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Weekly debates by an Atheist
MugundaMan
#261 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 5:35:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,211
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
AlphDoti wrote:

1. I tell you about my religious text: the true teachings of all prophets, including Jesus peace be upon him: "(Oh Allah) You alone we worship, you alone we ask for help." Quran 1:4. Say (O Muslims), "We believe in God and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Yaqub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Yaqub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Mûsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted." (Quran 2:136)

2. Why we don't eat pork? (i). Deuteronomy 14:3-8 - "...The pig is unclean; ...it does not chew the cud, you are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses." (ii). Matthew 5:17-18 that Jesus said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets."

3. What am I saying: To bear witness that there's non to be worshipped except the creator, Almighty God. Moses (Peace be upon him) said "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.", Consistent with the first of Ten Commandments given to Moses. Jesus (peace be upon him) said the greatest of the commandment is, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one", consistent with the first of Ten Commandments.



Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

So in your mind, based on that out of context (again!) set of verses you have just showed us, New Testament Christians are commanded by Jesus to perform Levitical Sacrifices, Observe Jewish Holidays and rituals, do ritual washing and cleansing and slaughter goats to take away their sins? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, my friend. I suggest you read the Bible cover to cover instead of regurgitating the few smatterings of verses you have been fed out of context by your spiritual leaders because if you do not understand the basics of the Christian faith it is impossible to have a coherent debate on the issues with you - on matters Biblical especially.
MugundaMan
#262 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 5:49:10 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,211
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
Apricot wrote:
MugundaMan wrote:
[quote=Apricot]

Quote:
The gospels contradict each other whether and when not doing so, they are growing the legend. No proof of the disciples or of Moses or of other characters in the bible can be adduced like that of Alexander the Greek or Pontius Pilate can be.


This is a complete fallacy. WHERE and HOW do the Gospels contradict each other. Please give us a few CONCRETE EXAMPLES of this so that we can take you seriously on this point.


If you care to listen to Professor Bart Ehrman, he lists dozens of contradictions in the bible. And Bart does not even consider himself a non-theist. I will find time to respond to your other assertions.

Bible contradictions



ha ha ha ha ha! You are the one being played by this fellow, because you are taking what he is saying as fact without actually reading the Bible for yourself to confirm whether what he is saying is true or not. And these are some tips that will help you weed through the deception:

1. Remember that there are numerous versions of the Bible; NIV, KJV, NASB, The so called Message and so many more. KJV is the closest it gets to the original scrolls. The message is a paraphrase of the Bible (I do not consider it at all to be an accurate representation of God's Word.) So when the prof compares one verse with another by comparing the KJV version of the former with the Message version of the latter, of course he knows you who swallow what he says as gospel will be easily convinced.

2. Think of the Gospels as a narrative in 4D. As I explained in an earlier post. Two people can be at the same event, and notice various aspects that slightly differ in the same storyline, but that does not invalidate the overall unity of the story. For example, you and I may be looking at a beautiful girl. You may describe her as having nice hair and cheekbones and a wry smile. I may say she has very nice assets and a pretty dress. Does this mean our accounts contradict? Of course not.

3. That all four Gospels written by four different authors of different backgrounds agree in stunning detail has confounded even some diehard atheists. The only safe refuge they have in explaining why this is so is that either there was a conspiracy after the fact or they all were a "forgery" yet all extra-Biblical historical evidence points otherwise.
AlphDoti
#263 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 5:58:08 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
MugundaMan wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:

1. I tell you about my religious text: the true teachings of all prophets, including Jesus peace be upon him: "(Oh Allah) You alone we worship, you alone we ask for help." Quran 1:4. Say (O Muslims), "We believe in God and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Yaqub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Yaqub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Mûsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted." (Quran 2:136)

2. Why we don't eat pork? (i). Deuteronomy 14:3-8 - "...The pig is unclean; ...it does not chew the cud, you are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses." (ii). Matthew 5:17-18 that Jesus said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets."

