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Warfare on the "cheap"
Rank: Member Joined: 1/30/2016 Posts: 332 Location: Rift Valley
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shadowinvestor wrote:I am not a procurement guy but our single biggest military purchase are some old crop duster planes, While I have no reservation to their effectiveness and modus operandi, they look nifty enough for low bombing engagement and as recent wars have shown, airpower is 80% of a war. My issues lie in cost/benefit analysis, Lets analyse the deal- Planes-12+2 costs, say 80 million USD Arms-not sure, hope its the bulk of the purchase but another-80million USD, there is still next year to stockpile and tender Training and support-10 Million USD hapa ni 170, Variables might lie in the arms or if the planes might need extra retrofitting like night vision, expanded radar...
Why I would prefer better fighter jets to add to our arsenal is that neighbour to the North called Ethiopia who can literally obliterate us na ndege tu, we need to talk to Russia for some Mig-27 or thereabouts, Cost kedo 15 million USD, order for 20, delivered over 5 years. Russian Jets are cheap to run, literally can be operate with minimal repairs.
If you want to talk about jets, let us use our neighbour Uganda as a case study. In 2012 M7 purchased six Su-30MKK multi-role fighters at a total cost of 750 million USD. In terms of ability this jet is superior to the US F-16. On the other hand, M7's biggest military threat is Joseph Kony. You don't need to be an army man to see that such an advanced aircraft is simply a waste of resources. KDF's agricultural implements are a modern design and intended to fight a threat like Al Shabab. An enemy that hides in the bush with an AK-47 and a Land Cruiser technical. For a change your government is being cost effective and you still find reason to complain??
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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chemirocha wrote:shadowinvestor wrote:I am not a procurement guy but our single biggest military purchase are some old crop duster planes, While I have no reservation to their effectiveness and modus operandi, they look nifty enough for low bombing engagement and as recent wars have shown, airpower is 80% of a war. My issues lie in cost/benefit analysis, Lets analyse the deal- Planes-12+2 costs, say 80 million USD Arms-not sure, hope its the bulk of the purchase but another-80million USD, there is still next year to stockpile and tender Training and support-10 Million USD hapa ni 170, Variables might lie in the arms or if the planes might need extra retrofitting like night vision, expanded radar...
Why I would prefer better fighter jets to add to our arsenal is that neighbour to the North called Ethiopia who can literally obliterate us na ndege tu, we need to talk to Russia for some Mig-27 or thereabouts, Cost kedo 15 million USD, order for 20, delivered over 5 years. Russian Jets are cheap to run, literally can be operate with minimal repairs.
If you want to talk about jets, let us use our neighbour Uganda as a case study. In 2012 M7 purchased six Su-30MKK multi-role fighters at a total cost of 750 million USD. In terms of ability this jet is superior to the US F-16. On the other hand, M7's biggest military threat is Joseph Kony. You don't need to be an army man to see that such an advanced aircraft is simply a waste of resources. KDF's agricultural implements are a modern design and intended to fight a threat like Al Shabab. An enemy that hides in the bush with an AK-47 and a Land Cruiser technical. For a change your government is being cost effective and you still find reason to complain?? Pardon my never ending mischievousness but I could not help but notice your comment and have a chuckle when I remember a similar situation. Obama spent $8.8MILLION sending B2 stealth bombers halfway around the world to kill 80 ISIS fighters in last military order as president. Pentagon officials say B-2 bombers carried out air strikes against ISIS camps.Anyway, let the discussion continue.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/13/2012 Posts: 139
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http://www.nation.co.ke/...5984-xrje3hz/index.html
"A US congressman is seeking to halt Kenya's pending $418 million weapons purchase from a US contractor centred on 12 converted agricultural aircraft intended to bolster the Kenya Defence Forces's campaign against Al-Shabaab. “My office has received credible allegations of faulty contracting practices, fraud and unfair treatment surrounding this sale,” Congressman Ted Budd said on Tuesday." "In urging his colleagues to block and investigate the deal, the North Carolina Republican said a company in his home state would sell Kenya planes better suited for their envisioned purpose at less than half the quoted price." "A military monitoring news organisation based in London reported on Thursday that Kenya may have confused the AT-802L made by L-3 in Texas with an AT-802 aircraft manufactured by IOMAX in North Carolina." You cannot make this stuff up
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/27/2015 Posts: 130
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Cant we make our own planes?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/8/2008 Posts: 1,575
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TSi wrote:Cant we make our own planes? We agreed even toothpicks are too complex for us to make I care!
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Rank: Member Joined: 9/3/2015 Posts: 118 Location: Nairobi
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shadowinvestor wrote:http://www.nation.co.ke/news/kenyas-Sh43-billion-US-arms-deal-at-risk/1056-3815984-xrje3hz/index.html
"A US congressman is seeking to halt Kenya's pending $418 million weapons purchase from a US contractor centred on 12 converted agricultural aircraft intended to bolster the Kenya Defence Forces's campaign against Al-Shabaab.
