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Christianity Versus Education
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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Mukiri wrote:masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:Consistency has been an issue in my life, and it's only recently that I have started to learn to 'forgive' and accept my inconsistencies. Not that consistency is unachievable, or undesirable, but is the result of work.
This is the secret to serenity!! accepting that you are fallible and that you know more today than you did yesterday and that positions you took yesterday were informed by the information you had yesterday..... heck... this whole conversation can be rubbish tomorrow based on what we learn tomorrow!! We may discover we were 'silly'/'ignorant'/'shortsighted' to have been saying and holding the positions we have held... but the worst thing we can do is hold on a position due to society's pressure to remain consistent with our less informed dated selves... that would be to me 'self delusion' Kale come back to Church! Looking into the abyss is doing you no good, now that I see it looking back at you. Rudi Church  Sija wacha church hata jana I was there. I plan on going when I can...I just don't buy everything I hear (correction... I never really did... Was just hoping it would all make sense one day.... I guess I got tired of waiting for a coherent theory to materialize) All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Yesterday after revealing myself, I went ahead and started designing an experiment that would 'prove' that apart from 'me' or 'anyone' there's 'The mind' existing 'outside'. I've ended up doing three experiments; and it's really gotten me thinking. I have had to investigate again on God, and alas, Christ. I have had to consult a highly educated Christian, and I book I have neglected since I bought it came to my rescue- 'On being a Christian' by Hans Küng.
'Christianity' isn't simply a religion, or a belief system, it's a remembering of Christ, at least Küng says. And when I think about it, I realize that it's not just about remembering, but is actually about being Christ. So in a sense when we say 'Christianity versus Education' and making inferences what are we talking about? How does Christ, not then, but now, relate with 'education'?
When I look at it that way, I realize that something is very wrong. And that the task I'm facing is much more important than I have imagined.
Anyway, to cut a long story short- I have barely slept in the last three days, is that;
1. Much as religion may be a tool of control, so can Science, be a tool of control
2. I am unwilling to surrender my subjective experience to an objective reality to an extent of ignoring it, or suppressing it. This affects the kinds of proof I can offer, and how I can offer such proof.
3. Any proofs I can offer are specifically about an explication of my subjective experience and testing and using this explication to relate with other subjective experiences, the uncertainty I exist in, and to meet all reality with 'love' and acceptance
4. My subjective experience is hampered by lack of religious practice and devotion
5. Science is an important tool, and experience that organizes my subjective and even 'religious' experience
6. It's not my work to assure one of anything. In fact, I can't do it in principle. Neither is it my job to defend my faith, and explications. But my job is to avail my experience to other experiencers and to use these explications to protect and nourish my subjective experience and that of others
7. The threshold of probability that's enough for me to believe an explication ranges between 50% plus one, and 100%
8. Ultimately, my subjective experience goes beyond words and symbols and can never be explicated exhaustively
9. There exists a power and power source beyond my subjective experience that per force, denies any form of explication and can only be abstracted by my effort, and is sufficient explanation for ALL my experience
10. My openness and submission to this power accounts for my perfection, and consistency
11. Christ is 'the model' of the consistent and perfect being not out of dogma but by embracing my subjective experience
So how I relate with education is equal to how Christ relates with education. I have books everywhere around me, even under my bed, and in my pockets. And for a while I have been wondering how to preserve and protect them. I've thought of putting them on the 'cloud' deeming them precious. But now I can throw them away. I have discovered 'the truth that sets me free'.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/22/2015 Posts: 682
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@masukuma, I'm legitimately curious, if you don't buy what you see and hear from the religious texts, why do you still feel the obligation to the Church?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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Mike Ock wrote:@masukuma, I'm legitimately curious, if you don't buy what you see and hear from the religious texts, why do you still feel the obligation to the Church? Cultural, traditional, sentimental reasons. I would want my kids to grow up there. Religion is not useless.... It's not as useful as it used to be but it's not useless. Again don't look for consistency or coherence. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/22/2015 Posts: 682
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@masukuma, please read your signature again today. It applies heavily here.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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Mike Ock wrote:@masukuma, please read your signature again today. It applies heavily here. why are you looking for consistency where there is none? All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Mike Ock wrote:@masukuma, I'm legitimately curious, if you don't buy what you see and hear from the religious texts, why do you still feel the obligation to the Church? Religious texts aren't necessarily to be 'bought' or adhered to. They are invitations to readers to probe further their experience under a context of a human-divine relationship. In the same way, one can study ancient scientific texts not to simply follow or believe in the contents but spur new thought.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:Mike Ock wrote:@masukuma, please read your signature again today. It applies heavily here. why are you looking for consistency where there is none? If human experience of the universe excludes consistency, is it right then that reason and rationality should be held as infallible guides to human action? What would be the basis of human life, or life in general?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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We finally meet @hamburglar All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/17/2010 Posts: 572
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tycho wrote:Yesterday after revealing myself, I went ahead and started designing an experiment that would 'prove' that apart from 'me' or 'anyone' there's 'The mind' existing 'outside'. I've ended up doing three experiments; and it's really gotten me thinking. I have had to investigate again on God, and alas, Christ. I have had to consult a highly educated Christian, and I book I have neglected since I bought it came to my rescue- 'On being a Christian' by Hans Küng.
