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2017 PEV Orchestration
tycho
#41 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 2:33:39 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Mtu Biz wrote:
tycho wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:
tycho wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:
tycho wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:

If we can all step back from reacting to each other's comments maybe some light can be shed for both the 'winners' and 'losers'.

Is it fair or just to ask.. on what is the assertion that 'the election was stolen' based on?

Can the basis of that assertion be interrogated?

Yes or No?



Yes. It can be interrogated.

When there's a reference to 'the court of public opinion' then there's an invitation to interrogation.

By the way, any concerned citizen(s) can find a way via the courts.


If Yes,

Is it just or fair to ask that the originator of the assertion provide this basis ?


It may be fair and just to ask the originator. And in fact, if the originator wishes to engender enlightened public opinion then he/they should engage their 'bloggers' for example.

But there's also a possibility that the originator isn't in a position to respond as we wish. Do we go for his jugular?



The response to this question need not be complex.

The election was stolen because....

1.
2.
3.

Is it just or fair to interrogate 1,2 and 3 as provided by the originator of this assertion ?




The responses to these questions are never simple if we're serious about our lives.

Yes. It's just and fair to interrogate the responses as provided by the originator.



Is the forum provided in our current laws, that offers a public platform for this interrogation of the basis of these assertions and offers determinations based on verifiable information provided, a fair and just forum ?

i.e Courts?


Yes. In fact, my opinion is that if NASA doesn't go to court then someone else can.

On the other hand, the issue of dispute resolution goes further than the courts. As I said earlier, we're operating in an environment in which even the courts and their procedures are suspect.

For example, when there were forceful movements of the Maasai in the early 1900s some of the Maasai leaders went to court but their efforts were frustrated!

So we can't take the courts as the final arbiters of all disputes unless the disputes themselves are interrogated well and carefully enough and it's seen that the courts are the best way.

Notice that even the former CJ advocated for a change of dispute resolution in Kenya at least for the sake of the efficiency and effectiveness of the judiciary.
Wakanyugi
#42 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 2:36:13 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Nandwa wrote:
Mubebelezano uishe.
Let RAO be told the naked truth.
The people who are dying as a result of the ill advised chaotic protests are squarely due to him - RAO.

Why is it taboo to tell RAO the hard truth!


And what is this truth? That Raila lost 'fairly'? How much do we know about this?

Consider this other 'truth'. The courts are the best suited to determine the truth.

But what happens in instances where 'truth' threatens the status quo and the imminent change is deemed too costly, even by some of those who are to determine the truth?

I'd like to use the example of the ICC cases against the now president elect and his deputy. Considering the lobbying and jockeying that was evident, the ICC had to consider the threat to its existence and it's probable that this was an influence in how the court decided to deal with the cases.

The big question now is how we can negotiate truth in a pluralist society, and also how and whether this truth can be enforced or effected.

We lose it when we define the problem simply as, 'Raila'.



Sorry Tycho but you and I part ways here.

A true leader is known when things are going bad, not just when sycophants are massaging his ego.

If Raila can convince 6 million Kenyans to vote for him, he can convince a few misled youth not to die for him, as many of them are deluded into thinking. So far he has done no such thing. Granted he will lose face in doing so, but are the lives of our young people less important than his ego?

Our country will get now where if we can not hold those we apoint to lead us to account.


From what you're saying I can imagine that at least one assumption you have is that 'All leaders are superior to whom they lead and that they are immune from influences of those they lead'.

Otherwise, if our assumption were the leaders are subject to influence and therefore can be scripted we'd be looking at this matter differently.

Pause for a moment and imagine: what really happens if Raila doesn't say anything but there's inherent injustice in our system and the only way out is an overhaul or revolution? So far that's the implicit message.

For me it's no longer about pressuring Raila to concede. As you've seen it goes deep into question of sanity, being. It's about making sense of day to day life experience.


'All leaders are superior to whom they lead and that they are immune from influences of those they lead'.

They don't have to be superior to the led, but they have to lead. And that means not just enjoying the perks of power but stepping up to the plate when things go south, sacrificing their ego, beliefs and comforts even, for the good of those who trusted them with leadership.

"Otherwise, if our assumption were the leaders are subject to influence and therefore can be scripted we'd be looking at this matter differently."

So Raila is no longer accountable for his actions, seeing as he has been scripted? Then why did he want to lead Kenya in the first place?

