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BREAKING NEWS......Kadhis Courts are illegal
AmHere
#121 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:52:55 AM
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Joined: 7/7/2009
Posts: 93
Declaring a constitutional provision unconstitutional is quite rare. What has precedence internationally is declaring a constitutional amendment unconstitutional. Courts in India and Ireland have walked a similar though not identical path.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Structure

The case by the Indian Court was that certain parts of the constitution were beyond amendment by parliament. Is that probably similar to the position held by the bill of rights in our proposed constitution? Our case might be different because we are not talking about a constitutional amendment per se.

The Kenyan judges decision is indeed a reason for healthy debate. My question would be can a Constitutional Court sitting after the enactment of the new constitution declare any section of the same constitution that appears to contradict the bill of rights or fundamental freedoms (basic structure?) null and void?

The following is an interesting read if you have the time

https://webspace.utexas....utional_constit%232C.pdf
theman192000
#122 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:02:58 AM
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Joined: 7/11/2008
Posts: 401
@ nanfor1, some more food for thought.

According to lawyer Paul Mwangi, who was interviewed on Citizen TV last night, the basis of the court case whose ruling we are debating, was based on the draft of the 2005 proposed constitution and the defendant was the ECK. The draft was defeated in the 2005 referendum and since then ECK has ceased to exist. Therefore the case was overtaken by events.

Secondly, the 10 mile coastal strip was not part of Kenya before independence but was ruled as a protectorate since 1895 by the British on behalf of the Sultan of Zanzibar. The agreement at independence which was executed and signed by the Sultan of Zanzibar and the PM at the time Jomo Snr. was that the strip will be part of Kenya as long as these Kadhi courts are allowed to continue.

Now if they have been declared illegal, does the strip revert back to Zanzibar? Note that on this particular issue, it matters not where the Kadhi courts are captured, but they need to be somewhere.
masukuma
#123 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:21:53 AM
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Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
@there was no Kenya before 1963. These treaties we were having with Arabs , Egyptians and others over our country should be re-looked at. We are not free men in our own land. we cannot make our own laws, we cannot use our own water.
We are rubber-stamping the notion that we are lesser beings by having foreign interests dictate the agenda of our land.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
wanjirus
#124 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:23:19 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/4/2009
Posts: 37
As a sober ordinary Kenyan,I know for a fact:
1. A judicial precedent cannot supersede the constitution,
2. When the prosposed constitution comes in to force the judges will be vetted afresh, the AG and CJ will be in office just for the transition period which may be one year or less, and we all know public offices are too sweet to leave at will.
3.There is a very vigorous force to try and derail the process and I am the one to benefit the reason every beneficiary of the current constitution is against this.
4. I have read the constitution and made up my mind any thing else is like hurling insults at me in Gujarat which I can't understand,further more I have been reading and making decision on my own for the past more than 20 yrs and no major mistakes.

FundamentAli
#125 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:35:48 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/4/2008
Posts: 1,289
Location: Nairobi
Am looking at the times the post were posted. Wazua must be operating +4 GMT. That besides

The Judges erred in my opinion. What that judgement means is that we have a completely secular state. Remove the word God from the National anthem, prayers during national days, opening of parliament etc. It also means that it is not legal to go and state before a magistrate about your faith. Bible and Qurans should not be used to take oaths. I do not know which civil process is free in the Kenyan courts. If you file for divorce you pay filing charges as a christian and they ask you your religion. The hearing of a divorce between two christians takes place in a court supported by the tax payers. If you die and you have no will, the State adminsters your estate. Is this not paid for by taxpayers. Why not give others the opportunity to have similar cases but profess a different faith or their have agreed to different kinds of contract.

The ruling also nullifies the marriage act as I understand it. If Muslim marriages are recognised by law, what mechanism do you have for resolving disputes arising therefrom?

That ruling can also be used against christians. Do not celebrate. It is what is happening in the western world. If I were one of the petitioners, I would mourn. It is the case of one monkey laughing about the back of another monkey
Sigiriri
#126 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:49:55 AM
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Joined: 6/26/2008
Posts: 319
I know one thing now - strengthened by this ruling:
1. I have never opposed muslims having their kadhi's establishments, but I am opposed to that being a protected clause in the universal law of the land where we are all mixed religion.

Let's pause as advised and ammend this proposed draft to give strength to the Kadhi courts on the basis of parliamentary Act. This way, we will all be happy and surely the Christians wont oppose the Act that will be passed in parliament.

