial crisis. But what if this 3 Trillion was used to give incentives, tax breaks, subsidize cost of power, etc so our industries get more competitive? Do you get the connection? What Senate should have asked themselves is, for instance, the 80billion that has been given to Turkana in the last 8 years, how much of it is of real impact to the economy and helping to generate new money to keep giving to Turkana? If they can get an equation out of this and use it to re-calibrate this devolution, then that's the only way we can avoid debt crisis Kwanza Usiniite dear. 2. The constitution says that the county govts should get 15% of the country's budget. Whether the GDP is growing of shrinking upto 15% of the monies in the budget should go to counties. 3. The work of the senators is not to determine how counties use the money, theirs is to see accountability at the end of the day. That's why there are audit reports and summons to explain how these gov appropriated or misappropriated the money. If you have a useless gov who thinks the whole amount should be used to pay salaries shauri yenu as residents, you elected him. 4. So the matter under discussion is what should be considered while sharing this 15%? Poverty? Population? Marginalization? development index? etc Whatever the county gets its up to the governor and the county assemblies to decide how to use it whether to grow wealth or pay it as salaries. That discussion happens in individual counties not with the senate. Good you brought out the constitution, that's actually where the problem is. Can you point to any sound economic basis that was used to set this 15%? It was set by politicians not so much to develop the counties but to provide avenues for éating'. As for auditing by senators/MCA's, this also doesn't happen because the governors are able to 'buy' those who make noise. So we need to go back to the basics and come up with a formula that provides sustainable way of managing this devolution. Man was not made for the law. Law was made for man. So the constitution can and should be changed if something is not working. Not very intelligent of us to spend this money extravagantly year in year out and at the same time whine about growing/unsustainable debt. There's nothing wrong with the constitution. It is a fact that the government will spend money, 15% of that should go to counties by law. 85% can be used for other etcs that the national government wants to including paying its debt You still don’t get it, but am not surprised. Do you know with your 15% govt debt has grown by 4.5T (an equivalent of 15SGRs) over the last 8 years, but we cannot see anything close to another SGR anywhere? Who gives you money (borrowed money) and tells you go figure what to do with it, and after 1 year just come back I will give you a similar amount? I tell you if a Martian came from space and see we are doing in the name of financing devolution, he will just shake his head and go back to space. You're out of context and boring this conversation.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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@SQFT, you bring some refreshing arguments, but even with this landmass/population debate, we’re just scratching the surface. If we are serious about equalization, we must then ask, where is the data?
What makes someone conclude that a particular county is relatively more developed and the other less developed? What are the parameters? What are the baselines? If access to healthcare is one of them, what is ratio of hospital beds to population? If access to education is one of them, what is the average number of students per classroom, and student to teacher ratio? Water, same argument. Turkana for instance, how many boreholes have they drilled over last 10 years?
Road network, and this is where I have a big break from jubilee, we need not upgrade all roads to tarmac standards. In most rural areas we can do by just upgrading roads to all weather status. At very least the only roads we need to have tarmacked are international trunk roads, roads branching from these trunk roads connecting county headquarters, roads from county headquarters to sub-county headquarters, major streets within towns, estate roads, etc. For all other roads, criteria to be based on number of vehicles using the roads, or whether there is a major economic activity whereby tarmacking the road will reduce cost of production.
If you consider such factors, then you will arrive at what the equalization fund should be, decide what the baseline year is, and then decide for how many years this should apply (it cannot be perpetual entitlement). In my view baseline year should be 2010 since all this data existed even then and can be retrieved. The monies given to these counties over last 8 years should be factored and deducted, since by now they should already have started to match their counterparts in some aspects with prudent use of the resources.
But the big question should always be, whatever money we give the counties, are they able to generate new money for us to be able to give them next year?
It is very surprising with all the scholarship and research in our universities nobody has a sound and sustainable formula on something so basic as how to fund devolution
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/19/2015 Posts: 2,871 Location: hapo
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limanika wrote:@SQFT, you bring some refreshing arguments, but even with this landmass/population debate, we’re just scratching the surface. If we are serious about equalization, we must then ask, where is the data?
What makes someone conclude that a particular county is relatively more developed and the other less developed? What are the parameters? What are the baselines? If access to healthcare is one of them, what is ratio of hospital beds to population? If access to education is one of them, what is the average number of students per classroom, and student to teacher ratio? Water, same argument. Turkana for instance, how many boreholes have they drilled over last 10 years?