3. What am I saying: To bear witness that there's non to be worshipped except the creator, Almighty God. Moses (Peace be upon him) said "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.", Consistent with the first of Ten Commandments given to Moses. Jesus (peace be upon him) said the greatest of the commandment is, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one", consistent with the first of Ten Commandments.

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

So in your mind, based on that out of context (again!) set of verses you have just showed us, New Testament Christians are commanded by Jesus to perform Levitical Sacrifices, Observe Jewish Holidays and rituals, do ritual washing and cleansing and slaughter goats to take away their sins? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, my friend. I suggest you read the Bible cover to cover instead of regurgitating the few smatterings of verses you have been fed out of context by your spiritual leaders because if you do not understand the basics of the Christian faith it is impossible to have a coherent debate on the issues with you - matters Biblical especially.

Jesus pbuh never ate swine as taught in Leviticus 11:7, (Vyakula Najisi) - BWANA akawaambia Mose na Aroni, "Waambie Waisraeli: lakini hao kamwe msiwale. Naye nguruwe ingawa anazo kwato zilizogawanyika sehemu mbili, lakini hacheui, ni najisi kwenu. Kamwe msile nyama yao wala kugusa mizoga yao, wao ni najisi kwenu.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 that: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets..."
AlphDoti
#264 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:05:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
MugundaMan wrote:
Apricot wrote:
MugundaMan wrote:
[quote=Apricot]

Quote:
The gospels contradict each other whether and when not doing so, they are growing the legend. No proof of the disciples or of Moses or of other characters in the bible can be adduced like that of Alexander the Greek or Pontius Pilate can be.

This is a complete fallacy. WHERE and HOW do the Gospels contradict each other. Please give us a few CONCRETE EXAMPLES of this so that we can take you seriously on this point.

If you care to listen to Professor Bart Ehrman, he lists dozens of contradictions in the bible. And Bart does not even consider himself a non-theist. I will find time to respond to your other assertions.

Bible contradictions
ha ha ha ha ha! You are the one being played by this fellow, because you are taking what he is saying as fact without actually reading the Bible for yourself to confirm whether what he is saying is true or not. And these are some tips that will help you weed through the deception:

1. Remember that there are numerous versions of the Bible; NIV, KJV, NASB, The so called Message and so many more. KJV is the closest it gets to the original scrolls. The message is a paraphrase of the Bible (I do not consider it at all to be an accurate representation of God's Word.) So when the prof compares one verse with another by comparing the KJV version of the former with the Message version of the latter, of course he knows you who swallow what he says as gospel will be easily convinced.

2. Think of the Gospels as a narrative in 4D. As I explained in an earlier post. Two people can be at the same event, and notice various aspects that slightly differ in the same storyline, but that does not invalidate the overall unity of the story. For example, you and I may be looking at a beautiful girl. You may describe her as having nice hair and cheekbones and a wry smile. I may say she has very nice assets and a pretty dress. Does this mean our accounts contradict? Of course not.

3. That all four Gospels written by four different authors of different backgrounds agree in stunning detail has confounded even some diehard atheists. The only safe refuge they have in explaining why this is so is that either there was a conspiracy after the fact or they all were a "forgery" yet all extra-Biblical historical evidence points otherwise.

Some of the CONTRADICTIONS in the Bible

(a) The "Lord" tempted David . . . 2 SAMUEL 24:1
or "Satan" provoked David . . . 1 CHRONICLES 21:1

(b) 700 or 7000? "Horsemen" or "Footmen" . . .? 2 SAMUEL 10:18 vs 1 CHRONICLES 19:18

(c) Solomon had 2000 baths or 3000 baths? 1 KINGS 7:26 vs 2 CHRONICLES 4:5

(d) Solomon had 4000 stalls of horses or 40000? 2 CHRONICLES 9:25 vs 1 KINGS 4:26

(e) Did Saul enquire of the Lord or didn't he? 1 SAMUEL 28:6 vs 1 CHRONICLES 10:13-14

(f) Heaven, no man hath ascended JOHN 3:13
Contradicted by: 2 KINGS 2:11 Elijah ascended, and GENESIS 5:24 Enoch ascended.

