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What ails Kenya...and the prescription
Angelica _ann
#21 Posted : Saturday, October 14, 2017 9:43:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,908
Liv wrote:
FRM2011 wrote:
Fullykenyan wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
limanika wrote:
Kenya's problem is that our 2010 constitution created a winner takes all scenario. Subsequently, when you have a presidential candidate commanding over 40% of the votes, and then they are left in the cold, your supporters will feel left out and will vent out anger indirectly like is happening. Can parliament amend section 90 of constitution to allow any pork candidate and running mate who gets over 30% of total votes to be nominated to parliament. This doesn't require referendum. It will cure amolos malady and also ensure that in future we don't lose talent



The perennial pain in Kenya's ass is known. He has been at it since 1982. The solution is for a brave Nairobi business person to take him out to Makueni


Very irresponsible comment.


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly That statement can get @fyatu elected to parliament. So its not irresponsible. In central kenya, they have been made to believe that all their problems start and end with Rao. The landless are told its because of Raila they don't have land. Forget Rao doesn't own an acre of land in central.

Witchcraft is real.



Which central are you referring to here? Total nonsense!!


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
hamburglar
#22 Posted : Sunday, October 15, 2017 8:33:31 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/17/2011
Posts: 887
Abolish and phase out tribes and mother tongue languages in Kenya and only then will we start voting leaders based on merit, ability and quality instead of tribal inclinations like we are doing now. Very simple solution.
FRM2011
#23 Posted : Sunday, October 15, 2017 10:07:39 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/5/2010
Posts: 2,459
hamburglar wrote:
Abolish and phase out tribes and mother tongue languages in Kenya and only then will we start voting leaders based on merit, ability and quality instead of tribal inclinations like we are doing now. Very simple solution.


@ham, am surprised you have left out the bigger problem than tribe i.e religion. I have observed that atheists are more rational in their approach to issues.

Maybe it's their style of questioning everything. Or like @masukuma told us "knowledge trumps belief". But I doubt you can find an aethist who is also a diehard tribalist.

One day when religion loses its stranglehold on humanity, peace will prevail.

ION, Buddhism was supposed to be the cool religion which emphasizes inner peace and calm. Now we know they are cold blooded killers.

https://www.theguardian....yi-myanmar-icon-rohingya
FRM2011
#24 Posted : Sunday, October 15, 2017 10:13:32 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/5/2010
Posts: 2,459
hamburglar wrote:
Abolish and phase out tribes and mother tongue languages in Kenya and only then will we start voting leaders based on merit, ability and quality instead of tribal inclinations like we are doing now. Very simple solution.


@ham, am surprised you have left out the bigger problem than tribe i.e religion. I have observed that atheists are more rational in their approach to issues.

Maybe it's their style of questioning everything. Or like @masukuma told us "knowledge trumps belief". But I doubt you can find an aethist who is also a diehard tribalist.

One day when religion loses its stranglehold on humanity, peace will prevail.

ION, Buddhism was supposed to be the cool religion which emphasizes inner peace and calm. Now we know they are cold blooded killers.

https://www.theguardian....yi-myanmar-icon-rohingya
washiku
#25 Posted : Sunday, October 15, 2017 11:14:54 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 13,095
The problem in Kenya is "What is the deal"

The first thing we think of when someone is elected is how they can help us get the deal. Its never about policies for all Kenyans, as long as the one in there will guarantee me the selfish deal. In fact as we congratulate them, its always with the deal in mind.

Those with access to the deal then looks for the way to protect it, and that is how the poor masses come in. They 'fund' the elections with enough resources to do propaganda and distribute enough 100s, 500s etc. And to ensure the masses continues to be a weapon for this trade, they must be made to remain poor through whatever means...
hamburglar
#26 Posted : Sunday, October 15, 2017 1:25:02 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/17/2011
Posts: 887
FRM2011 wrote:
[quote=hamburglar]Abolish and phase out tribes and mother tongue languages in Kenya and only then will we start voting leaders based on merit, ability and quality instead of tribal inclinations like we are doing now. Very simple solution.


