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Getting into the garden of Eden
tycho
#1 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 6:56:53 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Maybe it's good news to announce that it can be shown that the garden is a geometric-mystical construction in abstract space-time.

I have no doubt at the moment that the Genesis account is as scientific as it is allegorical.

How we of this generation can begin to understand and enter into the garden is another matter all together.

But, for sure, the trees are at the center of the garden, and the 4 rivers nourish it.

The big question for me, is, why has it been so difficult for humanity to deal with this matter?

Maybe Daniel or Hesiod have hinted the answer. Maybe if @tycho can figure the garden out, then we are in revolutionary times indeed.
AlphDoti
#2 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 7:41:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
tycho wrote:
I have no doubt at the moment that the Genesis account is as scientific as it is allegorical.

How scientific is Daniel 4:10-11 "The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth."

A tree is visible from all over the earth only the earth is flat, ehe? smile
Angelica _ann
#3 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 7:47:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,908
Some verses in the Bible were written by imaginative guys. Wonder whether they had access to the holly herb them days.
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
AlphDoti
#4 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 7:51:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
@tycho, there is another way to reach garden of Eden:

Genesis 11:1-9
4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens..."
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building.
6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
tycho
#5 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 8:03:08 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
I have no doubt at the moment that the Genesis account is as scientific as it is allegorical.

How scientific is Daniel 4:10-11 "The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth."

A tree is visible from all over the earth only the earth is flat, ehe? smile


There exists a science of dreams. It's related closely to the structure and functions of the mind and the universe. Maybe the universe is pure mind even!

Every memory is stored in what some have called 'Akashic space' under a homogeneous structure that may be akin to our contemporary 'Object-oriented model.'
Apricot
#6 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 8:07:30 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2011
Posts: 181
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
Maybe it's good news to announce that it can be shown that the garden is a geometric-mystical construction in abstract space-time.

I have no doubt at the moment that the Genesis account is as scientific as it is allegorical.

How we of this generation can begin to understand and enter into the garden is another matter all together.

But, for sure, the trees are at the center of the garden, and the 4 rivers nourish it.

The big question for me, is, why has it been so difficult for humanity to deal with this matter?

Maybe Daniel or Hesiod have hinted the answer. Maybe if @tycho can figure the garden out, then we are in revolutionary times indeed.


Indeed it would be good news if it can be shown that what you have said is true. However, even in the absence of such an announcement, I consider Genesis, as are most of the other accounts in the holy writ, as allegories. When taken as such, there remain no mysteries to be solved; and we should not create more where none exist. IMHO, humanity likes patterns, will actively seek patterns and will prefer lousy one, where none would suffice. I look forward to hearing what you find out.
First time in history we can save the human race by laying in front of the TV and doing nothing. Let's not screw it up
tycho
#7 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 8:08:10 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
AlphDoti wrote:
@tycho, there is another way to reach garden of Eden:

Genesis 11:1-9
4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens..."
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building.
6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.


That's what would appear to be the case.

But, what would take humanity to speak the same language? As long as there is no union with God, then it's not possible.

The explanation given appears to be a key and hint for the discerning reader about human design, and also of the minds of the historians involved in this narrative.

It may be important to note that these towers appear to be restricted in the late bronze and iron ages. Like the pyramids of Egypt.

So we have evidence of how human effort for one language without union with God has turned out.
tycho
#8 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 8:15:31 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Apricot wrote:
tycho wrote:
Maybe it's good news to announce that it can be shown that the garden is a geometric-mystical construction in abstract space-time.

I have no doubt at the moment that the Genesis account is as scientific as it is allegorical.

How we of this generation can begin to understand and enter into the garden is another matter all together.

But, for sure, the trees are at the center of the garden, and the 4 rivers nourish it.

The big question for me, is, why has it been so difficult for humanity to deal with this matter?

Maybe Daniel or Hesiod have hinted the answer. Maybe if @tycho can figure the garden out, then we are in revolutionary times indeed.


Indeed it would be good news if it can be shown that what you have said is true. However, even in the absence of such an announcement, I consider Genesis, as are most of the other accounts in the holy writ, as allegories. When taken as such, there remain no mysteries to be solved; and we should not create more where none exist. IMHO, humanity likes patterns, will actively seek patterns and will prefer lousy one, where none would suffice. I look forward to hearing what you find out.


If it's an allegory, then it must follow that there's a mystery. Otherwise, how would one account for the necessity of the allegory?

Again, if we trace these allegories, why do they go far back into the past, over different civilizations?

More powerful still are the references and efforts by the writers and characters in history who indicate that there's a need for understanding the hidden 'codes'.

