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Sanlam Kenya FY18
Pesa Nane
#1 Posted : Monday, August 27, 2018 8:19:18 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/25/2012
Posts: 4,105
Location: 08c
Sad

Pesa Nane plans to be shilingi when he grows up.
Fyatu
#2 Posted : Monday, August 27, 2018 8:28:32 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,820
Location: Nakuru
The first firm to use the interest rate cap as an excuse for poor performance and hence zero dividend/no capital gain for the long suffering wanjiku...ladies and gentlemen this line will be milked dry FY 2018. Watu wapambane na hali zao.
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
Wakanyugi
#3 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 10:37:03 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
Fyatu wrote:
The first firm to use the interest rate cap as an excuse for poor performance and hence zero dividend/no capital gain for the long suffering wanjiku...ladies and gentlemen this line will be milked dry FY 2018. Watu wapambane na hali zao.


There is some grain of truth in the excuse. The low tier banks are the ones likely to suffer most from interest capping and the tiers ones to benefit the most.

It is a vicious catch 22:

(1) Small banks lose the capacity to market (mostly consumer) loans to risky sectors - profitability declines and a few of them shut down. Tier ones pick up the pieces

(2) A stampede results from the above as depositors move their money to so called 'safe' banks. Tier ones benefit

(3) In a desperate effort to survive, some tier 3 and 4 consolidate, sell off to strategic investors or become conduits for the entry of Multinational banks. Tier ones (KCB) pick up some juicy properties on the cheap

Either way the Mwangi's, Muriukis and Oigara's are sitting pretty. Oigara was once quoted as saying 'Cap or no Cap, the [big] banks will be OK..." He knew what he was saying

And the CBK Governor seem to have long given up his argument that small banks should be defended because they serve niche markets that the big ones don't. He has made barely a peep as the move to raise capital requirements is reintroduced. You recall the earlier effort was shelved at his insistence.


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
lochaz-index
#4 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 11:28:18 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/18/2014
Posts: 1,127
Wakanyugi wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
The first firm to use the interest rate cap as an excuse for poor performance and hence zero dividend/no capital gain for the long suffering wanjiku...ladies and gentlemen this line will be milked dry FY 2018. Watu wapambane na hali zao.


There is some grain of truth in the excuse. The low tier banks are the ones likely to suffer most from interest capping and the tiers ones to benefit the most.

It is a vicious catch 22:

(1) Small banks lose the capacity to market (mostly consumer) loans to risky sectors - profitability declines and a few of them shut down. Tier ones pick up the pieces

(2) A stampede results from the above as depositors move their money to so called 'safe' banks. Tier ones benefit

(3) In a desperate effort to survive, some tier 3 and 4 consolidate, sell off to strategic investors or become conduits for the entry of Multinational banks. Tier ones (KCB) pick up some juicy properties on the cheap

Either way the Mwangi's, Muriukis and Oigara's are sitting pretty. Oigara was once quoted as saying 'Cap or no Cap, the [big] banks will be OK..." He knew what he was saying

And the CBK Governor seem to have long given up his argument that small banks should be defended because they serve niche markets that the big ones don't. He has made barely a peep as the move to raise capital requirements is reintroduced. You recall the earlier effort was shelved at his insistence.



Agreed. Parliament is unwittingly cheerleading the banking sector into an oligopoly by demonising and attempting to cap banks profits instead of dealing with interest rates and guess who will lose out eventually...wanjiku and the economy. Secondly, the idea of capping lending to govt will lead to capital outflows that the KE economy can ill afford at this time.
The main purpose of the stock market is to make fools of as many people as possible.
Wakanyugi
#5 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 12:12:14 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
The first firm to use the interest rate cap as an excuse for poor performance and hence zero dividend/no capital gain for the long suffering wanjiku...ladies and gentlemen this line will be milked dry FY 2018. Watu wapambane na hali zao.