“My office has received credible allegations of faulty contracting practices, fraud and unfair treatment surrounding this sale,” Congressman Ted Budd said on Tuesday." "In urging his colleagues to block and investigate the deal, the North Carolina Republican said a company in his home state would sell Kenya planes better suited for their envisioned purpose at less than half the quoted price." "A military monitoring news organisation based in London reported on Thursday that Kenya may have confused the AT-802L made by L-3 in Texas with an AT-802 aircraft manufactured by IOMAX in North Carolina."
You cannot make this stuff up The article above has two pointers that I have seen: 1. The IOMAX complex is in his state, the purchase would make voters believe in his ability to provide them with jobs. 2. The IOMAX system he is praising is being replaced with NEW systems from L3 communications. All in all, it's a cheaper platform to operate,and similar to the A10 warthog operated for close air support (CAS) for ground troops. Compared to the jets (F5/15/16/18/22/35, Mig 29/33, Su 27/30/33/35) whose running costs per hour run at no less than $1000/hr depending on type of aircraft,this little birdie can do the same at no more than the $1000 per hour, flying out to a zone on surveillance, loiter 6-9hrs over an area, deploy weapons when needed, land on a poor runway near required area for refuelling and re-arming, then take off. to put this into perspective, consider that the F5s and all other jets you say should be purchased would come from either Laikipia or Lamu or Mombasa to, say Afmadow, drop their gifts, then head back home after an hour tops to refuel.In the meantime, the hyena eaters have re-grouped and relaunched attacks. with this bird, KAF-SF would just para-drop or make a hot landing, secure a good area from where this bird can land if required for re-arming and refuelling, once done they take off or join the battle ongoing, and with good eyes in the sky to guide them.Add onto that the bird's ability to loiter in the air fofr quite long durations, they can be deployed in theatre full time without ever coming back home since field maintenance would be like that of a motorbike. Costs: For this, I take guys sometime back to the purchase of MV Jasiri. Complaints were made left, right and centre that it's an oceanography vessel converted into a warship. Now, the navy has a blueprint of the level of readiness and equipment that it requires, i.e a blue navy (can go past Exclusive Economic Zone,EEZ). For this to be done, oceanography needs to be conducted to map routes which ship can access. You see this, and immediately you get that submarines would be part of the project. Getting guys from outside to do this would be a natural reaction, but for commanders to oversee the same would make more sense as they can gauge how good some zones would be for attack and defence of a naval base. Fast forward the F5s from Jordan, those were purchased with the distinct advantage that the pilots wouldnt need training to fly the newer airframes (Most Airforces around the world buy planes and put them in storage, as cover for attrition losses in war, so most of the airframes are rarely used or have flown very few hours). Another advantage was that they could add a weapons and fire control suite from a country like Israel and make the bird an all weather night and day bird, capable of fining smart, guided and dumb bombs, keeping the airforce operational. Another consideration was the threat level from our immediate neighbours. Do we expect to be at war with Uganda anytime soon? How about ethiopia? When Tanzanians overthrew Idi amin, they had mechanised battalions defending the route to Kampala from Tanzania, while the tanzanians went with infantry on foot, meaning they could go round the mechanised units without them knowing. Sorry for digression, but for the costs, the commanders had to insist on systems that can support weapons including NATO, russian and chinese munitions, since NATO aka American munitions are damn expensive compared to what russians, chinese have to offer. Pilots would also tell you that transition from one plane to the other would require training to get you up to standard on your new ride. type of systems deployed. They may also have asked for auxiliary internal tanks. This argument can be compared exhaustively when we get the specs sheet. My 1 cts.
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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shadowinvestor wrote:http://www.nation.co.ke/news/kenyas-Sh43-billion-US-arms-deal-at-risk/1056-3815984-xrje3hz/index.html
"A US congressman is seeking to halt Kenya's pending $418 million weapons purchase from a US contractor centred on 12 converted agricultural aircraft intended to bolster the Kenya Defence Forces's campaign against Al-Shabaab.
“My office has received credible allegations of faulty contracting practices, fraud and unfair treatment surrounding this sale,” Congressman Ted Budd said on Tuesday." "In urging his colleagues to block and investigate the deal, the North Carolina Republican said a company in his home state would sell Kenya planes better suited for their envisioned purpose at less than half the quoted price." "A military monitoring news organisation based in London reported on Thursday that Kenya may have confused the AT-802L made by L-3 in Texas with an AT-802 aircraft manufactured by IOMAX in North Carolina."