In this case, it's more than a pattern that is up. We have even the practicability and usefulness of what is discovered.
Apricot
#9 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 8:54:21 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2011
Posts: 181
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
Apricot wrote:
tycho wrote:
Maybe it's good news to announce that it can be shown that the garden is a geometric-mystical construction in abstract space-time.

I have no doubt at the moment that the Genesis account is as scientific as it is allegorical.

How we of this generation can begin to understand and enter into the garden is another matter all together.

But, for sure, the trees are at the center of the garden, and the 4 rivers nourish it.

The big question for me, is, why has it been so difficult for humanity to deal with this matter?

Maybe Daniel or Hesiod have hinted the answer. Maybe if @tycho can figure the garden out, then we are in revolutionary times indeed.


Indeed it would be good news if it can be shown that what you have said is true. However, even in the absence of such an announcement, I consider Genesis, as are most of the other accounts in the holy writ, as allegories. When taken as such, there remain no mysteries to be solved; and we should not create more where none exist. IMHO, humanity likes patterns, will actively seek patterns and will prefer lousy one, where none would suffice. I look forward to hearing what you find out.


If it's an allegory, then it must follow that there's a mystery. Otherwise, how would one account for the necessity of the allegory?

Again, if we trace these allegories, why do they go far back into the past, over different civilizations?

More powerful still are the references and efforts by the writers and characters in history who indicate that there's a need for understanding the hidden 'codes'.

In this case, it's more than a pattern that is up. We have even the practicability and usefulness of what is discovered.


What is an allegory? According to Miriam Webster’s dictionary, it is “the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions, of truths or generalizations about human existence”.

Allegory therefore is symbolism, or figurative speech; and there doesn’t need to be a mystery beneath it. It is useful where things need not be explicitly stated, so that the proverbial “let those with ears hear”, is applicable.

Allegories are timeless.
First time in history we can save the human race by laying in front of the TV and doing nothing. Let's not screw it up
tycho
#10 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 9:04:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Apricot wrote:
tycho wrote:
Apricot wrote:
tycho wrote:
Maybe it's good news to announce that it can be shown that the garden is a geometric-mystical construction in abstract space-time.

I have no doubt at the moment that the Genesis account is as scientific as it is allegorical.

How we of this generation can begin to understand and enter into the garden is another matter all together.

But, for sure, the trees are at the center of the garden, and the 4 rivers nourish it.

The big question for me, is, why has it been so difficult for humanity to deal with this matter?

Maybe Daniel or Hesiod have hinted the answer. Maybe if @tycho can figure the garden out, then we are in revolutionary times indeed.


Indeed it would be good news if it can be shown that what you have said is true. However, even in the absence of such an announcement, I consider Genesis, as are most of the other accounts in the holy writ, as allegories. When taken as such, there remain no mysteries to be solved; and we should not create more where none exist. IMHO, humanity likes patterns, will actively seek patterns and will prefer lousy one, where none would suffice. I look forward to hearing what you find out.


If it's an allegory, then it must follow that there's a mystery. Otherwise, how would one account for the necessity of the allegory?

Again, if we trace these allegories, why do they go far back into the past, over different civilizations?

More powerful still are the references and efforts by the writers and characters in history who indicate that there's a need for understanding the hidden 'codes'.

In this case, it's more than a pattern that is up. We have even the practicability and usefulness of what is discovered.


What is an allegory? According to Miriam Webster’s dictionary, it is “the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions, of truths or generalizations about human existence”.

Allegory therefore is symbolism, or figurative speech; and there doesn’t need to be a mystery beneath it. It is useful where things need not be explicitly stated, so that the proverbial “let those with ears hear”, is applicable.

Allegories are timeless.


All symbols arise because they refer to something.

You've put it well by saying, they are useful where things need not be explicitly stated. Why not be explicit?

Also, if allegories are timeless, yet they mean something 'to those with ears, and can hear' then it means that there are such timeless things that need the attention of hearing.
Apricot
#11 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 9:26:46 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2011
Posts: 181
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
Apricot wrote:
tycho wrote:
Apricot wrote:
tycho wrote:
Maybe it's good news to announce that it can be shown that the garden is a geometric-mystical construction in abstract space-time.

I have no doubt at the moment that the Genesis account is as scientific as it is allegorical.

How we of this generation can begin to understand and enter into the garden is another matter all together.

But, for sure, the trees are at the center of the garden, and the 4 rivers nourish it.

The big question for me, is, why has it been so difficult for humanity to deal with this matter?

Maybe Daniel or Hesiod have hinted the answer. Maybe if @tycho can figure the garden out, then we are in revolutionary times indeed.