There is some grain of truth in the excuse. The low tier banks are the ones likely to suffer most from interest capping and the tiers ones to benefit the most.

It is a vicious catch 22:

(1) Small banks lose the capacity to market (mostly consumer) loans to risky sectors - profitability declines and a few of them shut down. Tier ones pick up the pieces

(2) A stampede results from the above as depositors move their money to so called 'safe' banks. Tier ones benefit

(3) In a desperate effort to survive, some tier 3 and 4 consolidate, sell off to strategic investors or become conduits for the entry of Multinational banks. Tier ones (KCB) pick up some juicy properties on the cheap

Either way the Mwangi's, Muriukis and Oigara's are sitting pretty. Oigara was once quoted as saying 'Cap or no Cap, the [big] banks will be OK..." He knew what he was saying

And the CBK Governor seem to have long given up his argument that small banks should be defended because they serve niche markets that the big ones don't. He has made barely a peep as the move to raise capital requirements is reintroduced. You recall the earlier effort was shelved at his insistence.



Agreed. Parliament is unwittingly cheerleading the banking sector into an oligopoly by demonising and attempting to cap banks profits instead of dealing with interest rates and guess who will lose out eventually...wanjiku and the economy. Secondly, the idea of capping lending to govt will lead to capital outflows that the KE economy can ill afford at this time.


Nevertheless this is one time when allowing market forces to play out might be beneficial to Wanjiku, despite the long term risk of creating behemoths 'too big to fail.'

The massive investments in process reform and technology that the big banks have made has enabled them to shrug off the impact of Caps and continue to make huge profits. Wanjiku and the wider economy are the ultimate beneficiaries here - one reason I support the ongoing consolidation. The likes of Sanlam and even Family Bank, with their small and shaky capital bases, would be hard pressed to make such investments and should be taken over.

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Angelica _ann
#6 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 12:56:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,908
Why are we discussing Sanlam Kenya as a bank?
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
Horton
#7 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 1:00:44 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 1,558
Location: Nairobi
Angelica _ann wrote:
Why are we discussing Sanlam Kenya as a bank?


Yeah I don’t get the “rate cap angle” to the profit warning here
Thiong'o
#8 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 2:05:04 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/14/2011
Posts: 661
Horton wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
Why are we discussing Sanlam Kenya as a bank?


Yeah I don’t get the “rate cap angle” to the profit warning here


Not a bank.
The firm is using the interest rate cap to explain its poor performance in financial services and investment return.
Impact on financial returns for small firms (banks or not) as @Wakanyungi explains above remain same.
obiero
#9 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 2:08:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,506
Location: nairobi
Thiong'o wrote:
Horton wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
Why are we discussing Sanlam Kenya as a bank?


Yeah I don’t get the “rate cap angle” to the profit warning here


Not a bank.
The firm is using the interest rate cap to explain its poor performance in financial services and investment return.
Impact on financial returns for small firms (banks or not) as @Wakanyungi explains above remain same.

Everything is connected. Even your current balance in the wallet right now is somehow tied to the cap

HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
lochaz-index
#10 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 2:36:30 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/18/2014
Posts: 1,127
Wakanyugi wrote:
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
The first firm to use the interest rate cap as an excuse for poor performance and hence zero dividend/no capital gain for the long suffering wanjiku...ladies and gentlemen this line will be milked dry FY 2018. Watu wapambane na hali zao.


There is some grain of truth in the excuse. The low tier banks are the ones likely to suffer most from interest capping and the tiers ones to benefit the most.

It is a vicious catch 22:

(1) Small banks lose the capacity to market (mostly consumer) loans to risky sectors - profitability declines and a few of them shut down. Tier ones pick up the pieces

(2) A stampede results from the above as depositors move their money to so called 'safe' banks. Tier ones benefit

(3) In a desperate effort to survive, some tier 3 and 4 consolidate, sell off to strategic investors or become conduits for the entry of Multinational banks. Tier ones (KCB) pick up some juicy properties on the cheap

Either way the Mwangi's, Muriukis and Oigara's are sitting pretty. Oigara was once quoted as saying 'Cap or no Cap, the [big] banks will be OK..." He knew what he was saying

And the CBK Governor seem to have long given up his argument that small banks should be defended because they serve niche markets that the big ones don't. He has made barely a peep as the move to raise capital requirements is reintroduced. You recall the earlier effort was shelved at his insistence.