Look Tycho, scripted or not, Raila has the power to save lives today, at no more cost to him than loss of face. It seems he won't do it, either because to him those lives are expendable or some other warped reason.

And you want us to excuse such? Please




You know even the young people protesting believe your statement to be true? The only other addition, being that it's worth dying for the cause.


Quote:



Yes I know. Many of the youth rioting believe it is worth dying for a cause and Raila epitomizes that cause. But is it? Would you Tycho be willing to die for Raila or Uhuru?

The fact is is most of these youth are deluded children, who don't even understand that they are mere pawns in a naked game for power, to be forgotten even before their corpses are cold.

Anyone who plays with peoples lives in this manner is not a leader in my book and should be told so in no uncertain terms.

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Lolest!
#43 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 2:38:15 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Njung'e wrote:
Use of live ammunition on citizens is wrong and unacceptable even at times when the said protesters are quite unreasonable. I think the police have other civil and reasonable ways of handling the protesters. How about locking down the affected slums and man the roads to and from with roadblocks? Allow only peaceful residents in and out. The rest of the town dwellers will go about their business as usual. If the slum dwellers decide to destroy and burn down their infrastructure like they have done with Olympic Primary School, allow them to.

I agree with everything else but you can't allow people to destroy property!
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
Euge
#44 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 2:42:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 8/4/2008
Posts: 2,849
Location: Rupi
If we citizens choose to use our brains, the question of incitement would not even arise. We are fools. Sadly so.
Lord, thank you!
tycho
#45 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 2:44:27 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Nandwa wrote:
Mubebelezano uishe.
Let RAO be told the naked truth.
The people who are dying as a result of the ill advised chaotic protests are squarely due to him - RAO.

Why is it taboo to tell RAO the hard truth!


And what is this truth? That Raila lost 'fairly'? How much do we know about this?

Consider this other 'truth'. The courts are the best suited to determine the truth.

But what happens in instances where 'truth' threatens the status quo and the imminent change is deemed too costly, even by some of those who are to determine the truth?

I'd like to use the example of the ICC cases against the now president elect and his deputy. Considering the lobbying and jockeying that was evident, the ICC had to consider the threat to its existence and it's probable that this was an influence in how the court decided to deal with the cases.

The big question now is how we can negotiate truth in a pluralist society, and also how and whether this truth can be enforced or effected.

We lose it when we define the problem simply as, 'Raila'.



Sorry Tycho but you and I part ways here.

A true leader is known when things are going bad, not just when sycophants are massaging his ego.

If Raila can convince 6 million Kenyans to vote for him, he can convince a few misled youth not to die for him, as many of them are deluded into thinking. So far he has done no such thing. Granted he will lose face in doing so, but are the lives of our young people less important than his ego?

Our country will get now where if we can not hold those we apoint to lead us to account.


From what you're saying I can imagine that at least one assumption you have is that 'All leaders are superior to whom they lead and that they are immune from influences of those they lead'.

Otherwise, if our assumption were the leaders are subject to influence and therefore can be scripted we'd be looking at this matter differently.

Pause for a moment and imagine: what really happens if Raila doesn't say anything but there's inherent injustice in our system and the only way out is an overhaul or revolution? So far that's the implicit message.

For me it's no longer about pressuring Raila to concede. As you've seen it goes deep into question of sanity, being. It's about making sense of day to day life experience.


'All leaders are superior to whom they lead and that they are immune from influences of those they lead'.

They don't have to be superior to the led, but they have to lead. And that means not just enjoying the perks of power but stepping up to the plate when things go south, sacrificing their ego, beliefs and comforts even, for the good of those who trusted them with leadership.

"Otherwise, if our assumption were the leaders are subject to influence and therefore can be scripted we'd be looking at this matter differently."

So Raila is no longer accountable for his actions, seeing as he has been scripted? Then why did he want to lead Kenya in the first place?

Look Tycho, scripted or not, Raila has the power to save lives today, at no more cost to him than loss of face. It seems he won't do it, either because to him those lives are expendable or some other warped reason.

And you want us to excuse such? Please




You know even the young people protesting believe your statement to be true? The only other addition, being that it's worth dying for the cause.


Quote:



Yes I know. Many of the youth rioting believe it is worth dying for a cause and Raila epitomizes that cause. But is it? Would you Tycho be willing to die for Raila or Uhuru?