Indeed it would be good news if it can be shown that what you have said is true. However, even in the absence of such an announcement, I consider Genesis, as are most of the other accounts in the holy writ, as allegories. When taken as such, there remain no mysteries to be solved; and we should not create more where none exist. IMHO, humanity likes patterns, will actively seek patterns and will prefer lousy one, where none would suffice. I look forward to hearing what you find out.


If it's an allegory, then it must follow that there's a mystery. Otherwise, how would one account for the necessity of the allegory?

Again, if we trace these allegories, why do they go far back into the past, over different civilizations?

More powerful still are the references and efforts by the writers and characters in history who indicate that there's a need for understanding the hidden 'codes'.

In this case, it's more than a pattern that is up. We have even the practicability and usefulness of what is discovered.


What is an allegory? According to Miriam Webster’s dictionary, it is “the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions, of truths or generalizations about human existence”.

Allegory therefore is symbolism, or figurative speech; and there doesn’t need to be a mystery beneath it. It is useful where things need not be explicitly stated, so that the proverbial “let those with ears hear”, is applicable.

Allegories are timeless.


All symbols arise because they refer to something.

You've put it well by saying, they are useful where things need not be explicitly stated. Why not be explicit?

Also, if allegories are timeless, yet they mean something 'to those with ears, and can hear' then it means that there are such timeless things that need the attention of hearing.


Pattern seeking mammals tune out explicitly state truths. There can be no mystery to unravel. No conspiracy to create from varied interpretation.

When a position is stated allegorically, those in kinship with the authors will understand the deeper meaning; those not will either be left out or seek alternative truths.

It may be that in the past, allegories were a vehicle for separating entities (cultural, religious), inasmuch as communicating a moral position tacitly.
First time in history we can save the human race by laying in front of the TV and doing nothing. Let's not screw it up
tycho
#12 Posted : Thursday, December 13, 2018 9:38:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
[/quote]

Pattern seeking mammals tune out explicitly state truths. There can be no mystery to unravel. No conspiracy to create from varied interpretation.

When a position is stated allegorically, those in kinship with the authors will understand the deeper meaning; those not will either be left out or seek alternative truths.

It may be that in the past, allegories were a vehicle for separating entities (cultural, religious), inasmuch as communicating a moral position tacitly.
[/quote]

Let's start by assuming that your assertions are in fact credible. Would we stop there and say that there's a possibility that there's no mystery or hidden meaning, and do nothing?

Let's talk about mammals and explicitness: I suspect that you're a mammal. Are you being explicit now, and are you dealing with patterns?

In the case of kinship and understanding, why does it not hold for cross cultural comparisons even in cases with no direct contact?

I agree that in the past allegories could have been used to separate entities. But why would this be important?
Apricot
#13 Posted : Friday, December 14, 2018 12:01:20 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2011
Posts: 181
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
Apricot wrote:
tycho wrote:


Pattern seeking mammals tune out explicitly state truths. There can be no mystery to unravel. No conspiracy to create from varied interpretation.

When a position is stated allegorically, those in kinship with the authors will understand the deeper meaning; those not will either be left out or seek alternative truths.

It may be that in the past, allegories were a vehicle for separating entities (cultural, religious), inasmuch as communicating a moral position tacitly.


Let's start by assuming that your assertions are in fact credible. Would we stop there and say that there's a possibility that there's no mystery or hidden meaning, and do nothing?

Let's talk about mammals and explicitness: I suspect that you're a mammal. Are you being explicit now, and are you dealing with patterns?

In the case of kinship and understanding, why does it not hold for cross cultural comparisons even in cases with no direct contact?

I agree that in the past allegories could have been used to separate entities. But why would this be important?


To your first question about doing nothing, No; except to creating supernatural alternatives to explain what sounds mysterious. If we do so, we should be open to evolving as facts come in.

To avoid sounding like a tautology and spinning into infinite regress, why don’t you tender an opinion about my assertions to which I can respond.

First time in history we can save the human race by laying in front of the TV and doing nothing. Let's not screw it up
tycho
#14 Posted : Saturday, December 15, 2018 8:35:03 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
In the end, God, and the devil emerge as Kinds of interactive fields defined by mathematical equations, and how human computations interact with them.



tycho
#15 Posted : Saturday, December 15, 2018 8:38:46 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@Apricot, let me have some rest. I'll get back to you maybe tomorrow...
tycho
#16 Posted : Sunday, December 16, 2018 2:01:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
I think @Apricot is saying that humans will tend to seek complex explanation for simple phenomena like patterns.

And that generally, such complex explanations fail the Ockham's test.

This is a good point. So we need to describe the pattern, and find a) the simplest explanation and b) the complex explanation offered.

