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SGR officially dead. What next?
Rank: Veteran Joined: 4/1/2009 Posts: 1,885
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Impunity wrote:hardwood wrote:I understand the chinese have been surveying the lunatic railway to eldoret and kisumu. Seems plans have been underway to upgrade this reli.   Its not "upgrade" but to "refurbish"....githeri media don't know tofauti. it is hardwook who has said upgrade. or he is the githeri media?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2009 Posts: 8,083 Location: Enk are Nyirobi
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[quote=nairobby]SGR construction to end in Naivasha as funding wasn't be secured. Kenya wouldn't be able add 378 billion debt to finance Naivasha - Kisumu to its balance sheet anyway. What next now for this white elephant? https://twitter.com/citi...tus/1121837800247234560[/quote] Foolishly looking at the small picture. For your information: 1. Plans for standard gauge railway lines to connect East Africa to West Africa and Cape to Cairo; 2. Plans go back over 100 yrs ago when the British ruled most of Africa; 3. Landfaced countries have to invest in SGR before the landlocked countries, common sennse since railways must terminate at seaports hence Kenya has to commit before UG, SS, CAR; 4. Might not happen in your lifetime but will happen anyway. Historical attempts to connect the East to the West, around or through African well documented re. Vasco Da Gama and Suez Canal. Life is short. Live passionately.
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Rank: Member Joined: 7/1/2009 Posts: 272
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limanika wrote:I'm very happy China is asking the right questions. Now we need to know if there was ever a feasibility done for the Naivasha-Kisumu line that govt was using to solicit for the funds. If it was there, what is it that the Chinese were not happy with?. And does govt have any experts who could advise the feasibility was not adding up? why wait for cold water to be poured on your document in a foreign land? Though I highly suspect there was none. From my recollection, there was no feasibility study on the MSA-NBI section either. Kimunya, the Kibaki era minister reported that they got the SGR Chinese contractor to do the FS, despite the obvious conflict of interest in such an arrangement. I wouldn't call that a feasibility study, and the minister embarrassed us as a country.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/18/2019 Posts: 185 Location: kenya
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sparkly wrote:[quote=nairobby]SGR construction to end in Naivasha as funding wasn't be secured. Kenya wouldn't be able add 378 billion debt to finance Naivasha - Kisumu to its balance sheet anyway. What next now for this white elephant? https://twitter.com/citi...tus/1121837800247234560[/quote] Foolishly looking at the small picture. For your information: 1. Plans for standard gauge railway lines to connect East Africa to West Africa and Cape to Cairo; 2. Plans go back over 100 yrs ago when the British ruled most of Africa; 3. Landfaced countries have to invest in SGR before the landlocked countries, common sennse since railways must terminate at seaports hence Kenya has to commit before UG, SS, CAR; 4. Might not happen in your lifetime but will happen anyway. Historical attempts to connect the East to the West, around or through African well documented re. Vasco Da Gama and Suez Canal. Rail is ancient technology. Rail only accounts for 30% of freight in Europe. I don't know what magic you people think this railway will produce. The fact that we have to subsidise it to work says it all.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2009 Posts: 8,083 Location: Enk are Nyirobi
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nairobby wrote:sparkly wrote:[quote=nairobby]SGR construction to end in Naivasha as funding wasn't be secured. Kenya wouldn't be able add 378 billion debt to finance Naivasha - Kisumu to its balance sheet anyway. What next now for this white elephant? https://twitter.com/citi...tus/1121837800247234560[/quote] Foolishly looking at the small picture. For your information: 1. Plans for standard gauge railway lines to connect East Africa to West Africa and Cape to Cairo; 2. Plans go back over 100 yrs ago when the British ruled most of Africa; 3. Landfaced countries have to invest in SGR before the landlocked countries, common sennse since railways must terminate at seaports hence Kenya has to commit before UG, SS, CAR; 4. Might not happen in your lifetime but will happen anyway. Historical attempts to connect the East to the West, around or through African well documented re. Vasco Da Gama and Suez Canal. Rail is ancient technology. Rail only accounts for 30% of freight in Europe. I don't know what magic you people think this railway will produce. The fact that we have to subsidise it to work says it all. Africa is not Europe..Western Europe is size of Congo. Life is short. Live passionately.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/26/2007 Posts: 6,514
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Last mile challenges negate any real advantage rail has in Africa. They should have used the money for other things. Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/13/2015 Posts: 1,652