The constitution is for all and must not segregate unless to cater for special interest groups - not religions!!

By August, the tide will have turned. @surealligator, I think you may have a point - these politicians are devious beyond mention!
theman192000
#127 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:09:28 AM
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Joined: 7/11/2008
Posts: 401
masukuma wrote:
@there was no Kenya before 1963.


Kindly advise what the British colony was called then...
masukuma
#128 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:23:11 AM
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Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
@theman192000, the republic did not exist. we were not self ruling.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
KulaRaha
#129 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:25:54 AM
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Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,514
British East Africa and included Uganda
Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
aemathenge
#130 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:26:41 AM
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Joined: 10/18/2008
Posts: 3,434
Location: Kerugoya
I take it that "We" are now "Self Ruling".
masukuma
#131 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:41:20 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
I know i have posted this somewhere else but i like the way it sounds.
MZUNGU/MWARABU AENDE ULAYA/UNGUJA MWAFRIKA APATE UHURU
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
nanfor1
#132 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:46:54 AM
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Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
masukuma, you may just be as .....as you type. I hope you know what you are saying.

Which Mwarabu are you talking about? Or does your warped mind believe that every muslim is an arab? what kind of church is this you go to? I would like to know.

If you think its a very good one, please tell us which one it is. It will be good to name it as the church where intolerance is preached.

I am still looking for that verse in the bible that preaches that intolerance will take you to heaven.
Hata wakizima taa
Wa_ithaka
#133 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:50:33 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
"Smiley" has just filed an appeal which means the katiba continues moving.

In anycase, the ruling was against the earlier drafts so I don't see what bearing it has against the proposed katiba
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
sky5
#134 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 12:02:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/7/2010
Posts: 282
Location: Nairobi
I find it interesting for the High Court to declare a section of the constitution unconstitutional. Nevertheless, the issues raised in the judgement call for debate.
theman192000
#135 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 12:14:00 PM
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Joined: 7/11/2008
Posts: 401
masukuma wrote:
@theman192000, the republic did not exist. we were not self ruling.


Not really. Jomo was PM and could sign binding agreements.
AmHere
#136 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 12:33:48 PM
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Joined: 7/7/2009
Posts: 93
So that conversation is from a point of knowledge and not rumor you can download the ruling here.

http://www.nation.co.ke/...lp2z/-/Kadhi+Ruling.pdf

The origin of the Kadhi courts debate is the move to anchor the Kadhis courts from an act of parliament as it is now into the constitution itself. Muslims leaders fear that an act can be overturned (something that has never happened) and Church leaders fear sharia law taking over the country (something that has never happened).

I think having a generic provision for religious courts in the constitution and allowing for the details to be ironed out through an act of parliament for every religion that wants that to happen could have left everyone happy. But that is just in retrospect. That said, it is up to Kenyans to eventually decide on what it is they are comfortable with.
masukuma
#137 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 12:34:39 PM
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Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
@theman192000, before 1963....Jomo was PM in 1963...actually some 6 days from now it will be 48 years.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
theman192000
#138 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:04:35 PM
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Joined: 7/11/2008
Posts: 401
@ masukuma, I think as Kenyans we need to take responsibility for our actions and not pass the buck. Jomo signed the document that put the Kadhi courts where they are presently. Not sure how the 6 days or 48 years features.
theman192000
#139 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:19:02 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/11/2008
Posts: 401
KulaRaha wrote:
British East Africa and included Uganda


@ KulaRaha, See below

The Colony and Protectorate of Kenya was part of the British Empire in Africa. It was established when the former East Africa Protectorate was transformed into a British crown colony in 1920. Technically, the "Colony of Kenya" referred to the the interior lands, while a ten-mile coastal strip (ostensibly on lease from the Sultan of Zanzibar) was the "Protectorate of Kenya" but the two were controlled as a single administrative unit.
The colony came to an end in 1963 when independence was agreed with the British. After independence the former colony became known as Kenya.
ibsi
#140 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:53:55 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 5/7/2010
Posts: 38
Location: Nairobi
This all attests why this constitution making is flawed. Islam is supposedly a peaceful religion but statistics of the acts of atrocities comitted by its members are tatally the opposite. This doesnt mean that Xtians have never waged serious crimes but the difference is that muslims do it in the name of God whereas Xtians or other non-xtians do it on their own.
Trust in God and endure patiently.
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