The fact is is most of these youth are deluded children, who don't even understand that they are mere pawns in a naked game for power, to be forgotten even before their corpses are cold.

Anyone who plays with peoples lives in this manner is not a leader in my book and should be told so in no uncertain terms.



And which is the lesser evil; accepting that they are accursed people who can never hope for a better life? Or even a life at all?

We can have what you may call ideal conditions of peace and have lives being lost in a kind of accursed 'zombiehood'.

If one were to tell the elected leadership in no uncertain terms that they are playing with millions of lives, would they and their supporters be willing to listen?
tycho
#46 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 2:47:22 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Euge wrote:
If we citizens choose to use our brains, the question of incitement would not even arise. We are fools. Sadly so.


I suspect that there's no proof of incitement here.

Some people use their brains wrongly and join the ranks of fools.
Obi 1 Kanobi
#47 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 2:56:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
Mtu Biz wrote:

If we can all step back from reacting to each other's comments maybe some light can be shed for both the 'winners' and 'losers'.

Is it fair or just to ask.. on what is the assertion that 'the election was stolen' based on?

Can the basis of that assertion be interrogated?

Yes or No?


To answer your question Baba lost coz?

1. There is no convincing evidence NASA has provided to challenge the results as given by IEBC
2. IEBC seems to have remained very neutral and nothing in their actions suggests otherwise, if anything they have been very accommodating of NASA querries
3. Other than the presidential loss, NASA seems to have lost in all other elective positions in more areas of the country
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
tycho
#48 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 3:32:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
I doubt if anyone is orchestrating PEV in 2017.

In fact, maybe we need to redefine what we're experiencing now as a nation.

If someone has experienced a loss, even deservedly, how do we meet their needs, not, how do we convince them of reality.

What is the extent of the loss or feeling of loss?

Someone shared about the grieving process; is it automatic that the process will flow, and what time would it take?

Could a significant portion of our population be the 'depression cycles'?

B.Timer
#49 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 3:49:42 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
Orchestration is almost certain.
The following link seems to point to part of the chain.



http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Ma...056870-cjb3es/index.html
Dunia ni msongamano..
tycho
#50 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 4:05:55 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
B.Timer wrote:
Orchestration is almost certain.
The following link seems to point to part of the chain.



http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Ma...056870-cjb3es/index.html


@B Timer: When one works with the assumption that violence is being created or orchestrated then it's easy to expect conflict to be inter-tribal 'Rwanda' kind of thing.

And when a population as Kenya's is involved we can't discount false and alarmist ideas springing up.

Case in point is how witnesses alter their accounts to fit popular imagination as presented in the media.

We must be aware of these factors when judging what's happening.
Wakanyugi
#51 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 4:28:04 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635

Quote:

[/quote]

Yes I know. Many of the youth rioting believe it is worth dying for a cause and Raila epitomizes that cause. But is it? Would you Tycho be willing to die for Raila or Uhuru?

The fact is is most of these youth are deluded children, who don't even understand that they are mere pawns in a naked game for power, to be forgotten even before their corpses are cold.

Anyone who plays with peoples lives in this manner is not a leader in my book and should be told so in no uncertain terms.

[/quote]

And which is the lesser evil; accepting that they are accursed people who can never hope for a better life? Or even a life at all?


[/quote]

No. The lesser evil is to tell them that their lives have meaning, even at this, their lowest point.

That politics is a game, not a zero sum life and death battle (complete with soldiers and generals as the crap ODM ideology of 'risai moja' would have it).

That no politician is worth losing life or limb for.

That conceding defeat is not a weakness but a strength.

That their lives are important and no one, NO ONE, has call to ask them to lay their lives down for them, no matter what the stakes are.

That the winner is not the one who dies but the one who lives to fight another day.

Why is it so hard for Raila to get this?


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
tycho
#52 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 5:03:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:

Quote:



Yes I know. Many of the youth rioting believe it is worth dying for a cause and Raila epitomizes that cause. But is it? Would you Tycho be willing to die for Raila or Uhuru?

The fact is is most of these youth are deluded children, who don't even understand that they are mere pawns in a naked game for power, to be forgotten even before their corpses are cold.

Anyone who plays with peoples lives in this manner is not a leader in my book and should be told so in no uncertain terms.

[/quote]

And which is the lesser evil; accepting that they are accursed people who can never hope for a better life? Or even a life at all?


[/quote]

No. The lesser evil is to tell them that their lives have meaning, even at this, their lowest point.