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sparkly wrote:nairobby wrote:sparkly wrote:[quote=nairobby]SGR construction to end in Naivasha as funding wasn't be secured. Kenya wouldn't be able add 378 billion debt to finance Naivasha - Kisumu to its balance sheet anyway. What next now for this white elephant? https://twitter.com/citi...tus/1121837800247234560[/quote] Foolishly looking at the small picture. For your information: 1. Plans for standard gauge railway lines to connect East Africa to West Africa and Cape to Cairo; 2. Plans go back over 100 yrs ago when the British ruled most of Africa; 3. Landfaced countries have to invest in SGR before the landlocked countries, common sennse since railways must terminate at seaports hence Kenya has to commit before UG, SS, CAR; 4. Might not happen in your lifetime but will happen anyway. Historical attempts to connect the East to the West, around or through African well documented re. Vasco Da Gama and Suez Canal. Rail is ancient technology. Rail only accounts for 30% of freight in Europe. I don't know what magic you people think this railway will produce. The fact that we have to subsidise it to work says it all. Africa is not Europe..Western Europe is size of Congo. That's what most people don't realize that Africa is really huge. Kenya is actually Africa-lite. There are parts of Africa that are really remote. SGR has to eventually link East coast to west coast. However it can't be done in a 10 year period the way Uhuru wants it. It will take time. Right now the economy needs a breather. Even China didn't start by building bullet trains. We need to learn to pace ourselves. From what I saw in the briefing China wants to dig in around Nairobi. Any project around Nairobi they looked willing to fund whether it's western bypass, southern bypass, Nairobi re-generation roads, affordable housing. Let's focus on Nairobi regeneration and attract the investors. Of course our silly politicians want to be seen to be spreading development all over like father Christmas instead of focusing on viable areas. Hopefully they learnt a lesson.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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I always wonder why people fear large projects. They should have taken this SGR all the way to Kampala atleast and possibly Rwanda. Every added mile means more cargo to/from Mombasa, hence faster pay off period. China at one time were building 6,000 miles of highway annually. And the sheer size of the OBOR should inspire Africans to dream surely. The road between China and pakistan through the Himalaya's is jaw dropping. We need to take risks, ama we shall perish with our midget projects that cannot exploit our vast resources fully. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 10,804 Location: NAIROBI
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:I always wonder why people fear large projects. They should have taken this SGR all the way to Kampala atleast and possibly Rwanda. Every added mile means more cargo to/from Mombasa, hence faster pay off period.
China at one time were building 6,000 miles of highway annually. And the sheer size of the OBOR should inspire Africans to dream surely. The road between China and pakistan through the Himalaya's is jaw dropping.
We need to take risks, ama we shall perish with our midget projects that cannot exploit our vast resources fully. What about the debt burden and economic viability Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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Ericsson wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:I always wonder why people fear large projects. They should have taken this SGR all the way to Kampala atleast and possibly Rwanda. Every added mile means more cargo to/from Mombasa, hence faster pay off period.
China at one time were building 6,000 miles of highway annually. And the sheer size of the OBOR should inspire Africans to dream surely. The road between China and pakistan through the Himalaya's is jaw dropping.
We need to take risks, ama we shall perish with our midget projects that cannot exploit our vast resources fully. What about the debt burden and economic viability True economic viability is key. Most of our economies in Africa are agriculture based (we produce same things more or less, so most trading is with other continents rather than inter Africa trade) so you need to ask, for instance, what's the economic benefit to be achieved by extending rail to CAR? Can we sail around the cape for the time being and focus on more urgent issues? I think what important for now is for landlocked countries to be linked to sea through the shortest route. For CAR the shortest route is through Cameroon. The last mile can be done later.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 14,211 Location: nairobi
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limanika wrote:Ericsson wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:I always wonder why people fear large projects. They should have taken this SGR all the way to Kampala atleast and possibly Rwanda. Every added mile means more cargo to/from Mombasa, hence faster pay off period.
China at one time were building 6,000 miles of highway annually. And the sheer size of the OBOR should inspire Africans to dream surely. The road between China and pakistan through the Himalaya's is jaw dropping.
We need to take risks, ama we shall perish with our midget projects that cannot exploit our vast resources fully. What about the debt burden and economic viability True economic viability is key. Most of our economies in Africa are agriculture based (we produce same things more or less, so most trading is with other continents rather than inter Africa trade) so you need to ask, for instance, what's the economic benefit to be achieved by extending rail to CAR? Can we sail around the cape for the time being and focus on more urgent issues? I think what important for now is for landlocked countries to be linked to sea through the shortest route. For CAR the shortest route is through Cameroon. The last mile can be done later. If we continue holding back, when do we develop. Imagine if Kibaki held a similar mindset on infrastructure.. SGR remains a good idea for Kenya but which was abused via fictional lane compensation, corruption etc that led to an illogical cost
KQ ABP 4.26
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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obiero wrote:limanika wrote:Ericsson wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:I always wonder why people fear large projects. They should have taken this SGR all the way to Kampala atleast and possibly Rwanda. Every added mile means more cargo to/from Mombasa, hence faster pay off period.
