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Rank: Member Joined: 2/15/2018 Posts: 428
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madhaquer wrote:
I would rather the corruption and backwardness we have today than the racism, poverty, violence, forced labor and hut tax of colonialism. Just go study the real history not the glamour perpetrated by the west.
1. Racism is just as bad as tribalism. Only those who are benefiting from tribalism don't think so. Those of us who are victimized by tribalism don't see it as any different from racism. 2. Colonial taxes were used to build schools, roads, airports, houses, railways, stadiums and other infrastructure. The Muzungu put the infrastructure to much better use than Mwafika has done. Institutions like Kenyatta hospital were built for Africans. Mwafrika has not built anything of that stature. All the stadiums in Kenya were built by Muzungu. Only Kasarani and Nyayo were built after independence. Most low income public housing in Nairobi was built by Muzungu. Mwafrika has left housing to individual landlords and slumlords to build substandard houses. Quote:What happened under the guise of colonialism would today be rightfully classified as genocide. Let me live free with this corrupt loyalists than suffer the racism and wrath of colonialism. Never again! Jomo, Moi, Kibaki and UK have all committed genocide as well. I would venture to say they have killed more Kenyans than Muzungu ever did. Waggalla masscare 1984, Kisumu Massacre 1969, Likoni Massacre 1991, Land clashes, PEV 2008, all the people killed during political protests , all the political prisoners killed and so forth .................
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/15/2018 Posts: 428
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In terms of land grabbing, Mwafika has stolen or grabbed for more public land than Muzungu ever did. The Kenyatta family alone has grabbed so much land that they can fit a medium sized county.
And every day you read in the papers how the grandchildren of independence era politicians are fighting over inheritance worth billions of dollars because these politicians were able to secure huge tracts of land through patronage.
Ati Kasanga Mulwa owns 3461 acres of land near Nairobi national park. How the heck did a judge pull that off during a time when judges made kitu Ksh 5000 per month ?
Ati Isaiah Mathenge owns 10,000 acres near Nyeri town and sijui Njenga Karume owns 20,000 acres in one of his plots.
https://www.ogiek.org/indepth/ind-who-owns-the-land.htm
The impact of this land theft is that:
1. Many were uprooted from their homes thus leaving them landless or forcing them to go live among strangers.
2. The cost of land is now super high thus reducing foreign investment this reducing jobs.Investors would rather go to Ethiopia where land is cheap and sometimes even free to investors. No wonder Kenyans are broke and jobless.
3. Land on which infrastructure was to be built was grabbed. Road reserves were grabbed. No wonder Nairobi traffic is insane.
4. Land for drainage channels was grabbed. Riverbeds were drained. No wonder Nairobi floods several times a year.
5. Meanwhile many Kenyans are landless and are uprooting forests at mau, causing extensive damage to environments, droughts and soil erosion.
And you think Mkoloni mistreated Africans?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/10/2015 Posts: 961 Location: Kenya
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radiomast wrote:In terms of land grabbing, Mwafika has stolen or grabbed for more public land than Muzungu ever did. The Kenyatta family alone has grabbed so much land that they can fit a medium sized county.
And every day you read in the papers how the grandchildren of independence era politicians are fighting over inheritance worth billions of dollars because these politicians were able to secure huge tracts of land through patronage.
Ati Kasanga Mulwa owns 3461 acres of land near Nairobi national park. How the heck did a judge pull that off during a time when judges made kitu Ksh 5000 per month ?
Ati Isaiah Mathenge owns 10,000 acres near Nyeri town and sijui Njenga Karume owns 20,000 acres in one of his plots.
https://www.ogiek.org/indepth/ind-who-owns-the-land.htm
The impact of this land theft is that:
1. Many were uprooted from their homes thus leaving them landless or forcing them to go live among strangers.
2. The cost of land is now super high thus reducing foreign investment this reducing jobs.Investors would rather go to Ethiopia where land is cheap and sometimes even free to investors. No wonder Kenyans are broke and jobless.
3. Land on which infrastructure was to be built was grabbed. Road reserves were grabbed. No wonder Nairobi traffic is insane.
4. Land for drainage channels was grabbed. Riverbeds were drained. No wonder Nairobi floods several times a year.
5. Meanwhile many Kenyans are landless and are uprooting forests at mau, causing extensive damage to environments, droughts and soil erosion.
And you think Mkoloni mistreated Africans?
But the white man grabbed the whole of kenya, a whole 580,000km2 or 481 million acres and designated it as crown land to do as he wished and put the natives in native villages to provide slave labour to the white mans coffee, tea, sugarcane, cotton, sisal etc farms and ranches. How could land grabbing get worse than that where a foreigner grabs a whole country? Proverbs 13:11 Dishonest money dwindles away, but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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radiomast wrote:madhaquer wrote:
See an excerpt from Elkin's book.