(g) Jesus lost "None" of his disciples JOHN 18:9
Contradicted by: He lost only "One" JOHN 17:12

(h) "ALL" are sinners 2 CHRONICLES 6:36
Contradicted by: "Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT
commit sin . . ." 1 JOHN 3:9
MugundaMan
#265 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:07:32 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,211
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Religion is very tricky.

Suppose an alien came to earth and without prejudice was sat through christian beliefs, then Islam beliefs, then Hindu, Jewry etc. whom would he believe to the exclusion of all others.

We are christian/Muslim/Hindu because we were raised in the geographic spheres of this religions. So as we defend our religions with zeal, spare a thought for your (hypothetical self) if Hinduism had colonized you and not Islam or MzunguLaughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

I would recommend all read about other religions that you do not subscribe to and you will be shocked at the similarities with your own. Chances are upto 85%,of the religious dogma is pretty much similar (good vs evil)regardless of religion.


Obi but this is the same thing the prophets of Baal said to Elijah. They alluded that their god was the real deal and all other gods were nonsense. Elijah told them he served the living God and challenged them to a duel. Slaughter an animal place it on an altar and call upon your god to burn up the carcass with a fire from heaven. The prophets of Baal accepted the duel and jumped around like madmen and even slashed themselves until they bled sore, calling upon Baal to heed their prayers. Wapi? Nothing happened. Elijah mocked them telling them their god must be asleep or on vacation! He then ordered the carcass to be drenched wet with loads of water, prayed to God and fire dropped from heaven and not only consumed the carcass and alter but the pools of water dry! That in essence is what God is telling you. Test your own gods to see if they are the real deal or not. When he sent his Son down to do signs and wonders such as raising people from the dead, walking on water and so on, by these signs he was showing He was the true God. The Judaists and the Ishmaelites will have no problems agreeing that God performed signs and wonders through Moses in getting the Israelites out of Pharaoh's clutch. Amazingly, despite this, they find it difficult to believe God's Son did everything he did and even rose from the dead to save all who believe. When Paul preached to the whole of the city of Athens at Mars Hill about the sermon about the unknown god, he said the exact same thing in Acts 17:29-31:

“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

So God - the creator of all we see- has made it crystal clear who He is and what He has done and what He demands. It is up to you and me to choose to either believe or reject this as his proof. If one rejects it and chooses to worship stones, idols, a man in the Arabian desert whose nation (if they continue to disbelieve) was cast out of God's kindgom in Genesis 21: 10-12, or an asian man under a banyan tree who promises reincarnation, they only have themselves to blame IMHO. Shalom
MugundaMan
#266 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:13:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,211
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
AlphDoti wrote:

(a) The "Lord" tempted David . . . 2 SAMUEL 24:1
or "Satan" provoked David . . . 1 CHRONICLES 21:1

(b) 700 or 7000? "Horsemen" or "Footmen" . . .? 2 SAMUEL 10:18 vs 1 CHRONICLES 19:18

(c) Solomon had 2000 baths or 3000 baths? 1 KINGS 7:26 vs 2 CHRONICLES 4:5

(d) Solomon had 4000 stalls of horses or 40000? 2 CHRONICLES 9:25 vs 1 KINGS 4:26

(e) Did Saul enquire of the Lord or didn't he? 1 SAMUEL 28:6 vs 1 CHRONICLES 10:13-14

(f) Heaven, no man hath ascended JOHN 3:13
Contradicted by: 2 KINGS 2:11 Elijah ascended, and GENESIS 5:24 Enoch ascended.

