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President Uhuru Kenyatta 2nd Term - 2017/2022
Swenani
#101 Posted : Tuesday, February 20, 2018 7:32:18 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
In other part of the world

Quote:
Singaporeans aged 21 and above will get a “hong bao”, or Lunar New Year red packet, as Finance Minister Heng Swee Keat announced a “one-off” bonus in 2018 of up to S$300 ($228.50), depending on their income.

The bonus comes after Singapore’s trade-reliant economy grew 3.6 per cent in 2017, its best pace in three years.

Song Seng Wun, an economist for CIMB private banking, said the one-off “hong bao” bonus was a product of Singapore’s economy having a “better than expected outcome” in the last year.
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
Fyatu
#102 Posted : Tuesday, February 20, 2018 7:38:52 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,820
Location: Nakuru
A huge portion of Kenya's borrowing if from China. The Chinese government wants to establish a marine trade route from China, India, Middle east, East Africa and Europe.(google 'One belt one road' project to learn about it).

As with all loans, collateral must be given. Folk in Central refer to this as 'gucuria mugunda'.

Sri Lanka for example has leased one of its ports to China for 99 years as payment for inability to pay a US$ 1.3b. loan to build the port. Some have called this Ukoloni but from where i stand, let the Chinese build and run. They are already paying themselves with SGR with a 10 year concession with year one elapsing June 2018.If you did a random survey while travelling on SGR, most travellers will tell you they'd rather let the Chinese run the railway for 25 years because they fear that if it was left to us Africans, we will run it down with our corruption and nepotism.( this is to me is very disappointing because at this age and time, we Africans/kenyans still have not yet figured it out - to run our social-economic affairs without corruption.)


Therefore if you ask me, i'd say let Uhuruto continue borrowing and build the one belt one road project. With a little austerity measures(more so recurrent expenditure and the usual government wastage e.g., 200m shillings Madaraka day celebrations etc) a one trillion shilling tax revenue Kenya can pay these loans in a shorter period.
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
wukan
#103 Posted : Tuesday, February 20, 2018 7:41:23 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,589
@murchr the rate of borrowing as calculated by Cyton

Quote:
explains Cytonn, debt per capita has grown faster at an eight-year compound annual growth rate of 15.4 per cent as compared to GDP per capital at 9.8 per cent.
Read more at: https://www.standardmedi...greece-like-debt-crisis


The bigger issue is the borrowing pegged to the libor rate
For the SGR:
(1) $1.6 billion is at concessional interest rates of 2%
(2) $2.0 billion is at commercial interest rates: "6-month LIBOR + 360 basis points plus insurance at a rate of 6%".

Please check the historical charts for libor rate(upward trend). It's usually tied to what the Americans are doing fiscally. Trump is planning huge fiscal deficits in coming years that will necessarily push interest rates high(no there is no interest rate capping internationally). How high? A guy called Volcker who pushed rates to 20% in 1980's. Do you want estimate what libor rate will be once we start paying for SGR. You have not counted the Euro-bonds.

Let's now say Kenya borrowed to improve productivity. What are the figures that show there is more production because of the debt? Have our exports dramatically improved to get dollars to repay the debt. Nope. Is KRA growing revenue at same rate as the debt growth? Nope.

So how will Kenya pay for the debt?
Fyatu
#104 Posted : Tuesday, February 20, 2018 7:59:02 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,820
Location: Nakuru
How Kenya is related to the one silk road project

Kenya has enough collateral to pay these debts so lets borrow and build for exponential economic growth of the future.
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
murchr
#105 Posted : Tuesday, February 20, 2018 9:14:17 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
wukan wrote:
@murchr the rate of borrowing as calculated by Cyton

Quote:
explains Cytonn, debt per capita has grown faster at an eight-year compound annual growth rate of 15.4 per cent as compared to GDP per capital at 9.8 per cent.
Read more at: https://www.standardmedi...greece-like-debt-crisis


The bigger issue is the borrowing pegged to the libor rate
For the SGR:
(1) $1.6 billion is at concessional interest rates of 2%
(2) $2.0 billion is at commercial interest rates: "6-month LIBOR + 360 basis points plus insurance at a rate of 6%".

Please check the historical charts for libor rate(upward trend). It's usually tied to what the Americans are doing fiscally. Trump is planning huge fiscal deficits in coming years that will necessarily push interest rates high(no there is no interest rate capping internationally). How high? A guy called Volcker who pushed rates to 20% in 1980's. Do you want estimate what libor rate will be once we start paying for SGR. You have not counted the Euro-bonds.