I soon realized that the British did detain the women and children, though not in the official camps but rather in some eight hundred enclosed villages that were scattered throughout the Kikuyu countryside. These villages were surrounded by spiked trenches, barbed wire, and watchtowers, and were heavily patrolled by armed guards. They were detention camps in all but name. Once I added all of the Kikuyu detained in these villages to the adjusted camp population, I discovered that the British had actually detained some 1.5 million people, or nearly the entire Kikuyu population.
That book sounds bogus. Colonialists can't have detained all Kikuyus. They simply didn't have the resources, the capacity and infrastructure to detain such a large population. Man, even if you have self hate you don't have to absolve the British from all their ills and deny historical facts A lot of people who were born then and were aware pf happenings are still alive today and say those things happened. If you're 're still anti Michela, read the other books about this era. Or try seeing those days through the eyes of a boy in Ngugi's Dreams in a Time of War. Real people experiences of executions,rapes etc
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/9/2009 Posts: 6,592 Location: Nairobi
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sqft wrote:radiomast wrote:In terms of land grabbing, Mwafika has stolen or grabbed for more public land than Muzungu ever did. The Kenyatta family alone has grabbed so much land that they can fit a medium sized county.
And every day you read in the papers how the grandchildren of independence era politicians are fighting over inheritance worth billions of dollars because these politicians were able to secure huge tracts of land through patronage.
Ati Kasanga Mulwa owns 3461 acres of land near Nairobi national park. How the heck did a judge pull that off during a time when judges made kitu Ksh 5000 per month ?
Ati Isaiah Mathenge owns 10,000 acres near Nyeri town and sijui Njenga Karume owns 20,000 acres in one of his plots.
https://www.ogiek.org/indepth/ind-who-owns-the-land.htm
The impact of this land theft is that:
1. Many were uprooted from their homes thus leaving them landless or forcing them to go live among strangers.
2. The cost of land is now super high thus reducing foreign investment this reducing jobs.Investors would rather go to Ethiopia where land is cheap and sometimes even free to investors. No wonder Kenyans are broke and jobless.
3. Land on which infrastructure was to be built was grabbed. Road reserves were grabbed. No wonder Nairobi traffic is insane.
4. Land for drainage channels was grabbed. Riverbeds were drained. No wonder Nairobi floods several times a year.
5. Meanwhile many Kenyans are landless and are uprooting forests at mau, causing extensive damage to environments, droughts and soil erosion.
And you think Mkoloni mistreated Africans?
But the white man grabbed the whole of kenya, a whole 580,000km2 or 481 million acres and designated it as crown land to do as he wished and put the natives in native villages to provide slave labour to the white mans coffee, tea, sugarcane, cotton, sisal etc farms and ranches. How could land grabbing get worse than that where a foreigner grabs a whole country? You also need to realize that that was a different time. It was during the era where you could conquer a territory and make it yours. The Romans did it, Alexander the Great, British even tried to conquer North America... The sad thing about now is that the land grabbers are our own people and going against the law. The reason it is so hard to win these many cases against colonization and slavery is because it was not against any law. Most will just remain to be very dark chapters of history, from even before the days of Jesus and that's all. Never forget that the human race is the most evil species on earth. BBI will solve it :)
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/15/2018 Posts: 428
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Lolest! wrote:
Man, even if you have self hate you don't have to absolve the British from all their ills and deny historical facts
A lot of people who were born then and were aware pf happenings are still alive today and say those things happened.
If you're 're still anti Michela, read the other books about this era. Or try seeing those days through the eyes of a boy in Ngugi's Dreams in a Time of War. Real people experiences of executions,rapes etc
How the heck can the British imprison the entire Gikuyu population. How many guards would they need? How large would this prison need to be? Also many Kikuyus prospered during the colonial era. Kenneth Matiba's father apparently was a wealthy businessman and among the first Africans to own a car. Matiba himself was appointed as a PS by the colonial government. I am not absolving the Brits of atrocities. I am saying Africans have done worse long term damage. Kenya is a sheet-hole precisely because of Africans not because of Muzungu. In fact without Muzungu, Kenya would be in worse shape. I am tired of politicians selling us on this idea that colonialism was bad, yet they are much worse. The log in the eye vs the speck in the eye
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/15/2018 Posts: 428
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sqft wrote:
But the white man grabbed the whole of kenya, a whole 580,000km2 or 481 million acres and designated it as crown land to do as he wished and put the natives in native villages to provide slave labour to the white mans coffee, tea, sugarcane, cotton, sisal etc farms and ranches. How could land grabbing get worse than that where a foreigner grabs a whole country?