Road network, and this is where I have a big break from jubilee, we need not upgrade all roads to tarmac standards. In most rural areas we can do by just upgrading roads to all weather status. At very least the only roads we need to have tarmacked are international trunk roads, roads branching from these trunk roads connecting county headquarters, roads from county headquarters to sub-county headquarters, major streets within towns, estate roads, etc. For all other roads, criteria to be based on number of vehicles using the roads, or whether there is a major economic activity whereby tarmacking the road will reduce cost of production.
If you consider such factors, then you will arrive at what the equalization fund should be, decide what the baseline year is, and then decide for how many years this should apply (it cannot be perpetual entitlement). In my view baseline year should be 2010 since all this data existed even then and can be retrieved. The monies given to these counties over last 8 years should be factored and deducted, since by now they should already have started to match their counterparts in some aspects with prudent use of the resources.
But the big question should always be, whatever money we give the counties, are they able to generate new money for us to be able to give them next year?
It is very surprising with all the scholarship and research in our universities nobody has a sound and sustainable formula on something so basic as how to fund devolution
My fren Kenyans go to campus to get a job..Do a masters to join a political party or become a "manager". Do their Phd's to lead a political party or become a PS who steals money. It's sad bad true. Very few are willing to do what it takes to come up with new ideas of doing stuff. Right now they are selling sukumas in the boot of their car 'coz of covid" Now you expect them to understand the difference between equal and equaitable? Hii kitu italeta shida tupu. Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/10/2015 Posts: 961 Location: Kenya
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limanika wrote:@SQFT, you bring some refreshing arguments, but even with this landmass/population debate, we’re just scratching the surface. If we are serious about equalization, we must then ask, where is the data?
What makes someone conclude that a particular county is relatively more developed and the other less developed? What are the parameters? What are the baselines? If access to healthcare is one of them, what is ratio of hospital beds to population? If access to education is one of them, what is the average number of students per classroom, and student to teacher ratio? Water, same argument. Turkana for instance, how many boreholes have they drilled over last 10 years?
Road network, and this is where I have a big break from jubilee, we need not upgrade all roads to tarmac standards. In most rural areas we can do by just upgrading roads to all weather status. At very least the only roads we need to have tarmacked are international trunk roads, roads branching from these trunk roads connecting county headquarters, roads from county headquarters to sub-county headquarters, major streets within towns, estate roads, etc. For all other roads, criteria to be based on number of vehicles using the roads, or whether there is a major economic activity whereby tarmacking the road will reduce cost of production.
If you consider such factors, then you will arrive at what the equalization fund should be, decide what the baseline year is, and then decide for how many years this should apply (it cannot be perpetual entitlement). In my view baseline year should be 2010 since all this data existed even then and can be retrieved. The monies given to these counties over last 8 years should be factored and deducted, since by now they should already have started to match their counterparts in some aspects with prudent use of the resources.
But the big question should always be, whatever money we give the counties, are they able to generate new money for us to be able to give them next year?
It is very surprising with all the scholarship and research in our universities nobody has a sound and sustainable formula on something so basic as how to fund devolution
If you use such metrics you will find that nairobi is the most marginalised. Public services such as health and education, water and sanitation etc are non existent. Go to kibera Olympic primary school, githurai or mwiki primary schools and you will be shocked, even the teachers have given up due to the hundreds of pupils crammed in one class. The county doesnt also have secondary schools and parents have to take their kids to schools in other counties. Do the middle class in nairobi realise that if they were to lose their jobs today and thus cant afford private education there are no public schools to take their kids? For health, only one hospital has been built since independence - Mama Lucy hospital. Why should all the millions of mothers in nairobi go to deliver at pumwani hospital? Cant the county have a maternity hospital in each ward or constituency. Access to water is another issue. All residents from runda to mukuru have to make private arrangements to get water from boreholes, tankers etc. Isnt it strange that we are celebrating that NMS has sunk a few boreholes in the slums? When it comes to housing, it is said that 75% of residents live in sub-human conditions in slums without running water, electricity, or toilets. Therefore you are right that we need to relook at how we define marginalisation or development. You will be shocked to find that nairobi is one of the most marginalised and has one of the lowest Human Development Index in the country. Proverbs 13:11 Dishonest money dwindles away, but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow.
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