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UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson
Lolest!
#51 Posted : Friday, February 21, 2020 7:21:13 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Quote:
I am rather confused with this whole notion of the entire Kikuyu nation being imprisoned. And I don't see how Iddi Amin being sent to fight Mau Mau could have imprisoned a whole tribe.

The soldiers were many, very many from KAR(where Amin served), the British Army, settler volunteers, police and tribal home guard.

So were people kept in prison like Kamiti? No. They were kept in walled concentration camps. Their homes were destroyed & burnt. From then on, movement into and out of these camps was controlled. There was a gate through which you entered the village and in many cases even the time one could leave the camp was limited to a few hours...like going to the fields, with escort & they'd hurry you up even before you could be done with your chores.

Not prison? Yes but very close. When you look at starvation, beatings,rapes & killings in the camps, it amounts to worse than prison!

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Lolest!
#52 Posted : Friday, February 21, 2020 10:01:54 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Quote:
On the issue of Muzungu killing thousands, consider that in 2008 alone, thousands died all because of our leaders.

PEV was circa 1500 lives lost. People killed in the 1950s range between 12K and 20K

Much earlier punitive expeditions would go as far as soldiers surrounding a village and indiscriminately shooting any moving human

At some point early in the colonial adventure, Meinertzhagen killed 1,500 people!
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wukan
#53 Posted : Saturday, February 22, 2020 7:59:46 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,656
radiomast wrote:

Take the Koinange family for example. Mbiyu Koinange was part of the Pioneer class at Alliance High school in 1926. A school that was founded by Muzungu missionaries. Then in 1931 he was sent to Ohio University. His father cannot have facilitated that move. It must have been the colonial government. His sister was one of the first African trained nurses. The colonial government was now intent on giving deserving students an opportunity to fulfill their potential. And Mbiyu Koinange from what I hear was a brilliant student. There were numerous examples like this.



Senior Chief Koinange wa Mbiyu was a wealthy man in his own right much richer than most British settlers in Kenya at the time who were kawaida middle class. I think he had over 600 acres of prime Kiambu land. The koinange ancestral was much larger than that before the British grabbed it. That's why he flew to London around 1930 to protest and we ended with Carter land commission. When his son was accused of Chief Waruhiu's murder he brought a barrister from London for the trial and mzunguz were shocked. Chief Koinange could pay American education for his son Mbiyu. America was the cheaper option for miros.

My grandfather not related to the Koinange used to afford high school education in India and Uganda and university in South Africa in 1940s. He got a tender to supply the British troops with food during WWII. So the Brits were not that bad but the local Brit settlers were petty-never liked a black man to succeed.

The Brit settlers were also corrupt. You should read the Rose Commission on corruption scandals in Nairobi when they were given grant money by the British govt to put up african housing in Ofafa and Mbotela. They cut corners with the indian contractors. They sold plots set aside for fire stations





madhaquer
#54 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 2:16:40 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/10/2010
Posts: 281
Location: Nairobi
@Radiomast, please study your history.
Understand the sequence of events in the region from the 1850's onwards. From 1895–1963 the British government took over from British East Africa Company.

My claim is based on what took place in the period from 20 October 1952 to around 1962 during what was called a state of emergency.

It is equally important to understand that despite the colonialists annexing the East Africa region to themselves, they only really settled in the highlands of Kenya, and handpicked the areas that were beneficial to the settlers for their cash crops and ranches.

In fact apart from Kenya, it is only in South Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia where there were actual settler communities. (immigrants who moved in with no intent of ever going back home). In all those countries, independence was delayed.

What is most despicable is that in Kenya power was handed over to the loyalists and not the actual freedom fighters. It is from here that the rot in the government and it's institutions like the judiciary and police force were actually inherited.
sqft
#55 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 3:16:17 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/10/2015
Posts: 961
Location: Kenya
madhaquer wrote:
@Radiomast, please study your history.
Understand the sequence of events in the region from the 1850's onwards. From 1895–1963 the British government took over from British East Africa Company.

My claim is based on what took place in the period from 20 October 1952 to around 1962 during what was called a state of emergency.

It is equally important to understand that despite the colonialists annexing the East Africa region to themselves, they only really settled in the highlands of Kenya, and handpicked the areas that were beneficial to the settlers for their cash crops and ranches.

In fact apart from Kenya, it is only in South Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia where there were actual settler communities. (immigrants who moved in with no intent of ever going back home). In all those countries, independence was delayed.