The white man did not grab all of Kenya. he simply declared it part of the British empire. A declaration that had little impact on most Kenyans. In fact for many Kenyans their encounter with the white man was about the white man converting him to Christianity and making them go to school. My grandparents would've been illiterate peasants had they not been forced to go to school. In fact in my area, muzungu went around from home to home forcing parents to send their children to school during the 1930s and 1940s. Those Mwafrika who showed aptitude in school were sent to the UK to study how to govern the country. Some were sent to military academies in the UK. Some were sent to police academies and some were sent to Polytechnics. A lucky few were sent to Universities in the UK. So muzungu did not just want to exploit Kenyans. He had a long term view. He wanted Kenya to be part of the British empire but give Mwafrika the ability to properly govern his own territory. By the late 1950s, Kenyans were being given key positions in govt. As I said, Matiba was appointed PS. Muzungu built hospitals, schools, Universities, housing , stadiums and other infrastructure specifically for Mwafrika. In fact when KNH was built, it was called Native civil hospital; The slave labor issue is overblown. Africans actually gained food security because they learned better animal husbandry and crop production. Infant mortality rates were reduced significantly due to better access to health. Kenya becoming a British colony was not a bad thing on balance. We benefited from it more than we lost. Today there are some countries that are still colonies or territories of Western Nations USA has: Puerto Rico, American Samoa, US Virgin Islands .... The UK Has : Montesserat, Bermuda, Anguilla, Cayman, Virgin Islands ...... France has : Guadeloupe, Martinique, Mayotte, Caledonia, Re Union ...... Ask any of the Mwafrikas who live in these territories whether they would like Independence and 80% will give a resounding NO. They have seen the mess other countries have created with Independence. On evidence, it appears Kenya would be better off if we were still British territory. We likely would have the same freedoms we have today but the country would be better run. I disagree with the notion that Mwafrika is less intelligent. However I think most of us are incapable of good governance. We think that having a member of our tribe in power is more important than good governance. Thats one reason why Mwafrika countries are sheet-holes. We lack the willingness to plan ahead and delay gratification. Thats why when a Mwafrika leader engages in corruption, he pretty much loots everything in sight without any regard for what might happen in the future.
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Rank: Member Joined: 9/25/2008 Posts: 510
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radiomast wrote:sqft wrote:
But the white man grabbed the whole of kenya, a whole 580,000km2 or 481 million acres and designated it as crown land to do as he wished and put the natives in native villages to provide slave labour to the white mans coffee, tea, sugarcane, cotton, sisal etc farms and ranches. How could land grabbing get worse than that where a foreigner grabs a whole country?
The white man did not grab all of Kenya. he simply declared it part of the British empire. A declaration that had little impact on most Kenyans. In fact for many Kenyans their encounter with the white man was about the white man converting him to Christianity and making them go to school. My grandparents would've been illiterate peasants had they not been forced to go to school. In fact in my area, muzungu went around from home to home forcing parents to send their children to school during the 1930s and 1940s. Those Mwafrika who showed aptitude in school were sent to the UK to study how to govern the country. Some were sent to military academies in the UK. Some were sent to police academies and some were sent to Polytechnics. A lucky few were sent to Universities in the UK. So muzungu did not just want to exploit Kenyans. He had a long term view. He wanted Kenya to be part of the British empire but give Mwafrika the ability to properly govern his own territory. By the late 1950s, Kenyans were being given key positions in govt. As I said, Matiba was appointed PS. Muzungu built hospitals, schools, Universities, housing , stadiums and other infrastructure specifically for Mwafrika. In fact when KNH was built, it was called Native civil hospital; The slave labor issue is overblown. Africans actually gained food security because they learned better animal husbandry and crop production. Infant mortality rates were reduced significantly due to better access to health. Kenya becoming a British colony was not a bad thing on balance. We benefited from it more than we lost. Today there are some countries that are still colonies or territories of Western Nations USA has: Puerto Rico, American Samoa, US Virgin Islands .... The UK Has : Montesserat, Bermuda, Anguilla, Cayman, Virgin Islands ...... France has : Guadeloupe, Martinique, Mayotte, Caledonia, Re Union ...... Ask any of the Mwafrikas who live in these territories whether they would like Independence and 80% will give a resounding NO. They have seen the mess other countries have created with Independence. On evidence, it appears Kenya would be better off if we were still British territory. We likely would have the same freedoms we have today but the country would be better run. I disagree with the notion that Mwafrika is less intelligent. However I think most of us are incapable of good governance. We think that having a member of our tribe in power is more important than good governance. Thats one reason why Mwafrika countries are sheet-holes. We lack the willingness to plan ahead and delay gratification. Thats why when a Mwafrika leader engages in corruption, he pretty much loots everything in sight without any regard for what might happen in the future. I agree,I wish to endulge you some more, what I read from history is mostly bad but my great grandma and both grand parents narrated good things about the whites from effective medice, religion, food was big becuase both their white employers had grain silos and water dams which could be given to them in famine as part of wages. My great grandma used to milk cows for a "Bwana Amutala" corrupted name offcourse. If the british and S.A boers stayed and became citizens, the only challange would have been racism which we could defeat due to nyeusi numbers. may I add that grandpa converted to christianity and became a big time no nonesense Pastor. Mwafrica has scarcity mentality....even today...the way we chase money is wierd I AM trust in GOD, I AM belief in THYSELF
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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radiomast wrote:Lolest! wrote:
Man, even if you have self hate you don't have to absolve the British from all their ills and deny historical facts
A lot of people who were born then and were aware pf happenings are still alive today and say those things happened.
