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2017 PEV Orchestration
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Mtu Biz wrote:tycho wrote:Mtu Biz wrote:tycho wrote:Mtu Biz wrote:tycho wrote:Mtu Biz wrote:
If we can all step back from reacting to each other's comments maybe some light can be shed for both the 'winners' and 'losers'.
Is it fair or just to ask.. on what is the assertion that 'the election was stolen' based on?
Can the basis of that assertion be interrogated?
Yes or No?
Yes. It can be interrogated. When there's a reference to 'the court of public opinion' then there's an invitation to interrogation. By the way, any concerned citizen(s) can find a way via the courts. If Yes, Is it just or fair to ask that the originator of the assertion provide this basis ? It may be fair and just to ask the originator. And in fact, if the originator wishes to engender enlightened public opinion then he/they should engage their 'bloggers' for example. But there's also a possibility that the originator isn't in a position to respond as we wish. Do we go for his jugular? The response to this question need not be complex. The election was stolen because.... 1. 2. 3. Is it just or fair to interrogate 1,2 and 3 as provided by the originator of this assertion ? The responses to these questions are never simple if we're serious about our lives. Yes. It's just and fair to interrogate the responses as provided by the originator. Is the forum provided in our current laws, that offers a public platform for this interrogation of the basis of these assertions and offers determinations based on verifiable information provided, a fair and just forum ? i.e Courts? Yes. In fact, my opinion is that if NASA doesn't go to court then someone else can. On the other hand, the issue of dispute resolution goes further than the courts. As I said earlier, we're operating in an environment in which even the courts and their procedures are suspect. For example, when there were forceful movements of the Maasai in the early 1900s some of the Maasai leaders went to court but their efforts were frustrated! So we can't take the courts as the final arbiters of all disputes unless the disputes themselves are interrogated well and carefully enough and it's seen that the courts are the best way. Notice that even the former CJ advocated for a change of dispute resolution in Kenya at least for the sake of the efficiency and effectiveness of the judiciary.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Nandwa wrote:Mubebelezano uishe.
Let RAO be told the naked truth.
The people who are dying as a result of the ill advised chaotic protests are squarely due to him - RAO.
Why is it taboo to tell RAO the hard truth! And what is this truth? That Raila lost 'fairly'? How much do we know about this? Consider this other 'truth'. The courts are the best suited to determine the truth. But what happens in instances where 'truth' threatens the status quo and the imminent change is deemed too costly, even by some of those who are to determine the truth? I'd like to use the example of the ICC cases against the now president elect and his deputy. Considering the lobbying and jockeying that was evident, the ICC had to consider the threat to its existence and it's probable that this was an influence in how the court decided to deal with the cases. The big question now is how we can negotiate truth in a pluralist society, and also how and whether this truth can be enforced or effected. We lose it when we define the problem simply as, 'Raila'. Sorry Tycho but you and I part ways here. A true leader is known when things are going bad, not just when sycophants are massaging his ego. If Raila can convince 6 million Kenyans to vote for him, he can convince a few misled youth not to die for him, as many of them are deluded into thinking. So far he has done no such thing. Granted he will lose face in doing so, but are the lives of our young people less important than his ego? Our country will get now where if we can not hold those we apoint to lead us to account. From what you're saying I can imagine that at least one assumption you have is that 'All leaders are superior to whom they lead and that they are immune from influences of those they lead'. Otherwise, if our assumption were the leaders are subject to influence and therefore can be scripted we'd be looking at this matter differently. Pause for a moment and imagine: what really happens if Raila doesn't say anything but there's inherent injustice in our system and the only way out is an overhaul or revolution? So far that's the implicit message. For me it's no longer about pressuring Raila to concede. As you've seen it goes deep into question of sanity, being. It's about making sense of day to day life experience. 'All leaders are superior to whom they lead and that they are immune from influences of those they lead'.They don't have to be superior to the led, but they have to lead. And that means not just enjoying the perks of power but stepping up to the plate when things go south, sacrificing their ego, beliefs and comforts even, for the good of those who trusted them with leadership. "Otherwise, if our assumption were the leaders are subject to influence and therefore can be scripted we'd be looking at this matter differently."So Raila is no longer accountable for his actions, seeing as he has been scripted? Then why did he want to lead Kenya in the first place? Look Tycho, scripted or not, Raila has the power to save lives today, at no more cost to him than loss of face. It seems he won't do it, either because to him those lives are expendable or some other warped reason. And you want us to excuse such? Please You know even the young people protesting believe your statement to be true? The only other addition, being that it's worth dying for the cause.
Yes I know. Many of the youth rioting believe it is worth dying for a cause and Raila epitomizes that cause. But is it? Would you Tycho be willing to die for Raila or Uhuru? The fact is is most of these youth are deluded children, who don't even understand that they are mere pawns in a naked game for power, to be forgotten even before their corpses are cold. Anyone who plays with peoples lives in this manner is not a leader in my book and should be told so in no uncertain terms. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Njung'e wrote:Use of live ammunition on citizens is wrong and unacceptable even at times when the said protesters are quite unreasonable. I think the police have other civil and reasonable ways of handling the protesters. How about locking down the affected slums and man the roads to and from with roadblocks? Allow only peaceful residents in and out. The rest of the town dwellers will go about their business as usual. If the slum dwellers decide to destroy and burn down their infrastructure like they have done with Olympic Primary School, allow them to. I agree with everything else but you can't allow people to destroy property!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 8/4/2008 Posts: 2,849 Location: Rupi
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If we citizens choose to use our brains, the question of incitement would not even arise. We are fools. Sadly so. Lord, thank you!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Nandwa wrote:Mubebelezano uishe.