You cannot make this stuff up This story is not ending soonQuote:The five congressmen said in their letter to Ambassador Githae that L3 “has no experience converting agricultural aircraft into intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft with precision-strike capability. Quote:One aspect of his process that concerns us,” the US House members added, “is whether any misrepresentations about capabilities have been made.”
A different company with proven experience could provide Kenya with field-tested aircraft and related elements at a far lower price, the congressmen said.
“Spending sh43 billion of Kenyan national funds on aircraft that could be acquired for over sh20 billion less from a company that has years of past performance and an existing production line is not an optimal allocation of scarce defence dollars,” Ambassador Githae was told. If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/7/2007 Posts: 11,935 Location: Nairobi
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Bad deal. This should be abandoned ASAP! Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/14/2014 Posts: 332 Location: Nairobi
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Big up Shadowinvestor, you saw something that most of us chose to ignore. Hongera.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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Pilferage everywhere. You turn left - bleeding, turn right siphoning! Wapi salama jameni! Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/1/2009 Posts: 2,436
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Ala kumbe even the Egyptians were nearly mislead by this Air Tractor and L3 entities: IOMAX has held high-level talks with the Egyptian Ministry of Defence (MoD) to safeguard an expected sale of armed turboprop aircraft from being poached by its Air Tractor and L3 Technologies competitors, a company official told Jane's.
The North Carolina-based IOMAX has for some months been negotiating with the Egyptian MoD to support and upgrade 12 AT-802s that have been gifted by the United Arab Emirates (UAE), at the same time as looking to sell the country 10 of its latest Archangel Block 2 Border Patrol Aircraft (BPA). However, emergency talks have been held after IOMAX discovered that L3 was trying to use the US government to have Egypt buy the AT-802L that it has developed with Air Tractor instead.
"We have found that Air Tractor and L3 have been misrepresenting their product in Egypt, but luckily we found this out before it had gone through the [Defense Security Cooperation Agency] DSCA, the State Department and the [US Air Force] USAF [approval process]. We have now corrected that narrative, and are in the final stages of discussions with the Egyptians for the sale of the Archangel," the IOMAX official told Jane's.
According to the official, Air Tractor and L3 had been looking to sell their AT-802L into Egypt on the basis that it was already fielded and in service with the UAE, whereas in fact this is the IOMAX AT-802 and its successor Archangel. "To say the Egyptians were dismayed when they realised Air Tractor and L3 had never built or much less fielded an armed AT-802, and in addition were not the ones who build the current Archangel, would not be an overstatement," he said.
Although IOMAX told Jane's that it had corrected the narrative with the Egyptians, it noted that this was not before the country's MoD had submitted a sole source letter of recommendation (LOR) request to the US government for the AT-802L based on its misunderstanding of the situation.
Seems someone in the military-industrial complex is keen to push contracts to L3, a bigger contractor than Iomax. No wonder Congressman Budd is not keen coz it will not be going to his constituency to create jobs and business (not coz he cares about nyinyi wenyenchi) Logically, Kenya should be going for the Archangels, the successor to the air tractor AT-802L. IMO and fearing our diabolical appetite for public funds, I am eager to see the cost of the weapons payload the planes as a component of the overall cost eg smart guided munitions like the Hellfire missile whose costs $70,000 (KShs 7m) are included in this package: how many were planned to be bought? 100? 500? Not even considering the rockets and bombs for the cannon gun. If this is a rip off then top heads must roll even those in KDF procurement. Lets see what Ndii will say kesho in his analysis.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/1/2009 Posts: 2,436
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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Intelligentsia wrote:http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/why-trump-questions-us-africa-policy-not-taken-lightly/440808-3826762-5brwwsz/index.html Intelligentsia=NdiiIntelligentsia wrote:
Lets see what Ndii will say kesho in his analysis.
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/1/2009 Posts: 2,436
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Kumbe it was a clean deal after all...although maybe expensive http://www.janes.com/art...longsword-sale-to-kenya
The US Government Accountability Office (GAO) has found nothing untoward in the proposed sale of 12 armed L3 Technologies-Air Tractor AT-802L Longsword intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) and light attack turboprops to Kenya....
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/8/2008 Posts: 1,575
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Intelligentsia wrote:Kumbe it was a clean deal after all...although maybe expensive http://www.janes.com/art...longsword-sale-to-kenya
The US Government Accountability Office (GAO) has found nothing untoward in the proposed sale of 12 armed L3 Technologies-Air Tractor AT-802L Longsword intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) and light attack turboprops to Kenya.... They must have been bought I care!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/26/2009 Posts: 1,793
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Intelligentsia wrote:Kumbe it was a clean deal after all...although maybe expensive http://www.janes.com/art...longsword-sale-to-kenya
The US Government Accountability Office (GAO) has found nothing untoward in the proposed sale of 12 armed L3 Technologies-Air Tractor AT-802L Longsword intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) and light attack turboprops to Kenya.... the sensational media will never report this
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