Agreed. Parliament is unwittingly cheerleading the banking sector into an oligopoly by demonising and attempting to cap banks profits instead of dealing with interest rates and guess who will lose out eventually...wanjiku and the economy. Secondly, the idea of capping lending to govt will lead to capital outflows that the KE economy can ill afford at this time.


Nevertheless this is one time when allowing market forces to play out might be beneficial to Wanjiku, despite the long term risk of creating behemoths 'too big to fail.'

The massive investments in process reform and technology that the big banks have made has enabled them to shrug off the impact of Caps and continue to make huge profits. Wanjiku and the wider economy are the ultimate beneficiaries here - one reason I support the ongoing consolidation. The likes of Sanlam and even Family Bank, with their small and shaky capital bases, would be hard pressed to make such investments and should be taken over.


You are contradicting yourself. Caps gagged the market forces thereby choking small banks and will lead to consolidation which in turn breeds an oligopoly capable of strong arming even the govt.

The proposed ammendments(again intended to gag market forces) will definitely lead to capital outflows at which point parliamentarians will probably come up with another piece of legislation to stem the hemorrhage. Where are the market forces you allude to if you are busy trying to legislate economics?

Wanjiku hasn't/won't be/been afforded credit so how exactly does she benefit from such an arrangement while she is scrapping capital from fintechs, shylocks and the likes at a higher rate than the one banks used to give before the caps?
The main purpose of the stock market is to make fools of as many people as possible.
Wakanyugi
#11 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 3:54:16 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
The first firm to use the interest rate cap as an excuse for poor performance and hence zero dividend/no capital gain for the long suffering wanjiku...ladies and gentlemen this line will be milked dry FY 2018. Watu wapambane na hali zao.


There is some grain of truth in the excuse. The low tier banks are the ones likely to suffer most from interest capping and the tiers ones to benefit the most.

It is a vicious catch 22:

(1) Small banks lose the capacity to market (mostly consumer) loans to risky sectors - profitability declines and a few of them shut down. Tier ones pick up the pieces

(2) A stampede results from the above as depositors move their money to so called 'safe' banks. Tier ones benefit

(3) In a desperate effort to survive, some tier 3 and 4 consolidate, sell off to strategic investors or become conduits for the entry of Multinational banks. Tier ones (KCB) pick up some juicy properties on the cheap

Either way the Mwangi's, Muriukis and Oigara's are sitting pretty. Oigara was once quoted as saying 'Cap or no Cap, the [big] banks will be OK..." He knew what he was saying

And the CBK Governor seem to have long given up his argument that small banks should be defended because they serve niche markets that the big ones don't. He has made barely a peep as the move to raise capital requirements is reintroduced. You recall the earlier effort was shelved at his insistence.



Agreed. Parliament is unwittingly cheerleading the banking sector into an oligopoly by demonising and attempting to cap banks profits instead of dealing with interest rates and guess who will lose out eventually...wanjiku and the economy. Secondly, the idea of capping lending to govt will lead to capital outflows that the KE economy can ill afford at this time.


Nevertheless this is one time when allowing market forces to play out might be beneficial to Wanjiku, despite the long term risk of creating behemoths 'too big to fail.'

The massive investments in process reform and technology that the big banks have made has enabled them to shrug off the impact of Caps and continue to make huge profits. Wanjiku and the wider economy are the ultimate beneficiaries here - one reason I support the ongoing consolidation. The likes of Sanlam and even Family Bank, with their small and shaky capital bases, would be hard pressed to make such investments and should be taken over.


