I see nobody is answering your question. Here we go. Direct translation means "mbuzi ya chama". Chama here meaning the elders council. For you to be admitted into the council, your old man takes a goat to the wazees. Quite an elaborate process as explained by @kaigangio. By the time you become one of them, a number of goats will have gone.

Personal opinion. The church is right. And it will win this hands down. Of all the functions, @kaigangio explained up there, the council does nothing to advance the community's interests. It's just like a members club which gives you bragging rights. Apart from the meetings, eating goat meat and drinking muratina from cow horns (ruhia), there is nothing much a young man would gain by joining.

The mostly fiercely battle between PCEA and traditionalists was the "Muthirigu" about female circumcision way back in the 1950s. This one about Mburi cia Kiama is just a side show.

What they are forgetting is that people have a choice today, unlike 70 years ago when they bestrode all spheres of life.

I am not a Christian but I have been observing some interesting things every time a friend or relative drags me to church. One of them is the shortage of young people and male members in mainstream Churches. I even noticed that the same PCEA Church has been relaxing some of its intrusive "Mutaratara" rules of behavior, after deriding the Catholic Church for doing the same in the 70's.

Picking a fight with the Kiama, at a time when traditional institutions have been on a renaissance everywhere, is scoring a stupid own goal.

You are right at Wakanyugi...The PCEA church is now feeling threatened because most of its male component of the congregation has shown her their backs for things that the church is not doing right.

There are other mainstream churches who are really encouraging their male members to join the Ciama cia Athuri so that they can benefit from some things that the church cannot offer. Does it mean that these churches are going against the church doctrines? the answer is a resounding NO!!

That part which you've not mentioned. The part for offering sacrifices to ancestors.

That's worship.

Does respect and obedience to presbyters entail worship?

Because as much as you philosophers may want to potray life, it is an either or.

I have seen Kiamas.

Usually old men in their twilight zone trying to convince a young sharp guy in their 40's to join. Telling them that they will drink Muratina and such crap.

The truth is and for the sake of the fake laws, you've been had.

If you paid mahari your kiama and now want to force your kids to do the same, wacha ushenzi wako nyuma, tafadhali. If I refuse, UTAFANYA NINI? UTANIROGA? AMA UNIITE JARUOS?

I have seen the Kiama supporters here. I call it the Stockholm syndrome. Sine you paid, you want to force your kids to pay. Using stupid things like sijui you shall be cursed.

Cursed by whom? A drunkard?

Christians are Christians. I believe that my savior is Jesus Christ. Ok I'm kidding. But hell, if that's what I believe, why the hell should I pay some stupid people mbuzis?

If you want to have a club, please call it a club. Just like Muthaiga is for golfers. Don't make young people feel gulty for not buying you Muratina.

I'm a kyuk, my grand father was in Mau Mau. I have not seen a Kiama asshole help me in shit. but they turn up when there's booze in the house.

If they want to leave PCEA, si waende wafunue yao!!!!

Ati PCEA, physics says, the world will and shall rotate with or without Kiama drunkards.

While humans groups differ slightly biologically - the biggest differences happen to occur in the myths they intersubjectively choose to believe in. That's it... tofauti ya mwafrica na mzungu ni hiyo tu!the state that mzungu lived was no different from that ya mwafrican 1500 years ago. We were exactly the same for 65,000 years! The biological differences between mzungu and mwafrica did not start juzi. Tofauti ya Mkenya na Mtanzania ni hiyo pia... the myths we choose to believe in. Tofauti ya state of mkenya na mtanzania sio 100 years old. Same as the state of Kenyans and South Sudanese or Somali. Mjaluo wa Kenya and MDinka have very little biological difference but the myths they choose/forced/grew up with are different and it explains their differences. So the stark difference even in Kenya between one group of people (can be a family or an ethnic community or brothers are the myths they believe in). We do agree that some people are 'ahead' of others on some fronts. Denmark for example is a much nicer place to be when you are an old person than south sudan. All these differences are caused by 'culture' - the collection of myths we live our lives by. Unlike the differences in the biology of people - the differences in culture are HUGE... there are SUPERIOR CULTURES and there are RETROGRESSIVE CULTURES. The very fact that we have 'our' culture is a myth... enforced by these cultures to help them stay relevant and propagate. Each culture that did not have an effective 'propagation' mechanism -died when the guy who imagined it died! Once others choose to believe it... the culture lives on... if we don't - it dies ... most of these myths were indoctrinated to us when we didn't know better - when young and impressionable. The only way a RETROGRESSIVE MYTH can be propagated to a person who knows better is through guilt! But let's not fall for it! let's be held at ransom to hold on to what is demonstrably inferior and self-serving JUST BECAUSE OUR ANCESTORS COULD NOT COME UP WITH A BETTER MYTH especially because we know better myths exist! You are not your ancestor! It's quite likely that the ancestor who first dreamed what you were being guilt tripped into believing and enforcing knew what you know - they would not come up with what they came up with. They can be excused for their ignorance - you cannot!

@alma#001, that the Kiana is now a days corrupt is one thing that is very distant from the main issue at hand.

The main issue here, is if, the Presbyterian Church is in order when it declares people who partake in a certain traditional ceremony as 'unchristian' and therefore what?

We should be concerned when a critical institution like the Church takes such an approach. Clearly, what's the main concern of the Church in this case? Denying you what?

It's very difficult for me to see how the Presbyters are being Christian on this matter. This is politics. It's a simple desire to control.

Of course you are a control freak alma. We all know it. But, we're all limited creatures who can never figure it all out. Why can't we just even revere our ancestors for that matter?

Is it true, for example, that Christ is the first and last ancestor? It can't be. And the discourse of Christ is the very discourse of our ancestors.

It's the same tyranny of fear being played on people! Wake up alma!

Truth be told, from a non-kikuyu, attending a Kikuyu social functions i am never able to tell if it is a church function or a cultural function. Modern Kikuyu(ism) so intertwined with Christian(ism).

Kikuyu's were monotheist worshiping one God not so different from monotheistic Christian God. Is it far-fetched to think that 2000 years of Ethiopians [our neighbors up North] Christian/Judaistic beliefs didn't reach the Kikuyu's?