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2017 PEV Orchestration
harrydre
#91 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:23:23 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
masukuma wrote:
Bigchick wrote:

@ Masukuma I beg to differ.

I request you to isolate this issue from our everyday lifes. Here we are on this failure to concede,the attendant protests and police reaction to the same.Nobody is being snobish or arrogant about the win.After all other than feeling good about the win as an individual what have I gained so far?

I am employed and also have some side hussles and my interactions with my luo colleagues and business associates has not changed.Betty Achieng my hairdresser did my hair yesturday as we have always done in the last many years and she was expectant.She went into labour at night and delivered a bouncing baby girl and guess what I was among the first to see her in hospital today with Uji and soup.Our relationship cannot be changed by the politics of the day.

We shook hands the day Uhuru was declared and let it be.What has remained which I believe will also die out are jokes about Canaan which are neither here nor there.



concession is someone's choice - he does not have to concede! sio lazima... it does not change who the president is. The problem here is WHAT DO YOU DO IN THAT STEAD! We all agree that police violence is unwarranted but the more you are seen to justify the action of the police the more it is seen that the police are doing it in your name. the claim that "wakikuyu wanatuua" are rife!! Have you ever wondered why people turn against the very people that they associate with them everyday when some of these conflicts arise? Why did Hutus kill Tutsis? Husbands KILLED WIVES! the task of nation building is hard and it starts not by being seen to be sharing stuff or eating together or giving each other stuff. it's has to be seen as a task we do for others... it's maisha bila MADHARAU!!


Had NASWA won...wacha tu!l leave it there. You haven't seen any arrogance yet.
i.am.back!!!!
Angelica _ann
#92 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:28:24 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,939
harrydre wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Bigchick wrote:

@ Masukuma I beg to differ.

I request you to isolate this issue from our everyday lifes. Here we are on this failure to concede,the attendant protests and police reaction to the same.Nobody is being snobish or arrogant about the win.After all other than feeling good about the win as an individual what have I gained so far?

I am employed and also have some side hussles and my interactions with my luo colleagues and business associates has not changed.Betty Achieng my hairdresser did my hair yesturday as we have always done in the last many years and she was expectant.She went into labour at night and delivered a bouncing baby girl and guess what I was among the first to see her in hospital today with Uji and soup.Our relationship cannot be changed by the politics of the day.

We shook hands the day Uhuru was declared and let it be.What has remained which I believe will also die out are jokes about Canaan which are neither here nor there.



concession is someone's choice - he does not have to concede! sio lazima... it does not change who the president is. The problem here is WHAT DO YOU DO IN THAT STEAD! We all agree that police violence is unwarranted but the more you are seen to justify the action of the police the more it is seen that the police are doing it in your name. the claim that "wakikuyu wanatuua" are rife!! Have you ever wondered why people turn against the very people that they associate with them everyday when some of these conflicts arise? Why did Hutus kill Tutsis? Husbands KILLED WIVES! the task of nation building is hard and it starts not by being seen to be sharing stuff or eating together or giving each other stuff. it's has to be seen as a task we do for others... it's maisha bila MADHARAU!!


Had NASWA won...wacha tu!l leave it there. You haven't seen any arrogance yet.


I agree!!! d'oh!
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
thuks
#93 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:30:21 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/8/2008
Posts: 1,575
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it'us a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,


And this would be so irregardless of whether party Y knew of the facts or not?

Especially so, mixture of the pain of loss and gullibility/ self blame is not good at all.
I care!
masukuma
#94 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:39:39 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Angelica _ann wrote:
harrydre wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Bigchick wrote:

@ Masukuma I beg to differ.

I request you to isolate this issue from our everyday lifes. Here we are on this failure to concede,the attendant protests and police reaction to the same.Nobody is being snobish or arrogant about the win.After all other than feeling good about the win as an individual what have I gained so far?