You are contradicting yourself. Caps gagged the market forces thereby choking small banks and will lead to consolidation which in turn breeds an oligopoly capable of strong arming even the govt.

The proposed ammendments(again intended to gag market forces) will definitely lead to capital outflows at which point parliamentarians will probably come up with another piece of legislation to stem the hemorrhage. Where are the market forces you allude to if you are busy trying to legislate economics?

Wanjiku hasn't/won't be/been afforded credit so how exactly does she benefit from such an arrangement while she is scrapping capital from fintechs, shylocks and the likes at a higher rate than the one banks used to give before the caps?


I am not seeing the contradiction, other than in baptizing Sanlam a bank, which Angelica and Obiero have already pounced on (my bad).

Lets assume Sanlam is a small bank, in the vein of Jamii Bora, Family Bank et al. Its margins are squeezed to the point it has to merge or sell out - resulting in a much bigger bank; one that has the cash to innovate and thus expand their reach, lower costs and even take more risks. In my opinion Wanjiku benefits (as do the banks).

JM recently said that since banks stopped lending to high risk Wanjiku, in an effort to arm twist the government, many people have taken refuge among Shylocks. Guess who the biggest Shylock in town is today? The microlending platforms like Mswhari, KCB, Equitel, Branch, Tala etc. In fact Wanjiku is spoiled for choice. In the short term this is still a benefit to her, one enabled by the ability of those banks to innovate and spend big on the tools and processes needed to thrive in a constrained operating environment.

The long term dangers you point out are real. But Bank oligopoly and state capture has been part of our reality for years and is not likely to end soon; anymore than the Energy cartel did after sector regulation was introduced. Even the systemic danger of 'too big to fail banks' is somehow mitigated by the fact that the KCB's, Equity's and Cooperative, in an effort to escape stiff competition at home, are aggressively spreading out of Kenya, something that the hostile environment of regulation will only accelerate.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
VituVingiSana
#12 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 4:47:09 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,099
Location: Nairobi
Most firms start small.
If the current and proposed laws were in place, Equity would have been forced to shut down or merge...
Even Safcom was a piddling little firm when MJ took over as CEO

Let the small banks find their feet. What’s outdated is the 90s era 100k as deposit insurance limit. That should be revised to at least 1mn given the drop in (spending) value of the KES from 1995 to 2018.
A 1mn/account Insurance would cover most Kenyans who aren’t necessarily looking for yield.

As for saying Kenyans should invest abroad it is an elitist view given the costs of investing abroad from exchange losses on conversion, EFT costs, costs of complying with KYC, double taxation, etc.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
obiero
#13 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 5:07:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,506
Location: nairobi
VituVingiSana wrote:
Most firms start small.
If the current and proposed laws were in place, Equity would have been forced to shut down or merge...
Even Safcom was a piddling little firm when MJ took over as CEO

Let the small banks find their feet. What’s outdated is the 90s era 100k as deposit insurance limit. That should be revised to at least 1mn given the drop in (spending) value of the KES from 1995 to 2018.
A 1mn/account Insurance would cover most Kenyans who aren’t necessarily looking for yield.

As for saying Kenyans should invest abroad it is an elitist view given the costs of investing abroad from exchange losses on conversion, EFT costs, costs of complying with KYC, double taxation, etc.

We cannot invest abroad.. Hapo tuko pamoja mzee

HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
Wakanyugi
#14 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 9:42:26 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
VituVingiSana wrote:
Most firms start small.
If the current and proposed laws were in place, Equity would have been forced to shut down or merge e...


Not so. Equitys journey started at one of the lowest points in the Banking Industry in Kenya; the first wave of bank collapse that saw the death of local finance institutions like Union Bank, Rural Urban, Jimba Credit and others.

Adversity has a way of revealing growth opportunities and the same will happen now. Sheltering small banks, some which serve dubious purposes like money laundering, will not ensure their survival. Exposure to the bracing winds of market competition may.

