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What the future holds
tycho
#1 Posted : Wednesday, October 18, 2017 7:52:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Back in 2013 I got feverish at the idea of Uhuru and Raila each insisting that they should be president. Given what happened in 2007, and the trends set by earlier elections it's possible to tell where we are going as a nations-state now and into the future.

We've been cooking a war, and the meal is about to be served.

Right now, the government has lost legitimacy no matter what it chooses to do. Jubilee is only fooling itself if it thinks the repeat elections will legitimize it.

The opposition too has lost legitimacy and the capacity to unite the state. The opposition cannot win this war.

So my friends, stop supporting the two factions. They lead nowhere. Let's build something new.
kivairu
#2 Posted : Wednesday, October 18, 2017 8:21:33 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/5/2008
Posts: 532
Location: Nairobi
Lets cut the crap,,,rename this group kameme Fox News...contributions froms phd ; muratina tapper's school; kamirithu aka mungiki kingdom school ..here we go..

Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein.
tycho
#3 Posted : Wednesday, October 18, 2017 8:45:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
kivairu wrote:
Lets cut the crap,,,rename this group kameme Fox News...contributions froms phd ; muratina tapper's school; kamirithu aka mungiki kingdom school ..here we go..


The crap is in the grouping...
quicksand
#4 Posted : Wednesday, October 18, 2017 9:16:53 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
Back in 2013 I got feverish at the idea of Uhuru and Raila each insisting that they should be president. Given what happened in 2007, and the trends set by earlier elections it's possible to tell where we are going as a nations-state now and into the future.

We've been cooking a war, and the meal is about to be served.

Right now, the government has lost legitimacy no matter what it chooses to do. Jubilee is only fooling itself if it thinks the repeat elections will legitimize it.

The opposition too has lost legitimacy and the capacity to unite the state. The opposition cannot win this war.

So my friends, stop supporting the two factions. They lead nowhere. Let's build something new.


Build what? And how?
If you had an idea, you would tell us. At least those who support a side are honest with themselves. They have convictions about their side, regardless of its flaws. This academic wankery is pointless. If you can't pick a side, you shut up and let those who have ideas carry on with business,then live with the consequences. But you don't to dismiss all the options as untenable and not offer a solution.
I will leave here a quote by Roosevelt that should give serious pause:
Quote:

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

Lolest!
#5 Posted : Wednesday, October 18, 2017 9:21:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
kivairu wrote:
Lets cut the crap,,,rename this group kameme Fox News...contributions froms phd ; muratina tapper's school; kamirithu aka mungiki kingdom school ..here we go..

You get outnumbered, you start cheap branding/insults

Grow up!
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
tycho
#6 Posted : Wednesday, October 18, 2017 9:37:34 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
quicksand wrote:
tycho wrote:
Back in 2013 I got feverish at the idea of Uhuru and Raila each insisting that they should be president. Given what happened in 2007, and the trends set by earlier elections it's possible to tell where we are going as a nations-state now and into the future.

We've been cooking a war, and the meal is about to be served.

Right now, the government has lost legitimacy no matter what it chooses to do. Jubilee is only fooling itself if it thinks the repeat elections will legitimize it.

The opposition too has lost legitimacy and the capacity to unite the state. The opposition cannot win this war.

So my friends, stop supporting the two factions. They lead nowhere. Let's build something new.


Build what? And how?
If you had an idea, you would tell us. At least those who support a side are honest with themselves. They have convictions about their side, regardless of its flaws. This academic wankery is pointless. If you can't pick a side, you shut up and let those who have ideas carry on with business,then live with the consequences. But you don't to dismiss all the options as untenable and not offer a solution.
I will leave here a quote by Roosevelt that should give serious pause:
Quote:

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.



I guess this is one of the rare occurrences where you show how much you're steeped in prejudice. Instead of simply asking a question you attack with your prejudgements. But I don't want to turn this to an ad hominem.

1. Ask yourself, is it trully worth it to choose either, or, when both sides are clearly leading the country to the doldrums?

2. Is it unworthy to consider other options for action before making a choice?

I can also answer the questions you've paused.

Build what? A new political ideology and world. Of course I have an idea and that's why I've posted!

