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2017 PEV Orchestration
Amores
#81 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 12:57:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/25/2011
Posts: 2,103
Location: Nrb
masukuma wrote:
Bigchick wrote:

@ Masukuma I beg to differ.

I request you to isolate this issue from our everyday lifes. Here we are on this failure to concede,the attendant protests and police reaction to the same.Nobody is being snobish or arrogant about the win.After all other than feeling good about the win as an individual what have I gained so far?

I am employed and also have some side hussles and my interactions with my luo colleagues and business associates has not changed.Betty Achieng my hairdresser did my hair yesturday as we have always done in the last many years and she was expectant.She went into labour at night and delivered a bouncing baby girl and guess what I was among the first to see her in hospital today with Uji and soup.Our relationship cannot be changed by the politics of the day.

We shook hands the day Uhuru was declared and let it be.What has remained which I believe will also die out are jokes about Canaan which are neither here nor there.



concession is someone's choice - he does not have to concede! sio lazima... it does not change who the president is. The problem here is WHAT DO YOU DO IN THAT STEAD! We all agree that police violence is unwarranted but the more you are seen to justify the action of the police the more it is seen that the police are doing it in your name. the claim that "wakikuyu wanatuua" are rife!! Have you ever wondered why people turn against the very people that they associate with them everyday when some of these conflicts arise? Why did Hutus kill Tutsis? Husbands KILLED WIVES! the task of nation building is hard and it starts not by being seen to be sharing stuff or eating together or giving each other stuff. it's has to be seen as a task we do for others... it's maisha bila MADHARAU!!


I disagree with everything @ Masukuma has said.It is based on a fallacy in thinking. Your argument that people want/ wanted to rid themselves of Uthamaki, is not true, were it true, your flawed "prophesy why he should/ will lose" would have come to pass - it didn't, so please stop advancing it here, the rest of Kenya does not agree.. Instead, the son of Jomo surpassed expectations, and got many votes from many part of this country, he painted it red - literally.

The second point is the police brutality is wrong, but that is different from what @Masukuma is talking about. How those who won handle that victory is different from what the police force is doing. There are ordinary citizens like you and I who have the right to celebrate their win( dare I say whichever way they choose?), then there is the action of the police force which is not a celebration of victory. Why are you equating police force brutality with celebration of victory?
Finally, the onus is not any Kikuyu or Kalenjin about uniting / fostering unity in Kenya, it is on every Kenyan!! Jeez, what is thinking that two tribes have it in them to heal this nation? I think continuity to castigate Jubilee as a Kikuyu/ Kalenjin affair is part of why NASA does not know what hit them

And oh, yes, conceding would go a long way to heal that tension. Do you think it would have been great for NASA to just come out and congratulate UK and say , lets move on as one nation than all these unfounded theatrics, which serve to harden his supporters because his win was "stolen?" So please stop giving them a pass by saying it is a choice, and then telling other people that they have a responsibility.

Ps: I am not a Kikuyu


I am happy
masukuma
#82 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 12:58:18 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,822
Location: Nairobi
hardwood wrote:


Eti wakikuyu wanatuua? What kind of nonsense is this? Even heard someone claiming that the police sent to quell riots have dreadlocks. Total ujinga. You are the same people trying to paint jubilee as okuyo govt. FYI ohuru has got 54% of the votes whereas okuyos are only 22% of population.


Boss... you are arguing against perceptions with facts... hapo ndio unaanguka mtihani!! missing the point COMPLETELY!! you are not empathetic and you think just because you know for a fact what is right everyone has the same state of mind as you!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#83 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 1:24:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
If PEV is the violence that emerges after an election, then we can study the kinds of violence that have emerged along our history.

Right now, what forms of violence have taken place? What have been the expressions of violence involved and who have been the actors?

It's good that @hardwood has posted those pictures, because we can interrogate the conversation that has taken place between the participants of violence before, during, and after the elections.

Before elections the state says, 'Because some people disputes election results and express displeasure by looting, killing, etc. We'll bring armed force to deal with you.'