@ham, am surprised you have left out the bigger problem than tribe i.e religion. I have observed that atheists are more rational in their approach to issues.

Maybe it's their style of questioning everything. Or like @masukuma told us "knowledge trumps belief". But I doubt you can find an aethist who is also a diehard tribalist.

One day when religion loses its stranglehold on humanity, peace will prevail.

ION, Buddhism was supposed to be the cool religion which emphasizes inner peace and calm. Now we know they are cold blooded killers.

https://www.theguardian....i-myanmar-icon-rohingya[/quote]

I hear you FRM2011 but religion is actually a world scourge that has been detrimental to humanity for decades. It has really held people back all over the globe and not just in Kenya. We shall revist religion some other day but as far as Kenya is concerned right now, tribes and tribalism is definitely the biggest problem. Right now the hatred between Luos and Kikuyus is really really despicable and could turn very ugly if we are not careful.

It's unbelievable how much people who live together, work together, inter-marry can have so much bad blood against each other. My point is, were Uhuru and Raila just some run of the mill Kenyans who speak only Swahili and English and not Kikuyu and Luo, we wouldn't be having all this trouble. The worst that would happen is we would be fighting and demonstrating against the development records, leadership qualities of each of them and progressive things like that. But that's not the case and will never be the case in Kenya until we abolish tribes and only have Swahili and English as the only languages.

This thing is so bad we even have tribal imbeciles getting into the mix in London and New York. Very unfortunate.

And yes, we atheists are rational beings and that's why we are hardly tribalists. We try to look at things objectively. There is nothing as powerful as seeking knowledge.

deadpoet
#27 Posted : Sunday, October 15, 2017 2:52:28 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/27/2006
Posts: 503
^^ He speaks the truth.
wukan
#28 Posted : Monday, October 16, 2017 3:32:45 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,590
tycho wrote:
Who/what engineered Kenya, and how was Kenya engineered?

Are there engineering standards to be met?

Or rather the whole matter is an engineering problem but which requires knowledge of how a human works.

So the entire question may be restated in terms of our understanding of how individuals work and whether there are optimal states and how the whole body politic fares statistically.

This offers a perspective that is supported by the practice and craft of bodies politics from the ancients.

So the prescription is to go back to our ancestors and ancients and rediscover the craft.


The nation state is a recent phenomenon to humanity. It's legal fiction engineered by lawyers and designed to benefit a small elite. The nation state has to be held together by force of arms, bribery of the elite through state jobs and tenders. The nation state is obsolete and it's likely to disappear by the turn of the century. Our obsession to create a nation state is tearing us apart.

Why can't we go back to the system of city states. Greek city states gave us the republic and democracy. Italian city states gave us the renaissance. The swahili city states lasted 500 years in prosperity and peaceful co-existence open trade. They created a distinctive culture and language. The history of humanity has been about creating cities and their hinterlands. That's the craft we need to rediscover



tycho
#29 Posted : Monday, October 16, 2017 10:40:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
limanika wrote:
tycho wrote:
Who/what engineered Kenya, and how was Kenya engineered?

Are there engineering standards to be met?

Or rather the whole matter is an engineering problem but which requires knowledge of how a human works.

So the entire question may be restated in terms of our understanding of how individuals work and whether there are optimal states and how the whole body politic fares statistically.

This offers a perspective that is supported by the practice and craft of bodies politics from the ancients.

So the prescription is to go back to our ancestors and ancients and rediscover the craft.

Ancient govts were no better. Apart from Gikuyu where an entire ageset was in power and matters resolved by council of elders, most other societies were monarchies, you were either born in royalty or otherwise you were savage. Until the French revolution ushered in modern day form of govt - democracy. But all scholars agree democracy is not a perfect type of government. Maybe it is time for Kenya to invent a better form of govt and benqueth to the world, just like the French did couple of centuries ago. But do we wait for Kenyan revolution?


1. How can we know which instances and systems of government are better than others? How do we know that the measure or comparisons are reliable?