I expect better engagement from you quicksand!
quicksand
#7 Posted : Wednesday, October 18, 2017 11:02:36 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
quicksand wrote:
tycho wrote:
Back in 2013 I got feverish at the idea of Uhuru and Raila each insisting that they should be president. Given what happened in 2007, and the trends set by earlier elections it's possible to tell where we are going as a nations-state now and into the future.

We've been cooking a war, and the meal is about to be served.

Right now, the government has lost legitimacy no matter what it chooses to do. Jubilee is only fooling itself if it thinks the repeat elections will legitimize it.

The opposition too has lost legitimacy and the capacity to unite the state. The opposition cannot win this war.

So my friends, stop supporting the two factions. They lead nowhere. Let's build something new.


Build what? And how?
If you had an idea, you would tell us. At least those who support a side are honest with themselves. They have convictions about their side, regardless of its flaws. This academic wankery is pointless. If you can't pick a side, you shut up and let those who have ideas carry on with business,then live with the consequences. But you don't to dismiss all the options as untenable and not offer a solution.
I will leave here a quote by Roosevelt that should give serious pause:
Quote:

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.



I guess this is one of the rare occurrences where you show how much you're steeped in prejudice. Instead of simply asking a question you attack with your prejudgements. But I don't want to turn this to an ad hominem.

1. Ask yourself, is it trully worth it to choose either, or, when both sides are clearly leading the country to the doldrums?

2. Is it unworthy to consider other options for action before making a choice?

I can also answer the questions you've paused.

Build what? A new political ideology and world. Of course I have an idea and that's why I've posted!

I expect better engagement from you quicksand!

Right you are. I am prejudiced against these presumptions that something better than what we have exists, and yet you can't explain or even give an outline of what it is. You circle the same nebulous points. The answer to your first question is you can sit on the fence, since the reality is the systems we have at present dont suit you. As for the second, what are those options? What is this political ideology you espouse? Do tell us please...
The world, people and different forms of government have existed for millenia. History and folly led Churchill to say "democracy is the worst form of government..except for all the other forms". You are going to invent a new kind of government or democracy, that is fair to all and transcends what we have? Your creation will be immune to all human weaknesses like greed, malice, selfishness, cruelty? These are not singularly Kenyan conditions. I am curious to hear your reasoning which supposedly upends all the experience of humanity, the thinking of greats like the Romans, the American founding fathers who contributed to the kind of democracy we have today, flawed as it is.
Wakanyugi
#8 Posted : Thursday, October 19, 2017 1:42:19 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
tycho wrote:
Back in 2013 I got feverish at the idea of Uhuru and Raila each insisting that they should be president. Given what happened in 2007, and the trends set by earlier elections it's possible to tell where we are going as a nations-state now and into the future.

We've been cooking a war, and the meal is about to be served.

Right now, the government has lost legitimacy no matter what it chooses to do. Jubilee is only fooling itself if it thinks the repeat elections will legitimize it.

The opposition too has lost legitimacy and the capacity to unite the state. The opposition cannot win this war.

So my friends, stop supporting the two factions. They lead nowhere. Let's build something new.



Tycho, placing all blame on two sides may feel good but it is a copout. The fact is we are all complicit in this pissing contest. Our tribal kings can only project their bloated egos because we give them the energy to do so.

The only silver lining I see here is the chance to test our fidelity to our borrowed constitution (or not). But then it took a devastating civil war for America to become a 'nation of laws'. Is that the path we are choosing?
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
newfarer
#9 Posted : Thursday, October 19, 2017 5:39:55 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2010
Posts: 3,504
Location: Uganda
if thing turn south I will blame three people for thinking they are too important for this country ,raila Uhuru and chiloba

raila should have allowed the fresh elections to proceed, Uhuru should have taken measures to unite the country rather that yapping supreme court this ,bulldozing election law changes.he should know that for you to lead people, they must accept to be led,chiloba should have resigned out of conscience even if not guilty.

God save Kenya, things are not looking good ,hoping we will get a political solution as a military/civil war option is difficult to come out from.imagine that kaplot you have built with sweat and tears coming down after attacks ,the rapes ,killings ,maiming !!!remember the fighter in civil war have really nothing to lose
punda amecheka
murchr
#10 Posted : Thursday, October 19, 2017 6:23:44 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Chiloba did nothing wrong. We have to stop giving into babas demands.Chebukati calls himself the ref. In a match the opposing sides always have to bicker , but the ref blows the whistle and calls the shots. The law is on his side. He has done everything to carry out a sane election.