The NASA people lie low. But they also know from precedence that elections can be stolen. So this presentation of force by the state can also be used to steal elections. Especially, if those who're in control of the state in fact have an interest in retaining power and are part of the elections.

People go to vote in peace. But many know that things are likely to explode.

After elections, one party, who has been feeding his people with truths before, says; the elections have been stolen.

Now, let us, for a moment apply a reasonableness test: Is it reasonable for those who believe they are victims of theft to show their displeasure and even participate in acts that would suggest that they are not cowed by the armed forces used by the state?

Or rather, would you resist a robber if you knew you had the means and what you were protecting was worth dying for?

The state, owes duty of care to all citizens; and given it's scope and structure and processes, it can foresee scenarios. It can have intelligent plans of care and execution of relations, and hence if the state indeed had a clean heart then it would do their best to apply fairness and protection to all.

For example, the state could define its terms of engagement and effect confidence building measures such as inviting the opposition leadership in national security plans. So that the opposition doesn't have to act on rumors...

But the state made no such initiatives. Why?

And if you were Raila, feeling and even knowing that there were elaborate plans afoot to ensure that he lost, would you concede that you lost fairly?
FRM2011
#84 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 1:32:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/5/2010
Posts: 2,459

I think this will remain my all-time best thread for a long time. I have read Hannah Arendt's "banality of evil" several times and some of the strongest critiques to the theory.

And now, right here standing on the sidelines I watch as veterans and elders take a position to defend evil. For a moment I am dumbfounded, no I can't be reading this right. I look at the handle and the post once again. I am completely sold on Arendt's theory.

The crime justifying evil this time is Rao refusing to concede. It has absolutely no impact on the legitimacy of the declared winner. At no time have protesters posed any threat to either the police or other citizens. Most are being flushed from their houses and they are guilty because they belong to the guilty tribe.

Stephanie Moraa. She was shot on her home's balcony in Mathare. At first the cops said the bullet came from thugs. Then it changed that there was a shoot-out between cops and thugs. And an 8-year old girl ignored the shoot-out and continued playing. The assumption here is that Kenyans are dumb enough to buy that explanation.

"The trouble with Nigeria", Chinua Achebe once wrote, "is that we excuse the inexcusable and accept the unacceptable". How apt for our situation !

I have a fantastically active imagination. So what would happen if, God forbid, Baba's supporters in Ruaraka attacked Jubilee supporters in neighboring Roysambu ? Those justifying evil now would instantly cross the rubicon and we all know what would follow. If I am scared of fellow wazuans, what about the the guy in Kiandutu slums Thika ?

At this point, I start sweating on realizing how close we are to Armageddon. The nazi and interhamwe mindset is there. We have to keep praying that a trigger never happens.
tycho
#85 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 1:36:05 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it's a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?
sitaki.kujulikana
#86 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 1:38:21 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/25/2012
Posts: 1,826
All this is just a reflection of the world we are living in, where we tell our kids that everybody is a winner and go ahead and dish participation certificates to all, we make those who succeed feel as though they have done something bad.

we watch our kids get obese and pat them on the back when they fail to run a few steps and tell them they are better than that other kid who completed the whole race, and the sad thing this is the narrative we are entertaining.
thuks
#87 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 1:54:28 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/8/2008
Posts: 1,575
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it's a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,
I care!
tycho
#88 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 1:58:03 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it's a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,


And this would be so irregardless of whether party Y knew of the facts or not?
hardwood
#89 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:07:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
All this is just a reflection of the world we are living in, where we tell our kids that everybody is a winner and go ahead and dish participation certificates to all, we make those who succeed feel as though they have done something bad.

we watch our kids get obese and pat them on the back when they fail to run a few steps and tell them they are better than that other kid who completed the whole race, and the sad thing this is the narrative we are entertaining.


Tell them...
Fyatu
#90 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:14:59 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,820
Location: Nakuru
Why are dumb,rogue and irresponsible journalists from KTN,NTV and Citizen trying to push the narrative that "half" the populace did not vote for Uhuruto 2022 yet even class one kids know that the dynamic duo won by 54% + 1? I have just watched one KTN journalist interviewing the secretary of Mombasa council of elders and the dumb young man went on and on about half the country voting against jubilee. When did 44% become the mean in normally distributed data? Don't they teach rudimentary arithmetic/stats in class five anymore?
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
harrydre
#91 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:23:23 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
masukuma wrote:
Bigchick wrote:

@ Masukuma I beg to differ.