Let RAO be told the naked truth.
The people who are dying as a result of the ill advised chaotic protests are squarely due to him - RAO.
Why is it taboo to tell RAO the hard truth! And what is this truth? That Raila lost 'fairly'? How much do we know about this? Consider this other 'truth'. The courts are the best suited to determine the truth. But what happens in instances where 'truth' threatens the status quo and the imminent change is deemed too costly, even by some of those who are to determine the truth? I'd like to use the example of the ICC cases against the now president elect and his deputy. Considering the lobbying and jockeying that was evident, the ICC had to consider the threat to its existence and it's probable that this was an influence in how the court decided to deal with the cases. The big question now is how we can negotiate truth in a pluralist society, and also how and whether this truth can be enforced or effected. We lose it when we define the problem simply as, 'Raila'. Sorry Tycho but you and I part ways here. A true leader is known when things are going bad, not just when sycophants are massaging his ego. If Raila can convince 6 million Kenyans to vote for him, he can convince a few misled youth not to die for him, as many of them are deluded into thinking. So far he has done no such thing. Granted he will lose face in doing so, but are the lives of our young people less important than his ego? Our country will get now where if we can not hold those we apoint to lead us to account. From what you're saying I can imagine that at least one assumption you have is that 'All leaders are superior to whom they lead and that they are immune from influences of those they lead'. Otherwise, if our assumption were the leaders are subject to influence and therefore can be scripted we'd be looking at this matter differently. Pause for a moment and imagine: what really happens if Raila doesn't say anything but there's inherent injustice in our system and the only way out is an overhaul or revolution? So far that's the implicit message. For me it's no longer about pressuring Raila to concede. As you've seen it goes deep into question of sanity, being. It's about making sense of day to day life experience. 'All leaders are superior to whom they lead and that they are immune from influences of those they lead'.They don't have to be superior to the led, but they have to lead. And that means not just enjoying the perks of power but stepping up to the plate when things go south, sacrificing their ego, beliefs and comforts even, for the good of those who trusted them with leadership. "Otherwise, if our assumption were the leaders are subject to influence and therefore can be scripted we'd be looking at this matter differently."So Raila is no longer accountable for his actions, seeing as he has been scripted? Then why did he want to lead Kenya in the first place? Look Tycho, scripted or not, Raila has the power to save lives today, at no more cost to him than loss of face. It seems he won't do it, either because to him those lives are expendable or some other warped reason. And you want us to excuse such? Please You know even the young people protesting believe your statement to be true? The only other addition, being that it's worth dying for the cause.
Yes I know. Many of the youth rioting believe it is worth dying for a cause and Raila epitomizes that cause. But is it? Would you Tycho be willing to die for Raila or Uhuru? The fact is is most of these youth are deluded children, who don't even understand that they are mere pawns in a naked game for power, to be forgotten even before their corpses are cold.Anyone who plays with peoples lives in this manner is not a leader in my book and should be told so in no uncertain terms. And which is the lesser evil; accepting that they are accursed people who can never hope for a better life? Or even a life at all? We can have what you may call ideal conditions of peace and have lives being lost in a kind of accursed 'zombiehood'. If one were to tell the elected leadership in no uncertain terms that they are playing with millions of lives, would they and their supporters be willing to listen?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Euge wrote:If we citizens choose to use our brains, the question of incitement would not even arise. We are fools. Sadly so. I suspect that there's no proof of incitement here. Some people use their brains wrongly and join the ranks of fools.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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Mtu Biz wrote:
If we can all step back from reacting to each other's comments maybe some light can be shed for both the 'winners' and 'losers'.
Is it fair or just to ask.. on what is the assertion that 'the election was stolen' based on?
Can the basis of that assertion be interrogated?
Yes or No?
To answer your question Baba lost coz? 1. There is no convincing evidence NASA has provided to challenge the results as given by IEBC 2. IEBC seems to have remained very neutral and nothing in their actions suggests otherwise, if anything they have been very accommodating of NASA querries 3. Other than the presidential loss, NASA seems to have lost in all other elective positions in more areas of the country "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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I doubt if anyone is orchestrating PEV in 2017.
In fact, maybe we need to redefine what we're experiencing now as a nation.
If someone has experienced a loss, even deservedly, how do we meet their needs, not, how do we convince them of reality.
What is the extent of the loss or feeling of loss?
Someone shared about the grieving process; is it automatic that the process will flow, and what time would it take?
Could a significant portion of our population be the 'depression cycles'?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 5/31/2008 Posts: 1,076
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Orchestration is almost certain. The following link seems to point to part of the chain. http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Ma...056870-cjb3es/index.htmlDunia ni msongamano..
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@B Timer: When one works with the assumption that violence is being created or orchestrated then it's easy to expect conflict to be inter-tribal 'Rwanda' kind of thing. And when a population as Kenya's is involved we can't discount false and alarmist ideas springing up. Case in point is how witnesses alter their accounts to fit popular imagination as presented in the media. We must be aware of these factors when judging what's happening.
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