(g) Jesus lost "None" of his disciples JOHN 18:9
Contradicted by: He lost only "One" JOHN 17:12

(h) "ALL" are sinners 2 CHRONICLES 6:36
Contradicted by: "Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT
commit sin . . ." 1 JOHN 3:9


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

See your life, my broda. You are now reduced to counting whether there two goats in a sheep-pen or not and adducing that as "proof" that the Bible is all wrong Laughing out loudly. And on the SUBSTANCE of each book - The Gospels especially - you are quiet as a mouse pointing out no contradictions. I have already given you a 3 tip guide above to help you understand some of these things. Please use it.
MugundaMan
#267 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:15:19 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,211
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
AlphDoti wrote:

Jesus pbuh never ate swine as taught in Leviticus 11:7, (Vyakula Najisi) - BWANA akawaambia Mose na Aroni, "Waambie Waisraeli: lakini hao kamwe msiwale. Naye nguruwe ingawa anazo kwato zilizogawanyika sehemu mbili, lakini hacheui, ni najisi kwenu. Kamwe msile nyama yao wala kugusa mizoga yao, wao ni najisi kwenu.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 that: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets..."



Alpha you are now going around in circles, have you read any of the Pauline letters explaining the matter or foods, rituals and the like? I think not. This is why your head is buried in the OT and unable to see beyond your nose on this matter. Shalom.
Lolest!
#268 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:17:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
AlphDoti wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
Worshipper_Muhammad

You keep recycling scams since 2014! You were answered here already...
guru267 wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
You can imagine having to die for refusing to convert to the worship of Muhammad.

So who worships Muhammad?? Who even prays to Muhammad?? Why in God's name would anyone pray to a man who ate, slept, and took a dump just like themselves??

Muslims only worship the creator of the heavens and earth.. the creator of all that is seen and unseen!

Facts are stubborn! You guys worship that Satan messenger but you'd rather not admit it!
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
AlphDoti
#269 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:25:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
MugundaMan wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:

Jesus pbuh never ate swine as taught in Leviticus 11:7, (Vyakula Najisi) - BWANA akawaambia Mose na Aroni, "Waambie Waisraeli: lakini hao kamwe msiwale. Naye nguruwe ingawa anazo kwato zilizogawanyika sehemu mbili, lakini hacheui, ni najisi kwenu. Kamwe msile nyama yao wala kugusa mizoga yao, wao ni najisi kwenu.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 that: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets..."

Alpha you are now going around in circles, have you read any of the Pauline letters explaining the matter or foods, rituals and the like? I think not. This is why your head is buried in the OT and unable to see beyond your nose on this matter. Shalom.

You as Christian better start believing in the Torah otherwise you should be straight and detest the OT and even rebuke it!
AlphDoti
#270 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:32:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Lolest! wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
Worshipper_Muhammad

You keep recycling scams since 2014! You were answered here already...
guru267 wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
You can imagine having to die for refusing to convert to the worship of Muhammad.

So who worships Muhammad?? Who even prays to Muhammad?? Why in God's name would anyone pray to a man who ate, slept, and took a dump just like themselves??

Muslims only worship the creator of the heavens and earth.. the creator of all that is seen and unseen!

Facts are stubborn! You guys worship that Satan messenger but you'd rather not admit it!

We have told you again and again Muhammad pbuh was flesh and bones like you and me. He is not worthy of worship! As you remain stubborn, others are learning and they are not stupid.
MugundaMan
#271 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:44:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,211
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
AlphDoti wrote:
MugundaMan wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:

Jesus pbuh never ate swine as taught in Leviticus 11:7, (Vyakula Najisi) - BWANA akawaambia Mose na Aroni, "Waambie Waisraeli: lakini hao kamwe msiwale. Naye nguruwe ingawa anazo kwato zilizogawanyika sehemu mbili, lakini hacheui, ni najisi kwenu. Kamwe msile nyama yao wala kugusa mizoga yao, wao ni najisi kwenu.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 that: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets..."

Alpha you are now going around in circles, have you read any of the Pauline letters explaining the matter or foods, rituals and the like? I think not. This is why your head is buried in the OT and unable to see beyond your nose on this matter. Shalom.

You as Christian better start believing in the Torah otherwise you should be straight and detest the OT and even rebuke it!