This is very true. They zoned off the white highlands as european only settlement areas. The locals were thus pushed from their lands to villages (staff quarters on european farms) to provide labour for the european farms. The coffee zones (which were in central kenya) were particularly prized because at the time coffee was very lucrative on the world market and was called the black gold.

Outside the white highlands (i.e mainly central and parts of RV), many locals would not have felt the impacts of colonisation. Infact they may even praise the white man like @radiomast is doing because the only white men they saw in their areas were the missionaries and the DOs/DCs who were building schools and hospitals and forcing locals to go to school.

NB: Nyanza and western werent settled because the white man feared malaria. The lowlands in eastern and southern kenya were arid and not suitable for crop cultivation and some areas also had tse tse flies and thus not suitable for ranching and therefore the white man made many such areas game parks for hunting and tourism. Also narok and kajiado had been reserved for the maasai after they were moved from laikipia to enable white settlement. Northern kenya (i.e beyond isiolo town), turkana, marsabit, northeastern etc were special operation zones where no white men or outsiders were allowed in except for the colonial administrators. Those areas were termed as the northern frontier district and in some of the areas, it was where the british were fighting the italians during the 2nd world war. The area was also notorious for raids particularly from ethiopian tribes.

The white man's plan was to turn kenya into the next new zealand or australia or canada where the natives were subjugated and lived as second class citizens....or even exterminated.
Proverbs 13:11 Dishonest money dwindles away, but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow.
radiomast
#56 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 5:17:07 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 428
Lolest! wrote:


So were people kept in prison like Kamiti? No. They were kept in walled concentration camps. Their homes were destroyed & burnt. From then on, movement into and out of these camps was controlled. There was a gate through which you entered the village and in many cases even the time one could leave the camp was limited to a few hours...like going to the fields, with escort & they'd hurry you up even before you could be done with your chores.

Not prison? Yes but very close. When you look at starvation, beatings,rapes & killings in the camps, it amounts to worse than prison!




These walled concentration camps would have to be massive to fit all the Kikuyus. Yaani everyone in Kirinyaga, Kiambu, Muranga, Nyeri and even those Kikuyus who were living outside central. And how many homeguards would you need? Given the staffing and infrastructure requirements , the colonial govt would have run out of money.

If all Kikuyus were being starved, the population would have been decimated from starvation and disease. Instead it appears that the population exploded during this period. And I believe it was because the Missionaries invested, building mission hospitals in central region a lot more than they did in others. So Kikuyus had better access to healthcare than other people.

And how do you explain the fact that many Kikuyus were thriving during this period. Kikuyus became highly educated. Take Mwai Kibaki for example. He attended Nyeri primary and then Mangu , both built by missioanaries. In 1955, the colonial govt saw it fit to send him to Makerere University.

Gikonyo Kiano also became the first Kenyan to earn a PhD during this period. He studied in California.

Very good schools were built in central region, giving the people access to education. And very good mission hospitals were built , giving people access to health. By contrast, Coast province for example didn't have scarcely any good schools.
radiomast
#57 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 5:20:17 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 428
Lolest! wrote:

PEV was circa 1500 lives lost. People killed in the 1950s range between 12K and 20K

Much earlier punitive expeditions would go as far as soldiers surrounding a village and indiscriminately shooting any moving human

At some point early in the colonial adventure, Meinertzhagen killed 1,500 people!



Im not sure where you got your number that 12K to 20K lives lost.

But if true then the Mwafrika is even with Mkoloni

1982 Coup: 150 dead
1984 Wagalla Masscare : 5000 to 10,000 dead
1991 Land clashes: 1500 dead,
1992 Molo clashes: 5000 dead
1997 Likoni Violence: 104 dead
2008: PEV 1500 dead
2017: Post election violence 100 dead

Not to mention the hundreds more killed everytime there is a political protest and the mysterious deaths of people like Adungosi, Musando, Jacob Juma, .......

Lolest!
#58 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 5:55:37 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
radiomast wrote:
Lolest! wrote:

PEV was circa 1500 lives lost. People killed in the 1950s range between 12K and 20K

Much earlier punitive expeditions would go as far as soldiers surrounding a village and indiscriminately shooting any moving human

At some point early in the colonial adventure, Meinertzhagen killed 1,500 people!



Im not sure where you got your number that 12K to 20K lives lost.

But if true then the Mwafrika is even with Mkoloni

1982 Coup: 150 dead
1984 Wagalla Masscare : 5000 to 10,000 dead
1991 Land clashes: 1500 dead,
1992 Molo clashes: 5000 dead
1997 Likoni Violence: 104 dead
2008: PEV 1500 dead
2017: Post election violence 100 dead

Not to mention the hundreds more killed everytime there is a political protest and the mysterious deaths of people like Adungosi, Musando, Jacob Juma, .......