I request you to isolate this issue from our everyday lifes. Here we are on this failure to concede,the attendant protests and police reaction to the same.Nobody is being snobish or arrogant about the win.After all other than feeling good about the win as an individual what have I gained so far?

I am employed and also have some side hussles and my interactions with my luo colleagues and business associates has not changed.Betty Achieng my hairdresser did my hair yesturday as we have always done in the last many years and she was expectant.She went into labour at night and delivered a bouncing baby girl and guess what I was among the first to see her in hospital today with Uji and soup.Our relationship cannot be changed by the politics of the day.

We shook hands the day Uhuru was declared and let it be.What has remained which I believe will also die out are jokes about Canaan which are neither here nor there.



concession is someone's choice - he does not have to concede! sio lazima... it does not change who the president is. The problem here is WHAT DO YOU DO IN THAT STEAD! We all agree that police violence is unwarranted but the more you are seen to justify the action of the police the more it is seen that the police are doing it in your name. the claim that "wakikuyu wanatuua" are rife!! Have you ever wondered why people turn against the very people that they associate with them everyday when some of these conflicts arise? Why did Hutus kill Tutsis? Husbands KILLED WIVES! the task of nation building is hard and it starts not by being seen to be sharing stuff or eating together or giving each other stuff. it's has to be seen as a task we do for others... it's maisha bila MADHARAU!!


Had NASWA won...wacha tu!l leave it there. You haven't seen any arrogance yet.
i.am.back!!!!
Angelica _ann
#92 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:28:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,929
harrydre wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Bigchick wrote:

@ Masukuma I beg to differ.

I request you to isolate this issue from our everyday lifes. Here we are on this failure to concede,the attendant protests and police reaction to the same.Nobody is being snobish or arrogant about the win.After all other than feeling good about the win as an individual what have I gained so far?

I am employed and also have some side hussles and my interactions with my luo colleagues and business associates has not changed.Betty Achieng my hairdresser did my hair yesturday as we have always done in the last many years and she was expectant.She went into labour at night and delivered a bouncing baby girl and guess what I was among the first to see her in hospital today with Uji and soup.Our relationship cannot be changed by the politics of the day.

We shook hands the day Uhuru was declared and let it be.What has remained which I believe will also die out are jokes about Canaan which are neither here nor there.



concession is someone's choice - he does not have to concede! sio lazima... it does not change who the president is. The problem here is WHAT DO YOU DO IN THAT STEAD! We all agree that police violence is unwarranted but the more you are seen to justify the action of the police the more it is seen that the police are doing it in your name. the claim that "wakikuyu wanatuua" are rife!! Have you ever wondered why people turn against the very people that they associate with them everyday when some of these conflicts arise? Why did Hutus kill Tutsis? Husbands KILLED WIVES! the task of nation building is hard and it starts not by being seen to be sharing stuff or eating together or giving each other stuff. it's has to be seen as a task we do for others... it's maisha bila MADHARAU!!


Had NASWA won...wacha tu!l leave it there. You haven't seen any arrogance yet.


I agree!!! d'oh!
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
thuks
#93 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:30:21 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/8/2008
Posts: 1,575
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it'us a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,


And this would be so irregardless of whether party Y knew of the facts or not?

Especially so, mixture of the pain of loss and gullibility/ self blame is not good at all.
I care!
masukuma
#94 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:39:39 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,822
Location: Nairobi
Angelica _ann wrote:
harrydre wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Bigchick wrote:

@ Masukuma I beg to differ.

I request you to isolate this issue from our everyday lifes. Here we are on this failure to concede,the attendant protests and police reaction to the same.Nobody is being snobish or arrogant about the win.After all other than feeling good about the win as an individual what have I gained so far?