Let's now say Kenya borrowed to improve productivity. What are the figures that show there is more production because of the debt? Have our exports dramatically improved to get dollars to repay the debt. Nope. Is KRA growing revenue at same rate as the debt growth? Nope.

So how will Kenya pay for the debt?


1. Fiscal deficit = when a gov total expenditure exceeds revenue. In other words, what Trump is planning to do is spend more than the US gov is producing. Now you said

wukan wrote:
Trump is planning huge fiscal deficits in coming years that will necessarily push interest rates high(no there is no interest rate capping internationally). How high? A guy called Volcker who pushed rates to 20% in 1980's.


The interest rates in the US are going higher and will continue to go higher infact it is expected that in 2018, the Fed(central bank of the US) will raise the interest rate 3 times. So what impact does that have on the govt - govt negotiated loans(Kenya - China? Me dont see much.


On to Libor

Quote:


What is 'LIBOR'
LIBOR or ICE LIBOR (previously BBA LIBOR) is a benchmark rate, which some of the world’s leading banks charge each other for short-term loans. It stands for Intercontinental Exchange London Interbank Offered Rate and serves as the first step to calculating interest rates on various loans throughout the world. LIBOR is administered by the ICE Benchmark Administration (IBA), and is based on five currencies: U.S. dollar (USD), Euro (EUR), pound sterling (GBP), Japanese yen (JPY), and Swiss franc (CHF). The LIBOR serves seven different maturities: overnight, one week, and 1, 2, 3, 6 and 12 months. There are a total of 35 different LIBOR rates each business day. The most commonly quoted rate is the three-month U.S. dollar rate (usually referred to as the “current LIBOR rate”).


So what do we notice here. There are 7 maturities that span from overnight to 12 months. Not fixed, could be high today or lower tomorrow. Another thing that stands out is that its short-term. The chinese loan is issued on a 360 basis point above the Libor rate or 3.6% if you like. This will be 3.6% + the Libor rate in August 2023 (10-year grace period - 30year payment period). We dont know what kind of world we will be in in 2023 for the rate to be at whatever rate you imagine, it could be high or low. Time will tell.


Wukan wrote:
Let's now say Kenya borrowed to improve productivity. What are the figures that show there is more production because of the debt? Have our exports dramatically improved to get dollars to repay the debt. Nope. Is KRA growing revenue at same rate as the debt growth? Nope.


If Kenya borrows to build a pipeline that transports oil from Turkana selling the oil at today's price of $65 will Kenya's exports have improved dramatically? Since you are using historical data to foresee the future, what impact did the Lunatic express have in this country 60 years after it was built? Can we transport goods cheaply without infrastructure? Can we attain that competitive edge on fear

What creates wealth?
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
wukan
#106 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 7:33:53 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,589
Quote:
The interest rates in the US are going higher and will continue to go higher infact it is expected that in 2018, the Fed(central bank of the US) will raise the interest rate 3 times. So what impact does that have on the govt - govt negotiated loans(Kenya - China? Me dont see much.


Think about it that interest rates are going higher and the dollar is going lower. It means the market knows the US rates will need to go much higher to attract dollars to the US assets(Actually we may get better interest rates with our Euro-bonds than equivalent US junk bonds). If US rates get to sufficient level then the dollars hanging around will rush home. Kenya has 2 billion dollars to repay in 2024 Eurobonds. What the impact you ask-the forex reserves get depleted then currency gets devalued and kenya imports inflation

Quote:
This will be 3.6% + the Libor rate in August 2023 (10-year grace period - 30year payment period). We dont know what kind of world we will be in in 2023 for the rate to be at whatever rate you imagine, it could be high or low. Time will tell.

Well I'm glad that you are now appreciating the risk. What if the Libor rate is at 10% in 2023

Quote:
If Kenya borrows to build a pipeline that transports oil from Turkana selling the oil at today's price of $65 will Kenya's exports have improved dramatically? Since you are using historical data to foresee the future, what impact did the Lunatic express have in this country 60 years after it was built? Can we transport goods cheaply without infrastructure? Can we attain that competitive edge on fear


The pipeline is being built by Total/Tullow so whatever capital investment dollars they bring in we spend to repay Kenya's debt. There is much cheaper oil in the world than Turkana's. It's more likely oil price drops to $30-35 which makes Turkana oil unviable to commercially exploit.