If a) satisfies ALL conditions of the pattern P, then the complex explanation C is unnecessary.

1. What's the pattern P? - An expression regarding the Tree of life across cultures, it being a basis of scientific practice within cultures and across, being a basis for relation within a culture, and being a reality created within the culture (a,b,c, and d)respectively.

2 (a) candidate Simple explanation S is: @Apricot - "There are no laws to explain the pattern"

2 (b) Complex/ 'Mysterious' explanation: For any Pattern P with elements (a,b,c,d) there must be a law of the energy interactions of the elements. Because each element is energetic,

i. Within each set P and ii. Across all sets P

If this presentation is correct then my opinion is that your offered answer doesn't meet element (b) of any set P.

So the candidate explanation fails.

sparkly
#17 Posted : Sunday, December 16, 2018 3:45:36 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
There are as many creationist theories as there are peoples of the world.

Even the book of Genesis has 2 different creation accounts.

There is no reason to believe creationist stories of middle eastern nomads, forced upon you by colonisers.
Life is short. Live passionately.
tycho
#18 Posted : Sunday, December 16, 2018 6:03:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
sparkly wrote:
There are as many creationist theories as there are peoples of the world.

Even the book of Genesis has 2 different creation accounts.

There is no reason to believe creationist stories of middle eastern nomads, forced upon you by colonisers.


When you look at the two accounts in Genesis, and the many conflicting accounts in the Bible then you can begin to understand what 'guys' are saying.

As for now, a superficial view would even suppose Genesis is not about evolution also.

And the restriction about the tree of life is even among atheists and very clear cut evolutionists.

When we argue, it's better not to do it from ignorance.
Apricot
#19 Posted : Sunday, December 16, 2018 9:19:05 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2011
Posts: 181
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
I think @Apricot is saying that humans will tend to seek complex explanation for simple phenomena like patterns.

And that generally, such complex explanations fail the Ockham's test.

This is a good point. So we need to describe the pattern, and find a) the simplest explanation and b) the complex explanation offered.

If a) satisfies ALL conditions of the pattern P, then the complex explanation C is unnecessary.

1. What's the pattern P? - An expression regarding the Tree of life across cultures, it being a basis of scientific practice within cultures and across, being a basis for relation within a culture, and being a reality created within the culture (a,b,c, and d)respectively.

2 (a) candidate Simple explanation S is: @Apricot - "There are no laws to explain the pattern"

2 (b) Complex/ 'Mysterious' explanation: For any Pattern P with elements (a,b,c,d) there must be a law of the energy interactions of the elements. Because each element is energetic,

i. Within each set P and ii. Across all sets P

If this presentation is correct then my opinion is that your offered answer doesn't meet element (b) of any set P.

So the candidate explanation fails.



Perhaps an example would express my view better. Hard core philosophy is not my forte.

Let take the example of Francis Collins – the scientist/geneticist in the Human Genome project. Despite his immense contribution to the working of DNA, he, like Newton, was obsessed with seeking spirituality in the numinous, whereas their talents could have greatly benefited biology (Collins) or Calculus (Newton). Francis Collins while hiking in the Cascade Mountains in Mississippi came across a waterfall frozen into 3 streams and that put him in the mind of the Holy Trinity. Newton himself was obsessed with the measurement of temple of Solomon and in Alchemy (converting base metal to Gold), but thankfully, that is not what we remember him for. Both had a mind of scientific inquiry, but were still able to put that aside and compartmentalize a part of their brain to seek complex patterns of human existence. The puzzle remains despite those efforts.

On Collins, I used this resource:
https://samharris.org/th...ase-of-francis-collins/

Although I wasn’t able to fully understand your argument above, going by Ockham’s razor “principle of economy”, this relies for its effect on disposing of unnecessary assumptions and accepting the first sufficient explanation or cause. "Do not multiply entities beyond necessities it says". Ockham by following his logic was able to conclude that “it was possible to know the nature of “created” things without any reference to their “creator”. In my opinion, this strongly aligns with my assertions.
First time in history we can save the human race by laying in front of the TV and doing nothing. Let's not screw it up
essyk
#20 Posted : Sunday, December 16, 2018 9:28:48 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/15/2011
Posts: 4,518
How to cook ugali

Bring water to a boil and add a little flour.
Allow the thick mixture to boil for a while before adding enough flour to make a thick paste.
Keep stiring and turning until it has the consistency that you desire.Some like hard ugali while others prefer it soft.
A well cooked ugali should not stick to the muiko.It also has a nice aroma.
Serve with Fish Beef Milk Eggs Mala Sukuma whatever you want!
"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.
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