2. In what ways are democracies like instantiated by the French revolution better than monarchies? And how are the Kikuyu councils equal or comparable to the Jacobins?

These are questions that just can't be answered in a cavalier fashion.

Therefore I can say that the question about our polity can't be answered by most of us here in wazua. And we need to even understand who are qualified to tackle the question.
tycho
#30 Posted : Monday, October 16, 2017 10:52:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
wukan wrote:
tycho wrote:
Who/what engineered Kenya, and how was Kenya engineered?

Are there engineering standards to be met?

Or rather the whole matter is an engineering problem but which requires knowledge of how a human works.

So the entire question may be restated in terms of our understanding of how individuals work and whether there are optimal states and how the whole body politic fares statistically.

This offers a perspective that is supported by the practice and craft of bodies politics from the ancients.

So the prescription is to go back to our ancestors and ancients and rediscover the craft.


The nation state is a recent phenomenon to humanity. It's legal fiction engineered by lawyers and designed to benefit a small elite. The nation state has to be held together by force of arms, bribery of the elite through state jobs and tenders. The nation state is obsolete and it's likely to disappear by the turn of the century. Our obsession to create a nation state is tearing us apart.

Why can't we go back to the system of city states. Greek city states gave us the republic and democracy. Italian city states gave us the renaissance. The swahili city states lasted 500 years in prosperity and peaceful co-existence open trade. They created a distinctive culture and language. The history of humanity has been about creating cities and their hinterlands. That's the craft we need to rediscover



I think the nation state is ancient, especially when we realize that nations are almost always abstractions.

But I agree that nationhood is inefficient and even ineffective. Sadly not many of us have come to terms with this fact.

Exclusivity is the begining of imperialism and imperialism implies elitisim.

Does the international and global system have its own intelligence? How can we access this intelligence? Our craft relies so much on this.
limanika
#31 Posted : Saturday, October 21, 2017 2:44:59 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
http://www.nation.co.ke/...9152-kvksb2z/index.html

This is what we are saying. Much as Kenya is a democracy with majoritarian rule, we have a significant portion of the populace who support NASA, and indeed feel bitter that ‘they have never been able to capture state power since independence’ and that their man and only hope, is not making headway in this game in his ultimate or near ultimate contest. For these people to feel at home, to have dignity and sense of national pride, we need their leader to be in a position where he can present their grievances formally, not through the streets. Much as I don’t like his ways, I believe Rao should be leader of majority either in NA or Senate, with Kalonzo holding same position in the other house.

Yes he has caused us to stagnate, brought us to the precipice a number of times, but there are large number of people who believe he is a well meaning person. If you ignore their views, their anger will tend to manifest in other ways. You will keep hearing about Session.

And even if it was just for the sake of national security, it is too dangerous to have someone like Rao just out there ‘idle’. Remember good old practice, whereby when military generals retire, they are given some light duties to keep them busy. Otherwise Govt will spend next 5 years trying to contain him, and will be too distracted to focus on core business – building the nation. In deed this has been the case last 20 years…our politics have been dominated by raila phobia and raila mania, at the expense of development. Kibaki and Uhuru have spent nearly 50% of their time in power trying to manage/deal with these phobias at the expense of development.

Even Nzamba the man who delivered our Constitution believes it was a mistake to leave out the PORK runners up out there in the cold.
We don’t need a referendum to do this. Parliament only need to change section 90 of the constitution.
tycho
#32 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 9:13:42 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
limanika wrote:
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Beyond-IEBC--What-options-for-Kenya--/1056-4149152-kvksb2z/index.html

This is what we are saying. Much as Kenya is a democracy with majoritarian rule, we have a significant portion of the populace who support NASA, and indeed feel bitter that ‘they have never been able to capture state power since independence’ and that their man and only hope, is not making headway in this game in his ultimate or near ultimate contest. For these people to feel at home, to have dignity and sense of national pride, we need their leader to be in a position where he can present their grievances formally, not through the streets. Much as I don’t like his ways, I believe Rao should be leader of majority either in NA or Senate, with Kalonzo holding same position in the other house.