Official number of those killed by colonial govt security forces was around 11,500.

British Media wrote:
Officially the number of Mau Mau and other rebels killed was 11,000, including 1,090 convicts hanged by the British administration.

However, unofficial figures suggest a much larger number were killed in the counter-insurgency campaign.

The Kenya Human Rights Commission has said 90,000 Kenyans were executed, tortured or maimed during the crackdown, and 160,000 were detained in appalling conditions.

David Anderson, professor of African Politics at Oxford University, says he estimates the death toll in the conflict to have been as high as 25,000.

He said: "Everything that could happen did happen. Allegations about beatings and violence were widespread. Basically you could get away with murder. It was systematic."


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-12997138

Quote:
Deaths among the Kikuyu were massive. Official figures gave the total of Mau Mau "killed in combat" as 11,503. Most were slaughtered in cold blood, many were entirely innocent, and the real total was probably over 20,000. By Caroline Elkins's estimate, at least 160,000 Kikuyu were detained (almost all without trial) and often brutally ill-treated. Torture was routine.

https://www.independent....ed-by-david-748263.html

Both 'Britain's Gulag' & 'Histories of the Hanged' delve deep into the subject of the atrocities of the 1950s Emergency. Have a look.

This was just one conflict. I have given you another case where in a punitive expedition 1500 Africans were killed. This was especially common in the early years of colonialism as they tried to prove who was boss.

In terms of bloodbath, the British beat all our leaders.

Your sources?
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radiomast
#59 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 6:02:42 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 428
madhaquer wrote:


In fact apart from Kenya, it is only in South Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia where there were actual settler communities. (immigrants who moved in with no intent of ever going back home). In all those countries, independence was delayed.

What is most despicable is that in Kenya power was handed over to the loyalists and not the actual freedom fighters. It is from here that the rot in the government and it's institutions like the judiciary and police force were actually inherited.


I actually agree with you that our first set of leaders were the biggest disappointment. They set Kenya on the wrong path.

Which is why I said that on balance, it might have been better if Independence was delayed until Mwafrika understood how to govern for the people.

The first set of leaders created a culture where people in power governed for themselves and their immediate famililes. Not for the people. Thats why today you see the grandchildren of Mbiyu Koinange fighting over an inheritance worth Ksh 14 Billion.

It would be much better if these billions were used for the betterment of Kenya e.g. building roads, hospitals etc. We have threads on wazua of people decrying the state of Kenyatta hospital and the poor state of roads and traffic.

It is precisely because our country ingrained a culture of looting. Everyone who assumes a leadership position goes in with the mentality that they have to loot as much as possible. Even people who are already wealthy like Kidero and Sonko.
Lolest!
#60 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19:59 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Quote:
These walled concentration camps would have to be massive to fit all the Kikuyus. Yaani everyone in Kirinyaga, Kiambu, Muranga, Nyeri and even those Kikuyus who were living outside central. And how many homeguards would you need? Given the staffing and infrastructure requirements , the colonial govt would have run out of money.
This is clearly a matter that you haven't read/ found out about. Villagisation happened. People who lived through it are alive and remember where the villages were.
If all Kikuyus were being starved, the population would have been decimated from starvation and disease. Instead it appears that the population exploded during this period. And I believe it was because the Missionaries invested, building mission hospitals in central region a lot more than they did in others. So Kikuyus had better access to healthcare than other people.
I am not disagreeing on the role of the white govt & missionaries in setting up health infrastructure. My disagreement is on brutalisation & deaths. The colonial govt was terrible
And how do you explain the fact that many Kikuyus were thriving during this period. Kikuyus became highly educated. Take Mwai Kibaki for example. He attended Nyeri primary and then Mangu , both built by missioanaries. In 1955, the colonial govt saw it fit to send him to Makerere University.

Gikonyo Kiano also became the first Kenyan to earn a PhD during this period. He studied in California.

Very many missed out as well. Some just missed out because their parents were associated with the 'terrorists'. Schools were closed just because they had been started by independent churches and nationalists. Again, missionaries education + health had played their part. Can't argue with that.


Very good schools were built in central region, giving the people access to education. And very good mission hospitals were built , giving people access to health. By contrast, Coast province for example didn't have scarcely any good schools

Mostly, Christian missionaries started these. We remain thankful for them.
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