In any case, Kenya has 44 commercial banks while Nigeria has 28. What is so special about us?
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
obiero
#15 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 10:19:10 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,506
Location: nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
Most firms start small.
If the current and proposed laws were in place, Equity would have been forced to shut down or merge e...


Not so. Equitys journey started at one of the lowest points in the Banking Industry in Kenya; the first wave of bank collapse that saw the death of local finance institutions like Union Bank, Rural Urban, Jimba Credit and others.

Adversity has a way of revealing growth opportunities and the same will happen now. Sheltering small banks, some which serve dubious purposes like money laundering, will not ensure their survival. Exposure to the bracing winds of market competition may.

In any case, Kenya has 44 commercial banks while Nigeria has 28. What is so special about us?

Asante @Wakanyugi.. Spoken like a true elder

HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
VituVingiSana
#16 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:34:27 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,099
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
Most firms start small.
If the current and proposed laws were in place, Equity would have been forced to shut down or merge e...


Not so. Equitys journey started at one of the lowest points in the Banking Industry in Kenya; the first wave of bank collapse that saw the death of local finance institutions like Union Bank, Rural Urban, Jimba Credit and others.

Adversity has a way of revealing growth opportunities and the same will happen now. Sheltering small banks, some which serve dubious purposes like money laundering, will not ensure their survival. Exposure to the bracing winds of market competition may.

In any case, Kenya has 44 commercial banks while Nigeria has 28. What is so special about us?


Are you saying Equity did not start small?
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Wakanyugi
#17 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2018 7:29:55 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
VituVingiSana wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
Most firms start small.
If the current and proposed laws were in place, Equity would have been forced to shut down or merge e...


Not so. Equitys journey started at one of the lowest points in the Banking Industry in Kenya; the first wave of bank collapse that saw the death of local finance institutions like Union Bank, Rural Urban, Jimba Credit and others.

Adversity has a way of revealing growth opportunities and the same will happen now. Sheltering small banks, some which serve dubious purposes like money laundering, will not ensure their survival. Exposure to the bracing winds of market competition may.

In any case, Kenya has 44 commercial banks while Nigeria has 28. What is so special about us?


Are you saying Equity did not start small?


No

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
lochaz-index
#18 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2018 9:45:52 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/18/2014
Posts: 1,127
Wakanyugi wrote:
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
The first firm to use the interest rate cap as an excuse for poor performance and hence zero dividend/no capital gain for the long suffering wanjiku...ladies and gentlemen this line will be milked dry FY 2018. Watu wapambane na hali zao.


There is some grain of truth in the excuse. The low tier banks are the ones likely to suffer most from interest capping and the tiers ones to benefit the most.

It is a vicious catch 22:

(1) Small banks lose the capacity to market (mostly consumer) loans to risky sectors - profitability declines and a few of them shut down. Tier ones pick up the pieces

(2) A stampede results from the above as depositors move their money to so called 'safe' banks. Tier ones benefit

(3) In a desperate effort to survive, some tier 3 and 4 consolidate, sell off to strategic investors or become conduits for the entry of Multinational banks. Tier ones (KCB) pick up some juicy properties on the cheap

Either way the Mwangi's, Muriukis and Oigara's are sitting pretty. Oigara was once quoted as saying 'Cap or no Cap, the [big] banks will be OK..." He knew what he was saying

And the CBK Governor seem to have long given up his argument that small banks should be defended because they serve niche markets that the big ones don't. He has made barely a peep as the move to raise capital requirements is reintroduced. You recall the earlier effort was shelved at his insistence.



Agreed. Parliament is unwittingly cheerleading the banking sector into an oligopoly by demonising and attempting to cap banks profits instead of dealing with interest rates and guess who will lose out eventually...wanjiku and the economy. Secondly, the idea of capping lending to govt will lead to capital outflows that the KE economy can ill afford at this time.