Yes he has caused us to stagnate, brought us to the precipice a number of times, but there are large number of people who believe he is a well meaning person. If you ignore their views, their anger will tend to manifest in other ways. You will keep hearing about Session.

And even if it was just for the sake of national security, it is too dangerous to have someone like Rao just out there ‘idle’. Remember good old practice, whereby when military generals retire, they are given some light duties to keep them busy. Otherwise Govt will spend next 5 years trying to contain him, and will be too distracted to focus on core business – building the nation. In deed this has been the case last 20 years…our politics have been dominated by raila phobia and raila mania, at the expense of development. Kibaki and Uhuru have spent nearly 50% of their time in power trying to manage/deal with these phobias at the expense of development.

Even Nzamba the man who delivered our Constitution believes it was a mistake to leave out the PORK runners up out there in the cold.
We don’t need a referendum to do this. Parliament only need to change section 90 of the constitution.


All politics is about sharing power. But to make the sharing of power among a few individuals is the big mistake that we are making.

Wanjiku needs some real power too. So far, we know the vote is a lie. So we must go beyond voting rights.
thuks
#33 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 10:00:10 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/8/2008
Posts: 1,575
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:


All politics is about sharing power. But to make the sharing of power among a few individuals is the big mistake that we are making.

Wanjiku needs some real power too. So far, we know the vote is a lie. So we must go beyond voting rights.

Yes, that reality was coldly served on 1 Sep 2017: numbers don't matter movement
I care!
murchr
#34 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 10:40:17 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:


All politics is about sharing power. But to make the sharing of power among a few individuals is the big mistake that we are making.

Wanjiku needs some real power too. So far, we know the vote is a lie. So we must go beyond voting rights.

Yes, that reality was coldly served on 1 Sep 2017: numbers don't matter movement



The constitution shared power with 47 governors.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
tycho
#35 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 11:00:55 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:


All politics is about sharing power. But to make the sharing of power among a few individuals is the big mistake that we are making.

Wanjiku needs some real power too. So far, we know the vote is a lie. So we must go beyond voting rights.

Yes, that reality was coldly served on 1 Sep 2017: numbers don't matter movement



The constitution shared power with 47 governors.


Kenya has 47m people and with a rate of arround 1m new entrants per year. Yet, no county can sustain itself without aid from the central government. That by itself kills all reality of devolved power.
masukuma
#36 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 11:52:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
While I think this conversation is a complete waste of time...
What ails us is that we think others are having fun out there and that our "differences" are unique to us. Majority of the countries have "ethnic issues". Secondly, we just need a proper source of money - we are a poor corrupt 3rd world country. We just need a country/people to exploit and f*ck over to get rich quickly
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
murchr
#37 Posted : Monday, October 23, 2017 1:22:33 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
tycho wrote:
murchr wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:


All politics is about sharing power. But to make the sharing of power among a few individuals is the big mistake that we are making.

Wanjiku needs some real power too. So far, we know the vote is a lie. So we must go beyond voting rights.

Yes, that reality was coldly served on 1 Sep 2017: numbers don't matter movement



The constitution shared power with 47 governors.


Kenya has 47m people and with a rate of arround 1m new entrants per year. Yet, no county can sustain itself without aid from the central government. That by itself kills all reality of devolved power.


The devolved govts should foster to being self sufficient, it may never happen entirely but a bigger % of their budget should be self funded, and decisions self determined. Even the states in the US have a % of their funding coming from the Federal govt.

As Masukush says, this conversation is pointless but as far as power sharing is concerned the governor who has got it right is Nanok and to some extend Mutua, the others are suffering from what Chebukati is suffering from, not realizing the power bestowed unto them.

By the way, Amazon intends to build a 2nd headquarters, all governors should have noted how the states went on bidding to host it. Will we ever see counties bidding to host companies? Bragging about infrastructure and all amenities to a good life?
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
limanika
#38 Posted : Monday, October 23, 2017 7:53:19 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
murchr wrote:
tycho wrote:
murchr wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:


All politics is about sharing power. But to make the sharing of power among a few individuals is the big mistake that we are making.