On another note, those who don't vote like @alma should stop inciting the public and turn their tvs to cartoon network. Those who are listening to Miguna and applauding him, I hope you have an address in Ontario. If not , I hope atakufungulia nyumba. In short, when things turn south you will either be fleeing to Somalia or UG. Magufuli people dispise us and South Sudanese will turn you into a meal.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
alma1
#11 Posted : Thursday, October 19, 2017 3:10:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/19/2015
Posts: 2,871
Location: hapo
murchr wrote:
Chiloba did nothing wrong. We have to stop giving into babas demands.Chebukati calls himself the ref. In a match the opposing sides always have to bicker , but the ref blows the whistle and calls the shots. The law is on his side. He has done everything to carry out a sane election.

On another note, those who don't vote like @alma should stop inciting the public and turn their tvs to cartoon network. Those who are listening to Miguna and applauding him, I hope you have an address in Ontario. If not , I hope atakufungulia nyumba. In short, when things turn south you will either be fleeing to Somalia or UG. Magufuli people dispise us and South Sudanese will turn you into a meal.


Inciting is a very strong word. Very strong. Ama I'm on a list of social media inciters somewhere?

I'm educating. That the problem in Kenya lies with the breed of politicians we have. Supporting them only leads to chaos.

You don't need lab analysis to prove that. You can see how the behaviour of the two principles is leading us to bankruptcy.

Bankrupt in terms of money, behavior and even ideas.

Why you would wake up to vote for either is something for psychology books.
Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?

sanity
#12 Posted : Thursday, October 19, 2017 3:16:55 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/24/2011
Posts: 407
Location: Nairobi,Kenya
alma1 wrote:
murchr wrote:
Chiloba did nothing wrong. We have to stop giving into babas demands.Chebukati calls himself the ref. In a match the opposing sides always have to bicker , but the ref blows the whistle and calls the shots. The law is on his side. He has done everything to carry out a sane election.

On another note, those who don't vote like @alma should stop inciting the public and turn their tvs to cartoon network. Those who are listening to Miguna and applauding him, I hope you have an address in Ontario. If not , I hope atakufungulia nyumba. In short, when things turn south you will either be fleeing to Somalia or UG. Magufuli people dispise us and South Sudanese will turn you into a meal.


Inciting is a very strong word. Very strong. Ama I'm on a list of social media inciters somewhere?

I'm educating. That the problem in Kenya lies with the breed of politicians we have. Supporting them only leads to chaos.

You don't need lab analysis to prove that. You can see how the behaviour of the two principles is leading us to bankruptcy.

Bankrupt in terms of money, behavior and even ideas.

Why you would wake up to vote for either is something for psychology books.


Unfortunately,the politicians are selected from other Kenyans.Society begets what it deserves.
Hope is not a strategy
Impunity
#13 Posted : Thursday, October 19, 2017 3:50:48 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
tycho wrote:
Back in 2013 I got feverish at the idea of Uhuru and Raila each insisting that they should be president. Given what happened in 2007, and the trends set by earlier elections it's possible to tell where we are going as a nations-state now and into the future.

We've been cooking a war, and the meal is about to be served.

Right now, the government has lost legitimacy no matter what it chooses to do. Jubilee is only fooling itself if it thinks the repeat elections will legitimize it.

The opposition too has lost legitimacy and the capacity to unite the state. The opposition cannot win this war.

So my friends, stop supporting the two factions. They lead nowhere. Let's build something new.


Wah.
so u can also write like a normal being?
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

tycho
#14 Posted : Thursday, October 19, 2017 4:05:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Thank you @quicksand.

Let me begin by saying that I believe that it is valid and even a point worth considering when we have inclinations or beliefs about the needed existential experiences without having outlines of what's better. It's like being in a maze. You don't know how the 'center' looks like. But the suggestions of the pathways incline us to seek that very center.

If you may consider the above analogy for a moment you realize that even how a group of children would go about finding their way to the center, without knowing how the center looks like. Last time I and my friends tried, we got soda and bread, and a free ride back home.

But I'd like to matters a bit to the extreme and venture even the outline of the center, hahaha, because I've been to the center. My political philosophy is of the order of Christ, Plato, and going back to the Kemetian ideology, and to the order of Melchizedek.