I do believe in the Old Testament, because all its promises were fulfilled in Christ smile That is the part that has escaped you completely

OT was all about promises of the Messiah to come (by the way you are shockingly silent about the issue of the Messiah, described in staggering detail in multiple books in the OT eg Isaiah, including what tribe he would be from, what city he would be born in, what he would do, how he would die etc etc) how come? smile. Everything in the OT points to Christ

NT is all about the FULFILLMENT of the OT promises. IN Christ all the requirements of the Mosaic Law were perfectly fulfilled.

At least with the Judaists their contention is said messiah is yet to come and was not Christ - that is their right.

As I told you many posts ago, unless you get this by reading the Bible (which you have been quoting out of context furiously) from cover to cover, you have missed the boat completely and any further debate with you is pointless. Let the non-theists come back, they are more enjoyable to tango with.


AlphDoti
#272 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:47:53 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
MugundaMan wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
MugundaMan wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:

Jesus pbuh never ate swine as taught in Leviticus 11:7, (Vyakula Najisi) - BWANA akawaambia Mose na Aroni, "Waambie Waisraeli: lakini hao kamwe msiwale. Naye nguruwe ingawa anazo kwato zilizogawanyika sehemu mbili, lakini hacheui, ni najisi kwenu. Kamwe msile nyama yao wala kugusa mizoga yao, wao ni najisi kwenu.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 that: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets..."

Alpha you are now going around in circles, have you read any of the Pauline letters explaining the matter or foods, rituals and the like? I think not. This is why your head is buried in the OT and unable to see beyond your nose on this matter. Shalom.

You as Christian better start believing in the Torah otherwise you should be straight and detest the OT and even rebuke it!

I do believe in the Old Testament, because all its promises were fulfilled in Christ smile That is the part that has escaped you completely

OT was all about promises of the Messiah to come (by the way you are shockingly silent about the issue of the Messiah, described in staggering detail in multiple books in the OT eg Isaiah, including what tribe he would be from, what city he would be born in, what he would do, how he would die etc etc) how come? smile. Everything in the OT points to Christ

NT is all about the FULFILLMENT of the OT promises. IN Christ all the requirements of the Mosaic Law were perfectly fulfilled.

At least with the Judaists their contention is said messiah is yet to come and was not Christ - that is their right.

As I told you many posts ago, unless you get this by reading the Bible (which you have been quoting out of context furiously) from cover to cover, you have missed the boat completely and any further debate with you is pointless. Let the non-theists come back, they are more enjoyable to tango with.

Do you as a Christian believe in Jesus or not??

Matthew 5:17 Do not imagine I have come to change the Law of Moses or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish it...

And Jesus Christ stated that the Law of Moses remains unchanged until the end of this world! If you as Christian do not follow the OT, Yahweh's Law, then you are disobeying his law!
AlphDoti
#273 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:06:31 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
MugundaMan wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
MugundaMan wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:

Jesus pbuh never ate swine as taught in Leviticus 11:7, (Vyakula Najisi) - BWANA akawaambia Mose na Aroni, "Waambie Waisraeli: lakini hao kamwe msiwale. Naye nguruwe ingawa anazo kwato zilizogawanyika sehemu mbili, lakini hacheui, ni najisi kwenu. Kamwe msile nyama yao wala kugusa mizoga yao, wao ni najisi kwenu.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 that: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets..."

Alpha you are now going around in circles, have you read any of the Pauline letters explaining the matter or foods, rituals and the like? I think not. This is why your head is buried in the OT and unable to see beyond your nose on this matter. Shalom.

You as Christian better start believing in the Torah otherwise you should be straight and detest the OT and even rebuke it!

...As I told you many posts ago, unless you get this by reading the Bible (which you have been quoting out of context furiously) from cover to cover, you have missed the boat completely and any further debate with you is pointless. Let the non-theists come back, they are more enjoyable to tango with.

I told you we've been down this road before. We have been here since 2008. You just came to Wazua this year and you try to give us Christians conclusions. Conclusions must come from theories. And theories are always venerable for disproof. We have to test your theories against your witness the Bible to have a solid concrete ground.