I am employed and also have some side hussles and my interactions with my luo colleagues and business associates has not changed.Betty Achieng my hairdresser did my hair yesturday as we have always done in the last many years and she was expectant.She went into labour at night and delivered a bouncing baby girl and guess what I was among the first to see her in hospital today with Uji and soup.Our relationship cannot be changed by the politics of the day.

We shook hands the day Uhuru was declared and let it be.What has remained which I believe will also die out are jokes about Canaan which are neither here nor there.



concession is someone's choice - he does not have to concede! sio lazima... it does not change who the president is. The problem here is WHAT DO YOU DO IN THAT STEAD! We all agree that police violence is unwarranted but the more you are seen to justify the action of the police the more it is seen that the police are doing it in your name. the claim that "wakikuyu wanatuua" are rife!! Have you ever wondered why people turn against the very people that they associate with them everyday when some of these conflicts arise? Why did Hutus kill Tutsis? Husbands KILLED WIVES! the task of nation building is hard and it starts not by being seen to be sharing stuff or eating together or giving each other stuff. it's has to be seen as a task we do for others... it's maisha bila MADHARAU!!


Had NASWA won...wacha tu!l leave it there. You haven't seen any arrogance yet.


I agree!!! d'oh!

of course!! no one is saying it would be otherwise... SIRKAL!! of course... but refer to my Chris Rock Snippet....
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
AlphDoti
#95 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:42:49 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
tycho wrote:
If PEV is the violence that emerges after an election, then we can study the kinds of violence that have emerged along our history.

Right now, what forms of violence have taken place? What have been the expressions of violence involved and who have been the actors?

It's good that @hardwood has posted those pictures, because we can interrogate the conversation that has taken place between the participants of violence before, during, and after the elections.

Before elections the state says, 'Because some people disputes election results and express displeasure by looting, killing, etc. We'll bring armed force to deal with you.'

The NASA people lie low. But they also know from precedence that elections can be stolen. So this presentation of force by the state can also be used to steal elections. Especially, if those who're in control of the state in fact have an interest in retaining power and are part of the elections.

People go to vote in peace. But many know that things are likely to explode.

After elections, one party, who has been feeding his people with truths before, says; the elections have been stolen.

Now, let us, for a moment apply a reasonableness test: Is it reasonable for those who believe they are victims of theft to show their displeasure and even participate in acts that would suggest that they are not cowed by the armed forces used by the state?

Or rather, would you resist a robber if you knew you had the means and what you were protecting was worth dying for?

The state, owes duty of care to all citizens; and given it's scope and structure and processes, it can foresee scenarios. It can have intelligent plans of care and execution of relations, and hence if the state indeed had a clean heart then it would do their best to apply fairness and protection to all.

For example, the state could define its terms of engagement and effect confidence building measures such as inviting the opposition leadership in national security plans. So that the opposition doesn't have to act on rumors...

But the state made no such initiatives. Why?

And if you were Raila, feeling and even knowing that there were elaborate plans afoot to ensure that he lost, would you concede that you lost fairly?

Kudos! These are the kind of things I want to read from you. Well put!
tycho
#96 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:44:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it'us a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,


And this would be so irregardless of whether party Y knew of the facts or not?

Especially so, mixture of the pain of loss and gullibility/ self blame is not good at all.


So, if we can have an instance where one can have a general feeling of having been stolen from and lack proof of it; how can we/should we approach cries from victims of similar instances?

Or rather, who would bear the burden of proof of theft?
AlphDoti
#97 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:45:34 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Angelica _ann wrote:
harrydre wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Bigchick wrote:

@ Masukuma I beg to differ.

I request you to isolate this issue from our everyday lifes. Here we are on this failure to concede,the attendant protests and police reaction to the same.Nobody is being snobish or arrogant about the win.After all other than feeling good about the win as an individual what have I gained so far?

I am employed and also have some side hussles and my interactions with my luo colleagues and business associates has not changed.Betty Achieng my hairdresser did my hair yesturday as we have always done in the last many years and she was expectant.She went into labour at night and delivered a bouncing baby girl and guess what I was among the first to see her in hospital today with Uji and soup.Our relationship cannot be changed by the politics of the day.