That politics is a game, not a zero sum life and death battle (complete with soldiers and generals as the crap ODM ideology of 'risai moja' would have it).

That no politician is worth losing life or limb for.

That conceding defeat is not a weakness but a strength.

That their lives are important and no one, NO ONE, has call to ask them to lay their lives down for them, no matter what the stakes are.

That the winner is not the one who dies but the one who lives to fight another day.

Why is it so hard for Raila to get this?


[/quote]

No. @Wakanyugi. It's not about telling. It's about effecting a living. In a world of violence and the threat of violence you can only effect a living at the battle front.

Isn't this the narrative that sustains many of us?

Let's take that it's only Raila who is refusing to concede; what could prevent him from doing so? A sudden burst of madness?
Wakanyugi
#53 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 5:28:36 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635

[/quote]

No. @Wakanyugi. It's not about telling. It's about effecting a living. In a world of violence and the threat of violence you can only effect a living at the battle front.

Isn't this the narrative that sustains many of us?

Let's take that it's only Raila who is refusing to concede; what could prevent him from doing so? A sudden burst of madness? [/quote]

You can only effect a living if you preserve life, your own or another. Recklessly confronting armed men is no way to guarantee this. Similarly allowing deluded young men to be so reckless in your name is to me an abdication of leadership and humanity.

I would not say Raila is mad. But then his oversize ego is a well known handicap, so much so that Jubilee built a strategy to beat him based largely on the assumption that he can never overcome this negative character flaw. It worked.

But then again maybe this is what madness is like. After all, to misquote Euripides, or Ola Rotimi: "He whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make proud'




"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
FRM2011
#54 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 5:46:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/5/2010
Posts: 2,459

The banality of evil

I recommend the above book for @Angelica and @obi. They are still shocked that fellow wazuans whom they have always regarded highly have lumped them together with the troublesome Luos who are giving Uhuru a hard time to govern. As such, the violence meted on them (Luos) is because their leader has refused to concede. Had Raila conceded, the poor policeman in Kisumu would not have been forced to clobber 6-month old pendo.

When Adolf Eichmann was snatched by an elite team of Mossad from a street in Argentina and taken to Israel to face trial, many people were scared of looking directly to his eyes. He was the closest one would get to the devil. Here was the man tasked with executing the "final solution" of finishing off the jews.

Top universities in the world sent their best professors and psychologists to understand the mind of a psychopathic monster. What they found was shocking.....

"These psychologists found not only no trace of mental illness, but also no evidence of abnormal personality whatsoever. One doctor remarked that his overall attitude towards other people, especially his family and friends, was "highly desirable", while another remarked that the only unusual trait Eichmann displayed was being more "normal" in his habits and speech than the average person "

And thus the emergence of the phrase banality of evil.

"Evil deeds are, for the most part, not perpetrated by monsters or sadists. Most often, they are perpetrated by seemingly ordinary people like Adolf Eichmann, who value conformity and narrow self-interest over the welfare of others "

Psychologists observed the same when dealing with the Rwandese genocide perpetrators. I was fascinated by the actions of the three top women;

1. Pauline Nyiramasuhuko - Min of Family Affairs and Women’s Development
2. Agnes Ntamabyariro - Minister of Justice
3. Sister Gertrude Mukangango and Sister Julienne Kizito of the Sovu Monastery.

All educated and well traveled but for two months between April and June 1994, oversaw unspeakable atrocities on fellow women.

Felicitee` Semakuba deserves special mention. She was pregnant during the genocide but her sadism shocked even the judges. In one instance, her victims were too many she would kill hundreds of them with bullets and grenades until she got exhausted. She could go back home and come again the following morning to continue. It lasted three days.

Psychologists confirmed she had no mental illness. She was an average person. Incentivized by the genocide. There is a latent Nazi or interhamwe in each one of us.

Any observant Wazuan would have noted this by now.
tycho
#55 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 5:53:39 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:



No. @Wakanyugi. It's not about telling. It's about effecting a living. In a world of violence and the threat of violence you can only effect a living at the battle front.

Isn't this the narrative that sustains many of us?

Let's take that it's only Raila who is refusing to concede; what could prevent him from doing so? A sudden burst of madness? [/quote]

You can only effect a living if you preserve life, your own or another. Recklessly confronting armed men is no way to guarantee this. Similarly allowing deluded young men to be so reckless in your name is to me an abdication of leadership and humanity.