Nevertheless this is one time when allowing market forces to play out might be beneficial to Wanjiku, despite the long term risk of creating behemoths 'too big to fail.'

The massive investments in process reform and technology that the big banks have made has enabled them to shrug off the impact of Caps and continue to make huge profits. Wanjiku and the wider economy are the ultimate beneficiaries here - one reason I support the ongoing consolidation. The likes of Sanlam and even Family Bank, with their small and shaky capital bases, would be hard pressed to make such investments and should be taken over.


You are contradicting yourself. Caps gagged the market forces thereby choking small banks and will lead to consolidation which in turn breeds an oligopoly capable of strong arming even the govt.

The proposed ammendments(again intended to gag market forces) will definitely lead to capital outflows at which point parliamentarians will probably come up with another piece of legislation to stem the hemorrhage. Where are the market forces you allude to if you are busy trying to legislate economics?

Wanjiku hasn't/won't be/been afforded credit so how exactly does she benefit from such an arrangement while she is scrapping capital from fintechs, shylocks and the likes at a higher rate than the one banks used to give before the caps?


I am not seeing the contradiction, other than in baptizing Sanlam a bank, which Angelica and Obiero have already pounced on (my bad).

Lets assume Sanlam is a small bank, in the vein of Jamii Bora, Family Bank et al. Its margins are squeezed to the point it has to merge or sell out - resulting in a much bigger bank; one that has the cash to innovate and thus expand their reach, lower costs and even take more risks. In my opinion Wanjiku benefits (as do the banks).

JM recently said that since banks stopped lending to high risk Wanjiku, in an effort to arm twist the government, many people have taken refuge among Shylocks. Guess who the biggest Shylock in town is today? The microlending platforms like Mswhari, KCB, Equitel, Branch, Tala etc. In fact Wanjiku is spoiled for choice. In the short term this is still a benefit to her, one enabled by the ability of those banks to innovate and spend big on the tools and processes needed to thrive in a constrained operating environment.

The long term dangers you point out are real. But Bank oligopoly and state capture has been part of our reality for years and is not likely to end soon; anymore than the Energy cartel did after sector regulation was introduced. Even the systemic danger of 'too big to fail banks' is somehow mitigated by the fact that the KCB's, Equity's and Cooperative, in an effort to escape stiff competition at home, are aggressively spreading out of Kenya, something that the hostile environment of regulation will only accelerate.

The contradiction is in claiming to be pro market forces while also cheering interventionist actions (pro legislation as to how banks should deploy their funds). The latter is a regulatory rabbit hole with no end since the market always wins.
The main purpose of the stock market is to make fools of as many people as possible.
Wakanyugi
#19 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:09:40 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
The first firm to use the interest rate cap as an excuse for poor performance and hence zero dividend/no capital gain for the long suffering wanjiku...ladies and gentlemen this line will be milked dry FY 2018. Watu wapambane na hali zao.


There is some grain of truth in the excuse. The low tier banks are the ones likely to suffer most from interest capping and the tiers ones to benefit the most.

It is a vicious catch 22:

(1) Small banks lose the capacity to market (mostly consumer) loans to risky sectors - profitability declines and a few of them shut down. Tier ones pick up the pieces

(2) A stampede results from the above as depositors move their money to so called 'safe' banks. Tier ones benefit

(3) In a desperate effort to survive, some tier 3 and 4 consolidate, sell off to strategic investors or become conduits for the entry of Multinational banks. Tier ones (KCB) pick up some juicy properties on the cheap

Either way the Mwangi's, Muriukis and Oigara's are sitting pretty. Oigara was once quoted as saying 'Cap or no Cap, the [big] banks will be OK..." He knew what he was saying

And the CBK Governor seem to have long given up his argument that small banks should be defended because they serve niche markets that the big ones don't. He has made barely a peep as the move to raise capital requirements is reintroduced. You recall the earlier effort was shelved at his insistence.