I am employed and also have some side hussles and my interactions with my luo colleagues and business associates has not changed.Betty Achieng my hairdresser did my hair yesturday as we have always done in the last many years and she was expectant.She went into labour at night and delivered a bouncing baby girl and guess what I was among the first to see her in hospital today with Uji and soup.Our relationship cannot be changed by the politics of the day.

We shook hands the day Uhuru was declared and let it be.What has remained which I believe will also die out are jokes about Canaan which are neither here nor there.



concession is someone's choice - he does not have to concede! sio lazima... it does not change who the president is. The problem here is WHAT DO YOU DO IN THAT STEAD! We all agree that police violence is unwarranted but the more you are seen to justify the action of the police the more it is seen that the police are doing it in your name. the claim that "wakikuyu wanatuua" are rife!! Have you ever wondered why people turn against the very people that they associate with them everyday when some of these conflicts arise? Why did Hutus kill Tutsis? Husbands KILLED WIVES! the task of nation building is hard and it starts not by being seen to be sharing stuff or eating together or giving each other stuff. it's has to be seen as a task we do for others... it's maisha bila MADHARAU!!


Had NASWA won...wacha tu!l leave it there. You haven't seen any arrogance yet.


I agree!!! d'oh!

of course!! no one is saying it would be otherwise... SIRKAL!! of course... but refer to my Chris Rock Snippet....
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
AlphDoti
#95 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:42:49 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
tycho wrote:
If PEV is the violence that emerges after an election, then we can study the kinds of violence that have emerged along our history.

Right now, what forms of violence have taken place? What have been the expressions of violence involved and who have been the actors?

It's good that @hardwood has posted those pictures, because we can interrogate the conversation that has taken place between the participants of violence before, during, and after the elections.

Before elections the state says, 'Because some people disputes election results and express displeasure by looting, killing, etc. We'll bring armed force to deal with you.'

The NASA people lie low. But they also know from precedence that elections can be stolen. So this presentation of force by the state can also be used to steal elections. Especially, if those who're in control of the state in fact have an interest in retaining power and are part of the elections.

People go to vote in peace. But many know that things are likely to explode.

After elections, one party, who has been feeding his people with truths before, says; the elections have been stolen.

Now, let us, for a moment apply a reasonableness test: Is it reasonable for those who believe they are victims of theft to show their displeasure and even participate in acts that would suggest that they are not cowed by the armed forces used by the state?

Or rather, would you resist a robber if you knew you had the means and what you were protecting was worth dying for?

The state, owes duty of care to all citizens; and given it's scope and structure and processes, it can foresee scenarios. It can have intelligent plans of care and execution of relations, and hence if the state indeed had a clean heart then it would do their best to apply fairness and protection to all.

For example, the state could define its terms of engagement and effect confidence building measures such as inviting the opposition leadership in national security plans. So that the opposition doesn't have to act on rumors...

But the state made no such initiatives. Why?

And if you were Raila, feeling and even knowing that there were elaborate plans afoot to ensure that he lost, would you concede that you lost fairly?

Kudos! These are the kind of things I want to read from you. Well put!
tycho
#96 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:44:09 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it'us a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,


And this would be so irregardless of whether party Y knew of the facts or not?

Especially so, mixture of the pain of loss and gullibility/ self blame is not good at all.


So, if we can have an instance where one can have a general feeling of having been stolen from and lack proof of it; how can we/should we approach cries from victims of similar instances?

Or rather, who would bear the burden of proof of theft?
AlphDoti
#97 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:45:34 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Angelica _ann wrote:
harrydre wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Bigchick wrote:

@ Masukuma I beg to differ.

I request you to isolate this issue from our everyday lifes. Here we are on this failure to concede,the attendant protests and police reaction to the same.Nobody is being snobish or arrogant about the win.After all other than feeling good about the win as an individual what have I gained so far?