You tried to peddle Trinity which is very weak and bogus! No GOD's religion taught trinity, not even Torah, and Injeel. The word "Trinity" does not even exist in the Bible! Trinity is a false interpretation resulting from the unfortunate exaggeration of "Godly" names given to Jesus and others in the Old Jewish Culture.

Jesus being called "son of God" does not make him Almighty God. David was called BEGOTTEN Son of GOD in Psalm 2:7 but that does not make him Almighty God. Even Satan was called "God" in 2 Corinthians 4:4 but he can never be Almighty God.

So bro get your facts correctly!

Now back to the atheists!
AlphDoti
#274 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:10:49 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
@MugundaMan

As for the SWINE, the PIG, your own Bible says its flesh is forbidden. You can deny but it is written and the ink is dried:

(a) "Of their flesh (of the swine) shall ye NOT EAT, and their carcass ye shall NOT TOUCH; they are unclean to you." LEVITICUS 11:8

Jesus (pbuh) destroyed 2000 pigs to heal one man -
(b) "And forthwith Jesus gave them leave (permission). And the unclean spirits (the devils) went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand); and were choked in the sea." MARK 5:13

Either expunge those verses from your Bible or swallow your ride and shut up! Usituletee machezo hapa Wazua, sisi hapana watoto! Rhetorics peleka kanisani to those who will just respond "amen!" hapa ni facts!
MugundaMan
#275 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:26:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,211
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
AlphDoti wrote:

Do you as a Christian believe in Jesus or not??

Matthew 5:17 Do not imagine I have come to change the Law of Moses or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish it...

And Jesus Christ stated that the Law of Moses remains unchanged until the end of this world! If you as Christian do not follow the OT, Yahweh's Law, then you are disobeying his law!


Please post the complete verse without truncating it and post the line you have chopped off in bold letters.

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Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

Apricot
#276 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 8:32:06 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2011
Posts: 181
Location: Nairobi
[quote=MugundaMan]
ha ha ha ha ha! You are the one being played by this fellow, because you are taking what he is saying as fact without actually reading the Bible for yourself to confirm whether what he is saying is true or not. And these are some tips that will help you weed through the deception:

1. Remember that there are numerous versions of the Bible; NIV, KJV, NASB, The so called Message and so many more. KJV is the closest it gets to the original scrolls. The message is a paraphrase of the Bible (I do not consider it at all to be an accurate representation of God's Word.) So when the prof compares one verse with another by comparing the KJV version of the former with the Message version of the latter, of course he knows you who swallow what he says as gospel will be easily convinced.

Ok. Which one is the accurate representation of God’s words and explain to us how you know.

2. Think of the Gospels as a narrative in 4D. As I explained in an earlier post. Two people can be at the same event, and notice various aspects that slightly differ in the same storyline, but that does not invalidate the overall unity of the story. For example, you and I may be looking at a beautiful girl. You may describe her as having nice hair and cheekbones and a wry smile. I may say she has very nice assets and a pretty dress. Does this mean our accounts contradict? Of course not.

Ok. Let me ask you a few pointed question:

1. Of the four canonical gospels, which one was the first one to be written, and when?
2. How long after Jesus’s death and resurrection was the first gospel written?
3. Were the canonical gospels written by the authors purported to have written them? Were they originally in Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek?
4. Do you know the timelines of when the other three canonical gospels were written? If they were not written at the same time, would you appreciate that it is possible for one to copy another?
5. Can you list three storylines where you noted differences between the canonical gospels?
6. For #3 above, can you explain (without giving a broad non-specific answer), why you think there are differences.
7. For Matthew specifically, do you think that souls of the dead woke up from the graves to witness the death of Jesus? Is there a reason no other gospel mentions this, considering all other things that happened, like a 3 hour eclipse and the ripping of the temple curtain? Are these not events anyone living at that time would notice and historians would have down?
8. Is Lazarus in all the four gospels? If not in which ones is his story told. Where he has been mentioned, is it the same Lazarus in all storylines?
9. For extra credit – How many gospels do you think there were outside the canonical gospel? Can you name one?