I would not say Raila is mad. But then his oversize ego is a well known handicap, so much so that Jubilee built a strategy to beat him based largely on the assumption that he can never overcome this negative character flaw. It worked.

But then again maybe this is what madness is like. After all, to misquote Euripides, or Ola Rotimi: "He whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make proud'

[/quote]

So you're simply saying that Raila is refusing to concede because he has an over sized ego. I'd bet that there's enough evidence to show that indeed Raila has an over sized ego.

For me, I wouldn't want to go for over simplicity even to the extent of neglecting available evidence. One would be hard pressed to show the 'over-sizedness' of Raila.

All thinking @Wakanyugi can only be systems thinking. And it's only when we place Raila in a context of our system as a country that we can even begin to understand his and our behavior and start making amends where needed.
Wakanyugi
#56 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 6:10:47 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:



No. @Wakanyugi. It's not about telling. It's about effecting a living. In a world of violence and the threat of violence you can only effect a living at the battle front.

Isn't this the narrative that sustains many of us?

Let's take that it's only Raila who is refusing to concede; what could prevent him from doing so? A sudden burst of madness?


You can only effect a living if you preserve life, your own or another. Recklessly confronting armed men is no way to guarantee this. Similarly allowing deluded young men to be so reckless in your name is to me an abdication of leadership and humanity.

I would not say Raila is mad. But then his oversize ego is a well known handicap, so much so that Jubilee built a strategy to beat him based largely on the assumption that he can never overcome this negative character flaw. It worked.

But then again maybe this is what madness is like. After all, to misquote Euripides, or Ola Rotimi: "He whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make proud'

[/quote]

So you're simply saying that Raila is refusing to concede because he has an over sized ego. I'd bet that there's enough evidence to show that indeed Raila has an over sized ego.

[/quote]

[/quote]



Maybe he truly believes he won, despite having shown no evidence to back this claim this far.

As for his oversize ego, that is a known fact and evidence abounds.

But, if pride is not the cause of his inexplicable behavior now, what would you say is the reason? After all what has happened in 2017 that did not happen to him in 2013, yet his reaction then was quite different?
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Obi 1 Kanobi
#57 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 6:17:53 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
FRM2011 wrote:

The banality of evil

I recommend the above book for @Angelica and @obi. They are still shocked that fellow wazuans whom they have always regarded highly have lumped them together with the troublesome Luos who are giving Uhuru a hard time to govern. As such, the violence meted on them (Luos) is because their leader has refused to concede. Had Raila conceded, the poor policeman in Kisumu would not have been forced to clobber 6-month old pendo.

When Adolf Eichmann was snatched by an elite team of Mossad from a street in Argentina and taken to Israel to face trial, many people were scared of looking directly to his eyes. He was the closest one would get to the devil. Here was the man tasked with executing the "final solution" of finishing off the jews.

Top universities in the world sent their best professors and psychologists to understand the mind of a psychopathic monster. What they found was shocking.....

"These psychologists found not only no trace of mental illness, but also no evidence of abnormal personality whatsoever. One doctor remarked that his overall attitude towards other people, especially his family and friends, was "highly desirable", while another remarked that the only unusual trait Eichmann displayed was being more "normal" in his habits and speech than the average person "

And thus the emergence of the phrase banality of evil.

"Evil deeds are, for the most part, not perpetrated by monsters or sadists. Most often, they are perpetrated by seemingly ordinary people like Adolf Eichmann, who value conformity and narrow self-interest over the welfare of others "

Psychologists observed the same when dealing with the Rwandese genocide perpetrators. I was fascinated by the actions of the three top women;

1. Pauline Nyiramasuhuko - Min of Family Affairs and Women’s Development
2. Agnes Ntamabyariro - Minister of Justice
3. Sister Gertrude Mukangango and Sister Julienne Kizito of the Sovu Monastery.

All educated and well traveled but for two months between April and June 1994, oversaw unspeakable atrocities on fellow women.

Felicitee` Semakuba deserves special mention. She was pregnant during the genocide but her sadism shocked even the judges. In one instance, her victims were too many she would kill hundreds of them with bullets and grenades until she got exhausted. She could go back home and come again the following morning to continue. It lasted three days.

Psychologists confirmed she had no mental illness. She was an average person. Incentivized by the genocide. There is a latent Nazi or interhamwe in each one of us.

Any observant Wazuan would have noted this by now.