If you're 're still anti Michela, read the other books about this era. Or try seeing those days through the eyes of a boy in Ngugi's Dreams in a Time of War. Real people experiences of executions,rapes etc
How the heck can the British imprison the entire Gikuyu population. How many guards would they need? How large would this prison need to be? Also many Kikuyus prospered during the colonial era. Kenneth Matiba's father apparently was a wealthy businessman and among the first Africans to own a car. Matiba himself was appointed as a PS by the colonial government. I am not absolving the Brits of atrocities. I am saying Africans have done worse long term damage. Kenya is a sheet-hole precisely because of Africans not because of Muzungu. In fact without Muzungu, Kenya would be in worse shape. I am tired of politicians selling us on this idea that colonialism was bad, yet they are much worse. The log in the eye vs the speck in the eye I am not disagreeing on your point that black leadership has been bad, nay, terrible. I'm disagreeing with your insistence that like for like our leaders are far worse than the Brits. The Brits killed far more than our post Independence governments. From the time of using force to gain territory, using force to punish (The British in their punitive expeditions killed thousands in the whole country)... Matiba was only appointed PS in the run up to Independence. We already had Africans running the executive in concert with the governor even before he became PS. His appointment was part of the Africanisation drive those days. And yes, it was very possible to keep 3 tribes in concentration camps. It happened. Soldiers were all over plus the police and tribal police. Remember even Idi Amin was part of the army sent to crush the Mau Mau??
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/15/2018 Posts: 428
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I am rather confused with this whole notion of the entire Kikuyu nation being imprisoned. And I don't see how Iddi Amin being sent to fight Mau Mau could have imprisoned a whole tribe. Clearly Muzungu at some point reached the conclusion that it would be better to engage in education and betterment of Kikuyus and other Kenyans. Missionaries played a key role. Take the Koinange family for example. Mbiyu Koinange was part of the Pioneer class at Alliance High school in 1926. A school that was founded by Muzungu missionaries. Then in 1931 he was sent to Ohio University. His father cannot have facilitated that move. It must have been the colonial government. His sister was one of the first African trained nurses. The colonial government was now intent on giving deserving students an opportunity to fulfill their potential. And Mbiyu Koinange from what I hear was a brilliant student. There were numerous examples like this. Mwafrika on the other hand is giving government grants and scholarships to his relatives. These are supposed to be scholarships that are given to brilliant students who can come back home and fulfill a skill that is missing or is in shortage. For example. For a long time Kenya has had a shortage of qualified Neuro-surgeons. But Mwafrika chooses instead to award these government scholarships to his relatives as Kibaki was doing. . Now back to Mbiyu Koinange. Such a brilliant chap could have used to his talents for the betterment of the country. Kenyatta could have used him as a technocrat and policy expert. He schooled in America so he saw first hand how a properly functioning society works. He could have taken his experiences from America and brought them to newly independent Kenya. But instead, Kenyatta deployed him as a hitman to arrange for the deaths of politicians who actually wanted to do the right thing. And like a true Mwafrika, his stint in the cabinet was about ammassing immense wealth while leaving everyone else destitute. So today his grandchildren are bickering over the Ksh 14 billion in assets that he left. And the man did nothing for Kenya after he was sent overseas so that he could come back and make Kenya better. I sometimes think that some of these so called mashujaa were fighting for independence so they could get their hands on state resources. Not for the betterment of Kenyans On the issue of Muzungu killing thousands, consider that in 2008 alone, thousands died all because of our leaders.
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