Wanjiku needs some real power too. So far, we know the vote is a lie. So we must go beyond voting rights.

Yes, that reality was coldly served on 1 Sep 2017: numbers don't matter movement



The constitution shared power with 47 governors.


Kenya has 47m people and with a rate of arround 1m new entrants per year. Yet, no county can sustain itself without aid from the central government. That by itself kills all reality of devolved power.


The devolved govts should foster to being self sufficient, it may never happen entirely but a bigger % of their budget should be self funded, and decisions self determined. Even the states in the US have a % of their funding coming from the Federal govt.

As Masukush says, this conversation is pointless but as far as power sharing is concerned the governor who has got it right is Nanok and to some extend Mutua, the others are suffering from what Chebukati is suffering from, not realizing the power bestowed unto them.

By the way, Amazon intends to build a 2nd headquarters, all governors should have noted how the states went on bidding to host it. Will we ever see counties bidding to host companies? Bragging about infrastructure and all amenities to a good life?

That's the ideal case. But America has been independent for 200+ yrs. They are a wealthy country but they have their dark side as well e.g race issues, crime, etc. so there is no perfect society. What we are trying to do is look at our situation and see what works. Right from independence, we started partially on the wrong foot as far as inclusivity is concerned. indeed, 2007 PEV came about after a period of impressive economic growth. So, as much as we need to fix the economy side of things, we are still mortals with little failings.

masukuma
#39 Posted : Monday, October 23, 2017 10:23:45 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
limanika wrote:
murchr wrote:
tycho wrote:
murchr wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:


All politics is about sharing power. But to make the sharing of power among a few individuals is the big mistake that we are making.

Wanjiku needs some real power too. So far, we know the vote is a lie. So we must go beyond voting rights.

Yes, that reality was coldly served on 1 Sep 2017: numbers don't matter movement



The constitution shared power with 47 governors.


Kenya has 47m people and with a rate of arround 1m new entrants per year. Yet, no county can sustain itself without aid from the central government. That by itself kills all reality of devolved power.


The devolved govts should foster to being self sufficient, it may never happen entirely but a bigger % of their budget should be self funded, and decisions self determined. Even the states in the US have a % of their funding coming from the Federal govt.

As Masukush says, this conversation is pointless but as far as power sharing is concerned the governor who has got it right is Nanok and to some extend Mutua, the others are suffering from what Chebukati is suffering from, not realizing the power bestowed unto them.

By the way, Amazon intends to build a 2nd headquarters, all governors should have noted how the states went on bidding to host it. Will we ever see counties bidding to host companies? Bragging about infrastructure and all amenities to a good life?

That's the ideal case. But America has been independent for 200+ yrs. They are a wealthy country but they have their dark side as well e.g race issues, crime, etc. so there is no perfect society. What we are trying to do is look at our situation and see what works. Right from independence, we started partially on the wrong foot as far as inclusivity is concerned. indeed, 2007 PEV came about after a period of impressive economic growth. So, as much as we need to fix the economy side of things, we are still mortals with little failings.



Why is this a metric for anything? Why is it seem to be synonymous with "growth"? What if you were not "colonized" or colonised others. It's like the more years you have been independent should be comparable to your development
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#40 Posted : Monday, October 23, 2017 11:51:17 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
masukuma wrote:
While I think this conversation is a complete waste of time...
What ails us is that we think others are having fun out there and that our "differences" are unique to us. Majority of the countries have "ethnic issues". Secondly, we just need a proper source of money - we are a poor corrupt 3rd world country. We just need a country/people to exploit and f*ck over to get rich quickly


I agree with you on one thing.

We think others are having fun and we're not. I call this primal guilt. Because it's something deeply inherent and ingrained in being human.

We don't need to exploit people to be 'better off', because exploitation relies on guilt.

I understand that you think this conversation a complete waste of time. It's because of the guilt in you.
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