We shook hands the day Uhuru was declared and let it be.What has remained which I believe will also die out are jokes about Canaan which are neither here nor there.



concession is someone's choice - he does not have to concede! sio lazima... it does not change who the president is. The problem here is WHAT DO YOU DO IN THAT STEAD! We all agree that police violence is unwarranted but the more you are seen to justify the action of the police the more it is seen that the police are doing it in your name. the claim that "wakikuyu wanatuua" are rife!! Have you ever wondered why people turn against the very people that they associate with them everyday when some of these conflicts arise? Why did Hutus kill Tutsis? Husbands KILLED WIVES! the task of nation building is hard and it starts not by being seen to be sharing stuff or eating together or giving each other stuff. it's has to be seen as a task we do for others... it's maisha bila MADHARAU!!

Had NASWA won...wacha tu!l leave it there. You haven't seen any arrogance yet.

I agree!!! d'oh!

@angel, there is something you need to know, I don't know how to share it with you... Think
Iganamagana
#98 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 3:30:28 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 3/27/2009
Posts: 1,437
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it'us a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,


And this would be so irregardless of whether party Y knew of the facts or not?

Especially so, mixture of the pain of loss and gullibility/ self blame is not good at all.


So, if we can have an instance where one can have a general feeling of having been stolen from and lack proof of it; how can we/should we approach cries from victims of similar instances?

Or rather, who would bear the burden of proof of theft?


Sad
thuks
#99 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 4:30:19 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/8/2008
Posts: 1,575
Iganamagana wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it'us a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,


And this would be so irregardless of whether party Y knew of the facts or not?

Especially so, mixture of the pain of loss and gullibility/ self blame is not good at all.


So, if we can have an instance where one can have a general feeling of having been stolen from and lack proof of it; how can we/should we approach cries from victims of similar instances?

Or rather, who would bear the burden of proof of theft?


Sad

Though not a lawyer but guess that whoever makes the claims bears the burden. Under some circumstances, the proof of theft may be so concealed as to be missed out. However, weighting any shreds of evidence may reveal trends or point to the truth. What does the victim have as proof of ownership?
I care!
tycho
#100 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 7:38:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
thuks wrote:
Iganamagana wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
thuks wrote:
tycho wrote:
Allow me for a moment to describe an imaginary situation that may not be so far fetched.

Party X employs strategists to help it win against party Y, which is deemed to be the strongest opposition. The strategists decide to use asymmetrical warfare and attack your biggest weakness, finances.

The plan is to infiltrate party Y and finance it. While doing so, corrupt processes, and warp information. The Russians call it "reflexive control". The plan succeeds. And party Y follows everything according to plan and even believes it will win.

The results come in and it'us a different story. There's shock.

Would such a scenario constitute of a stolen election?

Yes,


And this would be so irregardless of whether party Y knew of the facts or not?

Especially so, mixture of the pain of loss and gullibility/ self blame is not good at all.


So, if we can have an instance where one can have a general feeling of having been stolen from and lack proof of it; how can we/should we approach cries from victims of similar instances?

Or rather, who would bear the burden of proof of theft?


Sad

Though not a lawyer but guess that whoever makes the claims bears the burden. Under some circumstances, the proof of theft may be so concealed as to be missed out. However, weighting any shreds of evidence may reveal trends or point to the truth. What does the victim have as proof of ownership?


Maybe such an instance ought to be treated like any other criminal offense and as is the norm the state leads in the investigation and prosecution.

So in this case, I'd expect the Directorate of prosecution, and the National Cohesion and Integration Commission to investigate and inform relevant parties and the Supreme court or any other relevant and constitutional body of their findings. Given the participation and goodwill of NASA the country would find closure to this matter.

But so far, it is clear that:

1. It may be reasonable for NASA and Raila to make claims of theft even without proof

2. It may be reasonable for the aggrieved to refuse to have recourse to the courts

3. It's probable that the public may be misled as to the credibility of the elections

4. Election observers may fail to offer competent insight into the elections and may fail to note certain anomalies regarding it

5. The state apparatus has shown no incentive for fair and just conclusion of the matters arising before, during and after the elections

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