Lunatic express has been here for 100+ years it's not improved our exports. It was a white elephant whose cost of repayment eventually led to the mau mau conflict. The cargo volumes in east africa will not magically go up because of SGR. The cargo volumes to satisfy SGR capacity will appear maybe in 2050. Most of Kenya's valuable exports horticulture are exported through airports not seaports.

I will answer you last queries later
Ngalaka
#107 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 7:55:47 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
These winding back and forths can easily lose focus of the real issue;

Is further borrowing in principle, ok for Kenya today - barring corruption issues.
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
KulaRaha
#108 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 8:22:49 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,514
Ngalaka wrote:
These winding back and forths can easily lose focus of the real issue;

Is further borrowing in principle, ok for Kenya today - barring corruption issues.


No. We should refrain from borrowing until we can recover some stolen funds or improve tax revenue.
Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
Ngalaka
#109 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 8:40:09 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
KulaRaha wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
These winding back and forths can easily lose focus of the real issue;

Is further borrowing in principle, ok for Kenya today - barring corruption issues.


No. We should refrain from borrowing until we can recover some stolen funds or improve tax revenue.

Is it really to be considered prudent to predicate our development on recovery of stolen funds!
Bearing in mind that such matters can drag in court for eon years
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
KulaRaha
#110 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 8:43:24 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,514
We cant keep borrowing and stealing...one needs to stop.
Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
Ngalaka
#111 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 8:48:39 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
KulaRaha wrote:
We cant keep borrowing and stealing...one needs to stop.

The one, and the only one that should stop is the stealing, which I agree has been rampant.

In other words we agree, only to the extent that stealing should stop, or at least be brought under control.
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
KulaRaha
#112 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 9:51:44 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,514
Ngalaka wrote:
KulaRaha wrote:
We cant keep borrowing and stealing...one needs to stop.

The one, and the only one that should stop is the stealing, which I agree has been rampant.

In other words we agree, only to the extent that stealing should stop, or at least be brought under control.


Thieves should be taxed for what they steal...
Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
Liv
#113 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 12:35:17 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/14/2006
Posts: 1,311
wukan wrote:


Lunatic express has been here for 100+ years it's not improved our exports. It was a white elephant whose cost of repayment eventually led to the mau mau conflict. The cargo volumes in east africa will not magically go up because of SGR. The cargo volumes to satisfy SGR capacity will appear maybe in 2050. Most of Kenya's valuable exports horticulture are exported through airports not seaports.

I will answer you last queries later



@Wukan,
The highlighted part made me laugh out loudly...."what caused mau mau rebellion?" which history book did you get that from?


wukan
#114 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 2:09:23 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,589
Liv wrote:
wukan wrote:


Lunatic express has been here for 100+ years it's not improved our exports. It was a white elephant whose cost of repayment eventually led to the mau mau conflict. The cargo volumes in east africa will not magically go up because of SGR. The cargo volumes to satisfy SGR capacity will appear maybe in 2050. Most of Kenya's valuable exports horticulture are exported through airports not seaports.

I will answer you last queries later



@Wukan,
The highlighted part made me laugh out loudly...."what caused mau mau rebellion?" which history book did you get that from?




Correct if I'm wrong lunatic express was quite expensive and it had to pay for itself. This was done by encouraging the establishment of 'white highlands'to fuel a modern economy. That also meant forcing the what they called natives into native reserves, the start of the hut tax and poll tax forcing the natives to exchange labor for money to pay tax. Isn't it the peasants who were expelled from the rift valley who gathered up to form the Land and Freedom Army, the army of ithaka na wiathi.

Same thing with SGR instead of 'white highlands' you instead have establishment of Special economic zones SEZs
hardwood
#115 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 2:17:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Liv wrote:
wukan wrote:


Lunatic express has been here for 100+ years it's not improved our exports. It was a white elephant whose cost of repayment eventually led to the mau mau conflict. The cargo volumes in east africa will not magically go up because of SGR. The cargo volumes to satisfy SGR capacity will appear maybe in 2050. Most of Kenya's valuable exports horticulture are exported through airports not seaports.

I will answer you last queries later



@Wukan,
The highlighted part made me laugh out loudly...."what caused mau mau rebellion?" which history book did you get that from?




Why should a truck ferry a container of tea all the way from kericho to mombasa? Or coffee from nyeri. Or macadamia from embu. Or tobacco from kehancha in migori? Or hides and skins from west pokot. Why not put the containers on the SGR at Naivasha or nairobi? There is enough export cargo for SGR.