And it is this tree that allows me to say that in very simple terms, we have to engage with our politicians and ourselves each as a 'Mwenyenchi' and not as 'Mwananchi'. And also, as 'Mwenyetaifa'.

We can know a system that is working against us as humans who are first and foremost subject to the laws of nature, by how the laws of nature apply to most of us. For most of us we don't enjoy our lives. Yet it's prerogative that if the laws of nature apply, then, it must be possible to enjoy a living. Yet for most of us, we struggle to make a living, and in fact even that life we struggle to make, doesn't materialize. If, @quicksand, there's a problem of evil, then this is its restatement.

The problem of evil, is the problem of political action. So, can we have bodies politic, that can overcome the problem of evil as stated? Yes! Of course we can!

Hannah Arendt, reminds us that 'Revolution' is going back to the beginning. That is, to our first understandings, knowledge, of our begining.

My order, posits that all are instances of the knowledge of the tree of life. The ankh. That is the solution to evil. Yet this tree is at the begining. Revolution is partaking of the tree of life.

All this implies reforming ourselves, our nation states, our world. Even our education, because the matter of the tree of life is a matter of priesthood. And many of us are averse to priesthood. But, it doesn't need a theist, to realize that the primal family, and the primal state, must ipso facto have a priesthood. Even an atheistic one.

So, we are looking at a theocratic democracy with a priesthood of the order of Melchizedek.

tycho
#15 Posted : Thursday, October 19, 2017 5:05:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Let's consider the following 3 questions that I believe to be most important for us, at the moment.

1. Would an election on the 26th be in agreement to the spirit and purpose of the constitution, given the status quo?

2. Can there be an extension of the election date?

3. How would the supreme court go about extending the election date, and how would they determine the extension period?

I wish to be corrected, but I believe the courts would invoke article 159 (2)d and (2)e and then what else? The ruling on the request for clarification by the IEBC is an indicator of what else the courts can do.

So in the end, the Supreme court will be defeated, because it has no way of addressing the matter that's at the root of our crisis.

Not even an intervention of the world powers and international community will be able to resolve the problem paused.

We are at a time when we have to work hard for the best case scenario which would restore soverignty and assure freedom for most, if not all of us.

Yet how can we approach the best case scenario?
tycho
#16 Posted : Thursday, October 19, 2017 5:12:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Back in 2013 I got feverish at the idea of Uhuru and Raila each insisting that they should be president. Given what happened in 2007, and the trends set by earlier elections it's possible to tell where we are going as a nations-state now and into the future.

We've been cooking a war, and the meal is about to be served.

Right now, the government has lost legitimacy no matter what it chooses to do. Jubilee is only fooling itself if it thinks the repeat elections will legitimize it.

The opposition too has lost legitimacy and the capacity to unite the state. The opposition cannot win this war.

So my friends, stop supporting the two factions. They lead nowhere. Let's build something new.



Tycho, placing all blame on two sides may feel good but it is a copout. The fact is we are all complicit in this pissing contest. Our tribal kings can only project their bloated egos because we give them the energy to do so.

The only silver lining I see here is the chance to test our fidelity to our borrowed constitution (or not). But then it took a devastating civil war for America to become a 'nation of laws'. Is that the path we are choosing?


You're right about placing the blame on sides. In fact, placing blame is a technique of exclusivity. What we need is to have a perspective of inclusivity and placing of responsibility and not blame.

We can choose anarchy. But not war. Both sides will lack an effective ideology of war that can unite the nation state. Not unless the international community has interest in our anarchy then no power can fund a war.

We'll start killing ourselves and perpetuating the status quo despite our wishes. We'll lock up ourselves in hell.
newfarer
#17 Posted : Friday, October 20, 2017 8:24:23 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2010
Posts: 3,504
Location: Uganda
newfarer wrote:
if thing turn south I will blame three people for thinking they are too important for this country ,raila Uhuru and chiloba

raila should have allowed the fresh elections to proceed, Uhuru should have taken measures to unite the country rather that yapping supreme court this ,bulldozing election law changes.he should know that for you to lead people, they must accept to be led,chiloba should have resigned out of conscience even if not guilty.