I am employed and also have some side hussles and my interactions with my luo colleagues and business associates has not changed.Betty Achieng my hairdresser did my hair yesturday as we have always done in the last many years and she was expectant.She went into labour at night and delivered a bouncing baby girl and guess what I was among the first to see her in hospital today with Uji and soup.Our relationship cannot be changed by the politics of the day.

We shook hands the day Uhuru was declared and let it be.What has remained which I believe will also die out are jokes about Canaan which are neither here nor there.



concession is someone's choice - he does not have to concede! sio lazima... it does not change who the president is. The problem here is WHAT DO YOU DO IN THAT STEAD! We all agree that police violence is unwarranted but the more you are seen to justify the action of the police the more it is seen that the police are doing it in your name. the claim that "wakikuyu wanatuua" are rife!! Have you ever wondered why people turn against the very people that they associate with them everyday when some of these conflicts arise? Why did Hutus kill Tutsis? Husbands KILLED WIVES! the task of nation building is hard and it starts not by being seen to be sharing stuff or eating together or giving each other stuff. it's has to be seen as a task we do for others... it's maisha bila MADHARAU!!

Had NASWA won...wacha tu!l leave it there. You haven't seen any arrogance yet.

I agree!!! d'oh!

@angel, there is something you need to know, I don't know how to share it with you... Think
Iganamagana
#98 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 3:30:28 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/27/2009
Posts: 1,437
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it'us a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,


And this would be so irregardless of whether party Y knew of the facts or not?

Especially so, mixture of the pain of loss and gullibility/ self blame is not good at all.


So, if we can have an instance where one can have a general feeling of having been stolen from and lack proof of it; how can we/should we approach cries from victims of similar instances?

Or rather, who would bear the burden of proof of theft?


Sad
thuks
#99 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 4:30:19 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/8/2008
Posts: 1,575
Iganamagana wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it'us a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,


And this would be so irregardless of whether party Y knew of the facts or not?

Especially so, mixture of the pain of loss and gullibility/ self blame is not good at all.


So, if we can have an instance where one can have a general feeling of having been stolen from and lack proof of it; how can we/should we approach cries from victims of similar instances?

Or rather, who would bear the burden of proof of theft?


Sad

Though not a lawyer but guess that whoever makes the claims bears the burden. Under some circumstances, the proof of theft may be so concealed as to be missed out. However, weighting any shreds of evidence may reveal trends or point to the truth. What does the victim have as proof of ownership?
I care!
tycho
#100 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 7:38:52 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
thuks wrote:
Iganamagana wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it'us a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,


And this would be so irregardless of whether party Y knew of the facts or not?

Especially so, mixture of the pain of loss and gullibility/ self blame is not good at all.


So, if we can have an instance where one can have a general feeling of having been stolen from and lack proof of it; how can we/should we approach cries from victims of similar instances?

Or rather, who would bear the burden of proof of theft?


Sad

Though not a lawyer but guess that whoever makes the claims bears the burden. Under some circumstances, the proof of theft may be so concealed as to be missed out. However, weighting any shreds of evidence may reveal trends or point to the truth. What does the victim have as proof of ownership?


Maybe such an instance ought to be treated like any other criminal offense and as is the norm the state leads in the investigation and prosecution.

So in this case, I'd expect the Directorate of prosecution, and the National Cohesion and Integration Commission to investigate and inform relevant parties and the Supreme court or any other relevant and constitutional body of their findings. Given the participation and goodwill of NASA the country would find closure to this matter.

But so far, it is clear that:

1. It may be reasonable for NASA and Raila to make claims of theft even without proof

2. It may be reasonable for the aggrieved to refuse to have recourse to the courts

3. It's probable that the public may be misled as to the credibility of the elections

4. Election observers may fail to offer competent insight into the elections and may fail to note certain anomalies regarding it

5. The state apparatus has shown no incentive for fair and just conclusion of the matters arising before, during and after the elections

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