China at one time were building 6,000 miles of highway annually. And the sheer size of the OBOR should inspire Africans to dream surely. The road between China and pakistan through the Himalaya's is jaw dropping.
We need to take risks, ama we shall perish with our midget projects that cannot exploit our vast resources fully. What about the debt burden and economic viability True economic viability is key. Most of our economies in Africa are agriculture based (we produce same things more or less, so most trading is with other continents rather than inter Africa trade) so you need to ask, for instance, what's the economic benefit to be achieved by extending rail to CAR? Can we sail around the cape for the time being and focus on more urgent issues? I think what important for now is for landlocked countries to be linked to sea through the shortest route. For CAR the shortest route is through Cameroon. The last mile can be done later. If we continue holding back, when do we develop. Imagine if Kibaki held a similar mindset on infrastructure.. SGR remains a good idea for Kenya but which was abused via fictional lane compensation, corruption etc that led to an illogical cost SGR was very good, noble idea. Problem was that the procurement and construction process was not tailored to ensure viability. Where in the world does it cost 1b to lay 1 km of 2 metal tracks? SGR is good, but NOT at ANY cost.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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Ericsson wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:I always wonder why people fear large projects. They should have taken this SGR all the way to Kampala atleast and possibly Rwanda. Every added mile means more cargo to/from Mombasa, hence faster pay off period.
China at one time were building 6,000 miles of highway annually. And the sheer size of the OBOR should inspire Africans to dream surely. The road between China and pakistan through the Himalaya's is jaw dropping.
We need to take risks, ama we shall perish with our midget projects that cannot exploit our vast resources fully. What about the debt burden and economic viability 100 years ago, some random white guys came to Kenya and immediately saw the economic viability of building a railway line from Mombasa to western Uganda, why can't we see the same. Its a chicken and eggs situation but its been proven over and over that go-to market strategy is as important as production, so good reliable, cheap transport and distribution networks are as important in extracting utility of a product or an economy. The corruption, looting and theft is very disturbing and I want to argue for the SGR at its true price, we shuould be fighting to have it built at its true costs and not abandoned because someone will steal half the cost. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:Ericsson wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:I always wonder why people fear large projects. They should have taken this SGR all the way to Kampala atleast and possibly Rwanda. Every added mile means more cargo to/from Mombasa, hence faster pay off period.
China at one time were building 6,000 miles of highway annually. And the sheer size of the OBOR should inspire Africans to dream surely. The road between China and pakistan through the Himalaya's is jaw dropping.
We need to take risks, ama we shall perish with our midget projects that cannot exploit our vast resources fully. What about the debt burden and economic viability 100 years ago, some random white guys came to Kenya and immediately saw the economic viability of building a railway line from Mombasa to western Uganda, why can't we see the same. Its a chicken and eggs situation but its been proven over and over that go-to market strategy is as important as production, so good reliable, cheap transport and distribution networks are as important in extracting utility of a product or an economy. The corruption, looting and theft is very disturbing and I want to argue for the SGR at its true price, we shuould be fighting to have it built at its true costs and not abandoned because someone will steal half the cost. Why could they not upgrade the existing railway track to SGR standard? They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 10,804 Location: NAIROBI
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tom_boy wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:Ericsson wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:I always wonder why people fear large projects. They should have taken this SGR all the way to Kampala atleast and possibly Rwanda. Every added mile means more cargo to/from Mombasa, hence faster pay off period.
China at one time were building 6,000 miles of highway annually. And the sheer size of the OBOR should inspire Africans to dream surely. The road between China and pakistan through the Himalaya's is jaw dropping.
We need to take risks, ama we shall perish with our midget projects that cannot exploit our vast resources fully. What about the debt burden and economic viability 100 years ago, some random white guys came to Kenya and immediately saw the economic viability of building a railway line from Mombasa to western Uganda, why can't we see the same. Its a chicken and eggs situation but its been proven over and over that go-to market strategy is as important as production, so good reliable, cheap transport and distribution networks are as important in extracting utility of a product or an economy. The corruption, looting and theft is very disturbing and I want to argue for the SGR at its true price, we shuould be fighting to have it built at its true costs and not abandoned because someone will steal half the cost. Why could they not upgrade the existing railway track to SGR standard? There is no money to exchange hands/grease palms in upgrading Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
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SGR officially dead. What next?
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