Agreed. Parliament is unwittingly cheerleading the banking sector into an oligopoly by demonising and attempting to cap banks profits instead of dealing with interest rates and guess who will lose out eventually...wanjiku and the economy. Secondly, the idea of capping lending to govt will lead to capital outflows that the KE economy can ill afford at this time.


Nevertheless this is one time when allowing market forces to play out might be beneficial to Wanjiku, despite the long term risk of creating behemoths 'too big to fail.'

The massive investments in process reform and technology that the big banks have made has enabled them to shrug off the impact of Caps and continue to make huge profits. Wanjiku and the wider economy are the ultimate beneficiaries here - one reason I support the ongoing consolidation. The likes of Sanlam and even Family Bank, with their small and shaky capital bases, would be hard pressed to make such investments and should be taken over.


You are contradicting yourself. Caps gagged the market forces thereby choking small banks and will lead to consolidation which in turn breeds an oligopoly capable of strong arming even the govt.

The proposed ammendments(again intended to gag market forces) will definitely lead to capital outflows at which point parliamentarians will probably come up with another piece of legislation to stem the hemorrhage. Where are the market forces you allude to if you are busy trying to legislate economics?

Wanjiku hasn't/won't be/been afforded credit so how exactly does she benefit from such an arrangement while she is scrapping capital from fintechs, shylocks and the likes at a higher rate than the one banks used to give before the caps?


I am not seeing the contradiction, other than in baptizing Sanlam a bank, which Angelica and Obiero have already pounced on (my bad).

Lets assume Sanlam is a small bank, in the vein of Jamii Bora, Family Bank et al. Its margins are squeezed to the point it has to merge or sell out - resulting in a much bigger bank; one that has the cash to innovate and thus expand their reach, lower costs and even take more risks. In my opinion Wanjiku benefits (as do the banks).

JM recently said that since banks stopped lending to high risk Wanjiku, in an effort to arm twist the government, many people have taken refuge among Shylocks. Guess who the biggest Shylock in town is today? The microlending platforms like Mswhari, KCB, Equitel, Branch, Tala etc. In fact Wanjiku is spoiled for choice. In the short term this is still a benefit to her, one enabled by the ability of those banks to innovate and spend big on the tools and processes needed to thrive in a constrained operating environment.

The long term dangers you point out are real. But Bank oligopoly and state capture has been part of our reality for years and is not likely to end soon; anymore than the Energy cartel did after sector regulation was introduced. Even the systemic danger of 'too big to fail banks' is somehow mitigated by the fact that the KCB's, Equity's and Cooperative, in an effort to escape stiff competition at home, are aggressively spreading out of Kenya, something that the hostile environment of regulation will only accelerate.

The contradiction is in claiming to be pro market forces while also cheering interventionist actions (pro legislation as to how banks should deploy their funds). The latter is a regulatory rabbit hole with no end since the market always wins.


You read me wrong my friend. I am neither a market hawk nor an interventionist. I consider myself a pragmatist, the only caveat being: What is best for Wanjiku?

Thus I support an interventionist approach to control Banks greed as this benefits Wanjiku. But at the same time I support market driven sector consolidation, which will result in better capitalized banks that do not have to levy usurious interest rates to stay afloat.

Ergo, Wanjiku benefits. Where is the contradiction?

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#20 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:11:32 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
lochaz-index wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
The first firm to use the interest rate cap as an excuse for poor performance and hence zero dividend/no capital gain for the long suffering wanjiku...ladies and gentlemen this line will be milked dry FY 2018. Watu wapambane na hali zao.


There is some grain of truth in the excuse. The low tier banks are the ones likely to suffer most from interest capping and the tiers ones to benefit the most.