'Christianity' isn't simply a religion, or a belief system, it's a remembering of Christ, at least Küng says. And when I think about it, I realize that it's not just about remembering, but is actually about being Christ. So in a sense when we say 'Christianity versus Education' and making inferences what are we talking about? How does Christ, not then, but now, relate with 'education'?
When I look at it that way, I realize that something is very wrong. And that the task I'm facing is much more important than I have imagined.
Anyway, to cut a long story short- I have barely slept in the last three days, is that;
1. Much as religion may be a tool of control, so can Science, be a tool of control
2. I am unwilling to surrender my subjective experience to an objective reality to an extent of ignoring it, or suppressing it. This affects the kinds of proof I can offer, and how I can offer such proof.
3. Any proofs I can offer are specifically about an explication of my subjective experience and testing and using this explication to relate with other subjective experiences, the uncertainty I exist in, and to meet all reality with 'love' and acceptance
4. My subjective experience is hampered by lack of religious practice and devotion
5. Science is an important tool, and experience that organizes my subjective and even 'religious' experience
6. It's not my work to assure one of anything. In fact, I can't do it in principle. Neither is it my job to defend my faith, and explications. But my job is to avail my experience to other experiencers and to use these explications to protect and nourish my subjective experience and that of others
7. The threshold of probability that's enough for me to believe an explication ranges between 50% plus one, and 100%
8. Ultimately, my subjective experience goes beyond words and symbols and can never be explicated exhaustively
9. There exists a power and power source beyond my subjective experience that per force, denies any form of explication and can only be abstracted by my effort, and is sufficient explanation for ALL my experience
10. My openness and submission to this power accounts for my perfection, and consistency
11. Christ is 'the model' of the consistent and perfect being not out of dogma but by embracing my subjective experience
So how I relate with education is equal to how Christ relates with education. I have books everywhere around me, even under my bed, and in my pockets. And for a while I have been wondering how to preserve and protect them. I've thought of putting them on the 'cloud' deeming them precious. But now I can throw them away. I have discovered 'the truth that sets me free'.
 'One headache for famous medieval holy people was that someone might murder you to acquire your body parts for the relics trade'
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Scriptures are the foot prints of humanity in the course of progress and perfection. They are lights in an otherwise dark labyrinth.
In this view, all Scripture is perfect, and true. When contradiction appears then it's a clue to some underlying mystery. For example, in the Abrahamic religions, there's often a contention that the age of the earth is much older than say, those who take Genesis accounts and other periods into account. But my understanding of Genesis is that the Earth began when humanity gained consciousness of itself. The garden of Eden is most likely the womb. Adam is archetypal Man.
Christ is second Adam. Another archetype. That's why he's born of a virgin. And his story is a matter of the mystical where Man must part ways with the banal, and helplessness and transcend to greater heights of spirituality, in order to find peace even on earth. That's how Christ is King. That's how Christ is a revolutionary. That's how he heals. And indeed that's how humanity can move forward to 'heaven'.
It's possible that we're not educated enough to study Scripture that the more we perceive ourselves to be educated, the less accessible the Scriptures become and the more we get alienated from our faiths. And Christianity has particularly accepted miseducation and neglect of the Scripture. Christ is no longer the revolutionary, he's pro-establishment, pro 'normal'.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/11/2012 Posts: 5,222
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masukuma wrote:Mukiri wrote:masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:Consistency has been an issue in my life, and it's only recently that I have started to learn to 'forgive' and accept my inconsistencies. Not that consistency is unachievable, or undesirable, but is the result of work.
This is the secret to serenity!! accepting that you are fallible and that you know more today than you did yesterday and that positions you took yesterday were informed by the information you had yesterday..... heck... this whole conversation can be rubbish tomorrow based on what we learn tomorrow!! We may discover we were 'silly'/'ignorant'/'shortsighted' to have been saying and holding the positions we have held... but the worst thing we can do is hold on a position due to society's pressure to remain consistent with our less informed dated selves... that would be to me 'self delusion' Kale come back to Church! Looking into the abyss is doing you no good, now that I see it looking back at you. Rudi Church Sija wacha church hata jana I was there. I plan on going when I can...I just don't buy everything I hear (correction... I never really did... Was just hoping it would all make sense one day.... I guess I got tired of waiting for a coherent theory to materialize) You remind me of the parable of the seed that fell on rocky ground, among thorns and fertile soil. These thorns will finish you. What does the Bible say about seeking the face of God? You go to Church to 'hear'? Yenyewe Im sorry for you Remember the Sunday school songs? A 'Balanced diet' if you ask me Trust and obey, for theres no other way, to be.... Read your Bible, Pray everyday, pray everyday, pray everyday... Maybe you should start allover from the basics
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 5/5/2011 Posts: 1,059
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Neither cry nor laugh. Instead try to think critically about the presentation and the arguments. You'll be surprised by how so much poison is being sold by both sides of the argument. Take nothing for granted!
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