Also mombasa and coast region gets alot of produce eg maize, beans, wheat, cabbages and manufactured goods from upcountry. These could also be ferried via SGR.
wukan
#116 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 3:26:08 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,589
Quote:
Can we transport goods cheaply without infrastructure? Can we attain that competitive edge on fear


Yes you can transport goods cheaply without expensive infrastructure. If you are manufacturing for export why not locate the industries at the coastal belt or it is re-export locate the industries in kisumu

Quote:
what creates wealth


Simple wealth is the output of production. The interplay of the factors of production capital, labor, land and technology (human capital) is what turns idle resources into wealth. The road to wealth starts by providing goods and services that the population wants and is willing to pay for. The more goods and services produced the more the wealth and infrastructure to serve the economy grows.
The economy grows where there is an exchange of goods and knowledge. Urban expansion is the best way to promote the exchange of knowledge and promote the division and specialization of labor.

Government spending does not stimulate economic growth. It just redistributes the income it collects from taxes. It misallocates capital towards less productive uses. It is wasteful in expenditure e.g. 10 bob biro pen will cost the govt 150. Kenya economic history shows growth has come when govt has taken a back seat and allowed private sector generate wealth.
Swenani
#117 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 3:33:43 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
wukan wrote:
Quote:
Can we transport goods cheaply without infrastructure? Can we attain that competitive edge on fear


Yes you can transport goods cheaply without expensive infrastructure. If you are manufacturing for export why not locate the industries at the coastal belt or it is re-export locate the industries in kisumu



How would you transport the raw materials? E.g Assume you are exporting tea and the raw materials come from Kericho and the factory is in Mombasa? Also, are raw materials cheap to transport or finished goods?
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
hardwood
#118 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 3:56:49 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
wukan wrote:


Quote:
what creates wealth


Simple wealth is the output of production. The interplay of the factors of production capital, labor, land and technology (human capital) is what turns idle resources into wealth. The road to wealth starts by providing goods and services that the population wants and is willing to pay for. The more goods and services produced the more the wealth and infrastructure to serve the economy grows.
The economy grows where there is an exchange of goods and knowledge. Urban expansion is the best way to promote the exchange of knowledge and promote the division and specialization of labor.

Government spending does not stimulate economic growth. It just redistributes the income it collects from taxes. It misallocates capital towards less productive uses. It is wasteful in expenditure e.g. 10 bob biro pen will cost the govt 150. Kenya economic history shows growth has come when govt has taken a back seat and allowed private sector generate wealth.


The very reason I was opposing the move by kivutha to get his county govt into business.
wukan
#119 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 4:33:26 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,589
Swenani wrote:
wukan wrote:
Quote:
Can we transport goods cheaply without infrastructure? Can we attain that competitive edge on fear


Yes you can transport goods cheaply without expensive infrastructure. If you are manufacturing for export why not locate the industries at the coastal belt or it is re-export locate the industries in kisumu



How would you transport the raw materials? E.g Assume you are exporting tea and the raw materials come from Kericho and the factory is in Mombasa? Also, are raw materials cheap to transport or finished goods?


Are you saying when Brooke Bond started tea exports in 1924 they needed the SGR? Read the sentence in context you don't need advanced capital intensive infrastructure to establish industry.
Fullykenyan
#120 Posted : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 4:50:33 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/27/2014
Posts: 560
Location: Eastlando
wukan wrote:
Swenani wrote:
wukan wrote:
Quote:
Can we transport goods cheaply without infrastructure? Can we attain that competitive edge on fear


Yes you can transport goods cheaply without expensive infrastructure. If you are manufacturing for export why not locate the industries at the coastal belt or it is re-export locate the industries in kisumu



How would you transport the raw materials? E.g Assume you are exporting tea and the raw materials come from Kericho and the factory is in Mombasa? Also, are raw materials cheap to transport or finished goods?


Are you saying when Brooke Bond started tea exports in 1924 they needed the SGR? Read the sentence in context you don't need advanced capital intensive infrastructure to establish industry.

Economist Solow in his Solow modell describes how a country can beat poverty in a space of fifteen years
In a nutshell he says, the rate of technogical advacement in a year should exceed populational growth.It is then and only then, that country can beat poverty
In few words, there is no economic growth without investmenting in things like SGR.
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