It is a vicious catch 22:

(1) Small banks lose the capacity to market (mostly consumer) loans to risky sectors - profitability declines and a few of them shut down. Tier ones pick up the pieces

(2) A stampede results from the above as depositors move their money to so called 'safe' banks. Tier ones benefit

(3) In a desperate effort to survive, some tier 3 and 4 consolidate, sell off to strategic investors or become conduits for the entry of Multinational banks. Tier ones (KCB) pick up some juicy properties on the cheap

Either way the Mwangi's, Muriukis and Oigara's are sitting pretty. Oigara was once quoted as saying 'Cap or no Cap, the [big] banks will be OK..." He knew what he was saying

And the CBK Governor seem to have long given up his argument that small banks should be defended because they serve niche markets that the big ones don't. He has made barely a peep as the move to raise capital requirements is reintroduced. You recall the earlier effort was shelved at his insistence.



Agreed. Parliament is unwittingly cheerleading the banking sector into an oligopoly by demonising and attempting to cap banks profits instead of dealing with interest rates and guess who will lose out eventually...wanjiku and the economy. Secondly, the idea of capping lending to govt will lead to capital outflows that the KE economy can ill afford at this time.


Nevertheless this is one time when allowing market forces to play out might be beneficial to Wanjiku, despite the long term risk of creating behemoths 'too big to fail.'

The massive investments in process reform and technology that the big banks have made has enabled them to shrug off the impact of Caps and continue to make huge profits. Wanjiku and the wider economy are the ultimate beneficiaries here - one reason I support the ongoing consolidation. The likes of Sanlam and even Family Bank, with their small and shaky capital bases, would be hard pressed to make such investments and should be taken over.


You are contradicting yourself. Caps gagged the market forces thereby choking small banks and will lead to consolidation which in turn breeds an oligopoly capable of strong arming even the govt.

The proposed ammendments(again intended to gag market forces) will definitely lead to capital outflows at which point parliamentarians will probably come up with another piece of legislation to stem the hemorrhage. Where are the market forces you allude to if you are busy trying to legislate economics?

Wanjiku hasn't/won't be/been afforded credit so how exactly does she benefit from such an arrangement while she is scrapping capital from fintechs, shylocks and the likes at a higher rate than the one banks used to give before the caps?


I am not seeing the contradiction, other than in baptizing Sanlam a bank, which Angelica and Obiero have already pounced on (my bad).

Lets assume Sanlam is a small bank, in the vein of Jamii Bora, Family Bank et al. Its margins are squeezed to the point it has to merge or sell out - resulting in a much bigger bank; one that has the cash to innovate and thus expand their reach, lower costs and even take more risks. In my opinion Wanjiku benefits (as do the banks).

JM recently said that since banks stopped lending to high risk Wanjiku, in an effort to arm twist the government, many people have taken refuge among Shylocks. Guess who the biggest Shylock in town is today? The microlending platforms like Mswhari, KCB, Equitel, Branch, Tala etc. In fact Wanjiku is spoiled for choice. In the short term this is still a benefit to her, one enabled by the ability of those banks to innovate and spend big on the tools and processes needed to thrive in a constrained operating environment.

The long term dangers you point out are real. But Bank oligopoly and state capture has been part of our reality for years and is not likely to end soon; anymore than the Energy cartel did after sector regulation was introduced. Even the systemic danger of 'too big to fail banks' is somehow mitigated by the fact that the KCB's, Equity's and Cooperative, in an effort to escape stiff competition at home, are aggressively spreading out of Kenya, something that the hostile environment of regulation will only accelerate.

The contradiction is in claiming to be pro market forces while also cheering interventionist actions (pro legislation as to how banks should deploy their funds). The latter is a regulatory rabbit hole with no end since the market always wins.


You read me wrong my friend. I am neither a market hawk nor an interventionist. I consider myself a pragmatist, the only caveat being: What is best for Wanjiku?

Thus I support an interventionist approach to control Banks greed as this benefits Wanjiku. But at the same time I support market driven sector consolidation, which will result in better capitalized banks that do not have to levy usurious interest rates to stay afloat.

Ergo, Wanjiku benefits. Where is the contradiction?

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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