That all four Gospels written by four different authors of different backgrounds agree in stunning detail has confounded even some diehard atheists. The only safe refuge they have in explaining why this is so is that either there was a conspiracy after the fact or they all were a "forgery" yet all extra-Biblical historical evidence points otherwise.

Do you rule out that forged or plagiarized books can also be similar in stunning detail too? If you don’t agree, what is your method of coming to the conclusion. Why do you think your sources are more credible than any others?

Again I say your method is clever, when you don’t have to address specific detail. To determine if this debate is of any value to me, I will see how you deal with my questions above. Like whether you will start with some laughing memes, and then dismiss my questions with some broad answers. Or whether you will start with a throat clearing, then make an effort to answer my questions in a thoughtful manner without receding to a theistic explanation or answering in a broad non-specific way.
First time in history we can save the human race by laying in front of the TV and doing nothing. Let's not screw it up
MugundaMan
#277 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 8:57:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,211
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
Apricot wrote:


1. Remember that there are numerous versions of the Bible; NIV, KJV, NASB, The so called Message and so many more. KJV is the closest it gets to the original scrolls. The message is a paraphrase of the Bible (I do not consider it at all to be an accurate representation of God's Word.) So when the prof compares one verse with another by comparing the KJV version of the former with the Message version of the latter, of course he knows you who swallow what he says as gospel will be easily convinced.

Ok. Which one is the accurate representation of God’s words and explain to us how you know.

I just told it to you. Read my paragraph above very carefully for the answer

Quote:


Ok. Let me ask you a few pointed question:

1. Of the four canonical gospels, which one was the first one to be written, and when?
2. How long after Jesus’s death and resurrection was the first gospel written?
3. Were the canonical gospels written by the authors purported to have written them? Were they originally in Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek?
4. Do you know the timelines of when the other three canonical gospels were written? If they were not written at the same time, would you appreciate that it is possible for one to copy another?
5. Can you list three storylines where you noted differences between the canonical gospels?
6. For #3 above, can you explain (without giving a broad non-specific answer), why you think there are differences.
7. For Matthew specifically, do you think that souls of the dead woke up from the graves to witness the death of Jesus? Is there a reason no other gospel mentions this, considering all other things that happened, like a 3 hour eclipse and the ripping of the temple curtain? Are these not events anyone living at that time would notice and historians would have down?
8. Is Lazarus in all the four gospels? If not in which ones is his story told. Where he has been mentioned, is it the same Lazarus in all storylines?
9. For extra credit – How many gospels do you think there were outside the canonical gospel? Can you name one?


That all four Gospels written by four different authors of different backgrounds agree in stunning detail has confounded even some diehard atheists. The only safe refuge they have in explaining why this is so is that either there was a conspiracy after the fact or they all were a "forgery" yet all extra-Biblical historical evidence points otherwise.

Do you rule out that forged or plagiarized books can also be similar in stunning detail too? If you don’t agree, what is your method of coming to the conclusion. Why do you think your sources are more credible than any others?

Again I say your method is clever, when you don’t have to address specific detail. To determine if this debate is of any value to me, I will see how you deal with my questions above. Like whether you will start with some laughing memes, and then dismiss my questions with some broad answers. Or whether you will start with a throat clearing, then make an effort to answer my questions in a thoughtful manner without receding to a theistic explanation or answering in a broad non-specific way.