@FRM2011 I don't think its that bad here, I am just a bit surprised by some here. Now, I didn't challenge other peoples passions for supporting their preferred candidates before elections, that was understandable, but the open hatred after winning honestly surprised me.

Now I interact with Kenyans from various backgrounds and I have to be honest and say that politics when discussed is generally subdued when the group has people with an opposing views, I am therefore struggling to picture any of my friends or acquaintances who I can liken to some here. Many after the results started trickling in simply accepted them as they were, filtered out the political noise and reverted to more relevant topics. No hard feelings, no taunting etc.

Wazua seems to be stuck on the election timewarp. Must be differing circles

"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
tycho
#58 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 6:28:48 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:



No. @Wakanyugi. It's not about telling. It's about effecting a living. In a world of violence and the threat of violence you can only effect a living at the battle front.

Isn't this the narrative that sustains many of us?

Let's take that it's only Raila who is refusing to concede; what could prevent him from doing so? A sudden burst of madness?


You can only effect a living if you preserve life, your own or another. Recklessly confronting armed men is no way to guarantee this. Similarly allowing deluded young men to be so reckless in your name is to me an abdication of leadership and humanity.

I would not say Raila is mad. But then his oversize ego is a well known handicap, so much so that Jubilee built a strategy to beat him based largely on the assumption that he can never overcome this negative character flaw. It worked.

But then again maybe this is what madness is like. After all, to misquote Euripides, or Ola Rotimi: "He whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make proud'



So you're simply saying that Raila is refusing to concede because he has an over sized ego. I'd bet that there's enough evidence to show that indeed Raila has an over sized ego.

[/quote]

[/quote]



Maybe he truly believes he won, despite having shown no evidence to back this claim this far.

As for his oversize ego, that is a known fact and evidence abounds.

But, if pride is not the cause of his inexplicable behavior now, what would you say is the reason? After all what has happened in 2017 that did not happen to him in 2013, yet his reaction then was quite different?
[/quote]

I've been trying to ask myself the same questions. Of course the task is more difficult in that I'm not only restricted from moving and making a real investigation but I'm also keen on working on other things.

But, there's a trend among leaders to either raise their power status or keep to the status quo. Perhaps the former president of Gambia gave us a hint of what happens and who are involved.

If we study some of the live videos and events by NASA we can glean some information.

For example: NASA wasn't designed with enough flexibility to withstand loss and thus has a compulsion on certain members to try as much as possible to keep their inflexible raison de tre.

Uncertainty on new power alignments may call for procrastination and Raila may be compelled to cover for other members as they did for him. And he'd be obliged only he'd have to speak less often. Even Babu Owino has volunteered to speak for him!

Then opportunistic infections arise and people start dying. We start blaming Raila and Luos and soon we are in a real war. We may be in a position where we can make a war to declare itself and self organize.

That's a worse danger than Raila.
B.Timer
#59 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 6:33:26 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
tycho wrote:
B.Timer wrote:
Orchestration is almost certain.
The following link seems to point to part of the chain.



http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Ma...056870-cjb3es/index.html


@B Timer: When one works with the assumption that violence is being created or orchestrated then it's easy to expect conflict to be inter-tribal 'Rwanda' kind of thing.

And when a population as Kenya's is involved we can't discount false and alarmist ideas springing up.

Case in point is how witnesses alter their accounts to fit popular imagination as presented in the media.

We must be aware of these factors when judging what's happening.

Hi @tycho
your sentiments have been duly noted.
Dunia ni msongamano..
tycho
#60 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 7:00:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
B.Timer wrote:
tycho wrote:
B.Timer wrote:
Orchestration is almost certain.
The following link seems to point to part of the chain.



http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Ma...056870-cjb3es/index.html


@B Timer: When one works with the assumption that violence is being created or orchestrated then it's easy to expect conflict to be inter-tribal 'Rwanda' kind of thing.

And when a population as Kenya's is involved we can't discount false and alarmist ideas springing up.

Case in point is how witnesses alter their accounts to fit popular imagination as presented in the media.

We must be aware of these factors when judging what's happening.

Hi @tycho
your sentiments have been duly noted.


Hi @B. Timer. I appreciate your listening.

My hope is that we can make the correct decisions as a nation and foster a true democracy in which the majority can live well. And I hope we can only be more critical and thoughtful, always caring about others, always being able to create new and powerful realities.
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