God save Kenya, things are not looking good ,hoping we will get a political solution as a military/civil war option is difficult to come out from.imagine that kaplot you have built with sweat and tears coming down after attacks ,the rapes ,killings ,maiming !!!remember the fighter in civil war have really nothing to lose

one positive development

http://mobile.nation.co....7754-4eqookz/index.html

raila should now accept the repeat Uhuru should not sign the election bill.we move forward
punda amecheka
2012
#18 Posted : Friday, October 20, 2017 8:56:48 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 6,592
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
Back in 2013 I got feverish at the idea of Uhuru and Raila each insisting that they should be president. Given what happened in 2007, and the trends set by earlier elections it's possible to tell where we are going as a nations-state now and into the future.

We've been cooking a war, and the meal is about to be served.

Right now, the government has lost legitimacy no matter what it chooses to do. Jubilee is only fooling itself if it thinks the repeat elections will legitimize it.

The opposition too has lost legitimacy and the capacity to unite the state. The opposition cannot win this war.

So my friends, stop supporting the two factions. They lead nowhere. Let's build something new.


You need to understand Kenyan politics. Our politics is not and has never been about legitimacy. From Jomo's government to Uhuru's or even Raila's and eventually Ruto's or Kalonzo's, Kenyans have never wanted a saint government.
As for war, what war are you talking about? Who will participate in the war? There can only be one war, between the rich and the poor and the rich control the country including the weapons of war and the soldiers and the poor know it. There can be killings but there can never be war in my opinion. So, who would lead the war?
One thing we forget is the politicians are professional, this is what they do day and night, the citizens only matter to them during the voting season that's when they come and divide us to their benefit then life goes on after. We the citizens are only a means to a selfish end. I dare tell you that the person to be most afraid of is not Raila or Uhuru but WSR. Just listen to the way he talks and you'll wonder if it's about Uhuru's reelection or 2022. I can bet you that even Raila has no beef with Uhuru and is more worried about the son of Samoi.

BBI will solve it
:)
wukan
#19 Posted : Friday, October 20, 2017 9:51:07 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,590
newfarer wrote:
if thing turn south I will blame three people for thinking they are too important for this country ,raila Uhuru and chiloba

raila should have allowed the fresh elections to proceed, Uhuru should have taken measures to unite the country rather that yapping supreme court this ,bulldozing election law changes.he should know that for you to lead people, they must accept to be led,chiloba should have resigned out of conscience even if not guilty.

God save Kenya, things are not looking good ,hoping we will get a political solution as a military/civil war option is difficult to come out from.imagine that kaplot you have built with sweat and tears coming down after attacks ,the rapes ,killings ,maiming !!!remember the fighter in civil war have really nothing to lose


Things will not turn south you can take that to the bank. Behavioral economics will tell you that humans don't go to war in depressed economic times. Conflicts usually come after an economic boom like in 2007. KE is also in a credit crunch situation even baba has no money to campaign he is doing sleepover kwa sponsor. 2008 Credit crunch in the US made them re-think Iraq and Afghan wars.

If you go to kibera or mathare folks are more worried about water shortage and unga prices. It's only keyboard warriors who are blowing things out of proportion. Things will settle soon and baba will get a Kazi kwa vijana type project to recoup his campaign losses at your expense as a taxpayer. When you see politicians harden their position just know a deal is about to struck.
tycho
#20 Posted : Friday, October 20, 2017 4:52:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@2012, there's no politics without legitimacy. Politics happens when humans come together in action, and that action is justified and endorsed by a common will.

Legitimacy has it's own continuum of characteristics and some instances may not be so saintly, like the Kenya you understand.

Now this unsaintly legitimacy you're talking about is crumbling. I believe I've done my due dilligence in understanding Kenyan politics. And, while your professionals, play their games, disorder is increasing because the laws of nature surpass positive laws and actions on earth.

Right now, there's a constitution that may soon be radically altered without informed, and willing consent given with reasonable expectation of universal harmony and effectiveness. That is, after these coming elections, Kenya risks going the path of a completely failed state.

About war: War is the application of force on another with the intent of subduing the other's will and to attain certain selfish objectives.

A war, can start itself. And it can run itself to exhaustion. Just like a fire. Right now the fire is raging, and our leaders are fanning it. Not knowing that it's a wild fire out of their hands. Something beyond professionalism.

2022 is very close. And it's also far. The professionals can be talking about it, but they also need to know what's happening now.
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