Hakuna kitu umesema hapa Laughing out loudly All these questions have been addressed in great detail by Biblical Historians. Like your friend in the video prating aimlessly about the "differences in geneaologies" in Matthew and Luke. That is simply because one author followed Mary's bloodline while the other followed Joseph's! But of course you do not know this so whatever some professor says in a podium makes sense to you. If you need resources to read ask and I will provide. Now let us deal with the SUBSTANCE that is in the gospels rather than matters long ago settled. Can you explain the PREDICTIVE HISTORICAL ACCURACY of Scripture from Genesis all the way to Matthew, with specific reference to Isaiah and Daniel? Asante in advance smile
Apricot
#278 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:55:23 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2011
Posts: 181
Location: Nairobi
MugundaMan wrote:
[quote=Apricot]

Quote:
The historicity of Jesus is in dispute. His celestial existence is not. Paul’s Jesus is not in doubt and neither is he falsifiable. He is revealed to him. Josephus mention of Jesus has nothing to do with his claimed divinity and it is minute. It is also believed to be a later accretion, like many others whose main goal is to show a historicity of Jesus.

ha ha ha ha ha ha! Excuse me for laughing here. You are in the extreme minority of scholars who actually disputes the historicity of Jesus! Even majority of your non-theist friends would not cast their lot with you on this. As I said earlier, a better argument would be to evaluate whether he was God or man. That he walked the earth is virtually irrefutable.


I don't refute that there could have been an eccentric mad preacher walking the earth then. There were many Jewish sects who were clamoring for a messiah who would free them the Romans. Religious disputes among them were common, "Resurrections" were a banality and so was the name Jesus (Yeshua)


Quote:
In Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews appears the notorious passage regarding Christ called the "Testimonium Flavianum" ("TF"):

"Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." (Whitson, 379)


I will leave it to the readers to determine if this paragraph (only) is the best secular evidence for historicity of someone who legend supposedly shook the earth.
First time in history we can save the human race by laying in front of the TV and doing nothing. Let's not screw it up
Apricot
#279 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:58:22 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2011
Posts: 181
Location: Nairobi
MugundaMan wrote:
[quote=Apricot]
Can you explain the PREDICTIVE HISTORICAL ACCURACY of Scripture from Genesis all the way to Matthew, with specific reference to Isaiah and Daniel? Asante in advance smile


Not so fast. I would like to hear your answers. You have a way of playing with the mind but it is not working on me.

Remember the central doctrine of Christianity is death and resurrection. As Paul said, "if Christ be not risen", then all will have been in vain. Why don't you answer my straightforward questions that hover around this central theme, then when you do so, I can consider how to write the thesis you have requested.
First time in history we can save the human race by laying in front of the TV and doing nothing. Let's not screw it up
MugundaMan
#280 Posted : Friday, September 28, 2018 1:09:33 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,211
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
Apricot wrote:
MugundaMan wrote:
[quote=Apricot]

Quote:
The historicity of Jesus is in dispute. His celestial existence is not. Paul’s Jesus is not in doubt and neither is he falsifiable. He is revealed to him. Josephus mention of Jesus has nothing to do with his claimed divinity and it is minute. It is also believed to be a later accretion, like many others whose main goal is to show a historicity of Jesus.

ha ha ha ha ha ha! Excuse me for laughing here. You are in the extreme minority of scholars who actually disputes the historicity of Jesus! Even majority of your non-theist friends would not cast their lot with you on this. As I said earlier, a better argument would be to evaluate whether he was God or man. That he walked the earth is virtually irrefutable.


I don't refute that there could have been an eccentric mad preacher walking the earth then. There were many Jewish sects who were clamoring for a messiah who would free them the Romans. Religious disputes among them were common, "Resurrections" were a banality and so was the name Jesus (Yeshua)


Quote:
In Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews appears the notorious passage regarding Christ called the "Testimonium Flavianum" ("TF"):

"Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." (Whitson, 379)


I will leave it to the readers to determine if this paragraph (only) is the best secular evidence for historicity of someone who legend supposedly shook the earth.


You see, your arguments are pedestrian at best and they have been fully addressed NUMEROUS times by Biblical Historians. If Josephus (whom you have CONVENIENTLY TRUNCATED TO JUST ONE PARAGRAPH) has not satisfied you, neither will Pliny the Younger, neither will Tacitus, neither will the Babylonian Talmud and all other sources which you seem to want me to reproduce here verbatim as if I was a schoolboy doing Biblical History 101 who has never read them before. READ THEM FOR YOURSELF and be dissatisfied in them Laughing out loudly because you clearly will never be convinced.
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