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Law Capping interest rates
tom_boy
#2221 Posted : Monday, July 31, 2017 7:37:28 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
winston wrote:
For the pro-rate brigade, please help us understand what will force the banks to open their tight fists and lend to wanjiku under the current scenario?
1) Dwindling profits?
2) Public pressure?
3) Competition?
4) Government force (legislation)?
As long as risk-free rates on government securities are more attractive than lending at a flat rate to the borrowing public (on a risk adjusted basis)...we shall continue to wait for the banks to relent...and wait in vain.


When they realise that they can actually make more money by lending carefully to credit worthy individuals and companies.

When it hits them that CBK is not and will not accept those high bids they have been putting in for bills and bonds.

When CBK decides to accept even lower bids of 9.5%, then 9%, and eventually go to 8% for bills and bonds.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
winston
#2222 Posted : Monday, July 31, 2017 9:31:42 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/14/2010
Posts: 806
Location: Nairobi
tom_boy wrote:
winston wrote:
For the pro-rate brigade, please help us understand what will force the banks to open their tight fists and lend to wanjiku under the current scenario?
1) Dwindling profits?
2) Public pressure?
3) Competition?
4) Government force (legislation)?
As long as risk-free rates on government securities are more attractive than lending at a flat rate to the borrowing public (on a risk adjusted basis)...we shall continue to wait for the banks to relent...and wait in vain.


When they realise that they can actually make more money by lending carefully to credit worthy individuals and companies.

When it hits them that CBK is not and will not accept those high bids they have been putting in for bills and bonds.

When CBK decides to accept even lower bids of 9.5%, then 9%, and eventually go to 8% for bills and bonds.

so the same gova which introduced caps is hindering those same caps from working?
mkeiy
#2223 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:36:35 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/27/2012
Posts: 851
Location: Nairobi
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
mobutu123 wrote:
Banks have to be innovative.
if i may ask these guys supporting removal of
caps.give 3 reasons how caps removal will make my business and the economy grow.

With vibrancy in the economy your business will benefit.
SMEs who are hard up would get a reprieve and spur the economy.
Whatever you sell, they will begin (new customers) buying or increase (old customers) their volume of purchase.

By the way though I support the removal of rate caps as we know them to date, I do not deny that there is need to engage the banking/finance sector players in a constructive, and consultative way, that does not involve bludgeoning them into submission as seems to be the case currently.

Handled meaningfully we should be able to roll out an interest rate regime that is not debilitating to the borrower, but at the same time good for the lender.

While at it we must take note that interest rate for this economy is determined by factors that are unique to our economy and all that pertains to it, including CORRUPTION, which I submit is a key factor here.

As such the whole issue represents one big irony of the rate cap law, as imposed by those who ought to check corruption levels – then everything else follows!

There is nothing unique to our economy. Economics has and will always have 4 factors of production the world over.



@Obi.
Are you sure about that?
Example;
In Matata business, that 50bob to cops, under which of the 'traditional 4 factors' does that fall under?
mkeiy
#2224 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:42:47 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/27/2012
Posts: 851
Location: Nairobi
Mukiri wrote:
Loans should be at 1 or 2%! Anything above 5% is corruption. If default is their argument, then shouldn't banks reduce interest to make repayment feasible? Ours is a man-eat-man country, and if nobody looks out for ordinary mwanainchi, the bullies will have a feild day.

And while we are at it, calling rates should be cents.. Whats with all these super billions reported in profits, with a Wanjiku insulted as 3rd World. Ali baba and Crypto, come restore some sanity


'Sirkal'-saidia-mentality.


mkeiy
#2225 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:55:23 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/27/2012
Posts: 851
Location: Nairobi
tom_boy wrote:
mkeiy wrote:
tom_boy wrote:



Let us debate. The problem is many of the anti rate cap brigade are theory people.

Which bank has EVER lent money to a startup that has no security and no big connections before they are able to demonstrate clear positive cash flow. Tell me just one instance in Kenya even at those 25% interest.

Established business is not = to big business. An established business is one that is selling a good or service, customers are buying and actually paying for the items, there is a system to how the business runs and this system is expected to continue running in the forseeable future. Fly by night tenderpreneurship is not an established business. Mama mboga or mama Oliech is an established business. I hope guys can get this. Stop with many theories. Look at what is practical


@tom-boy.
Practical is what I do.
I am in business,is that theory too?
I can count from my left hand fingers to my right hand fingers,small businesses,worth 100k or so in the year 2010,are now businesses worth millions. Thanks to bank loans. Those kind of loans, are not available now

Real people, real businesses. In 6 years.

The ones at that stage right now,starting at 100k, ceteris paribus, cannot get even a single penny from the same banks.

In 2023,after 6 years from now, how much will their businesses be worth?

Mambo ya theories na tenderpreneurs toa kwa huu mjadala.


In that case, if you have a real business going, it means uko na cash flow and some profit. Hang in there my brother, the banks will soon come to their senses and come looking for you.


@tom-boy.
Would you just answer the question in dark blue please!
Ngalaka
#2226 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 9:26:40 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
mkeiy wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
mobutu123 wrote:
Banks have to be innovative.
if i may ask these guys supporting removal of
caps.give 3 reasons how caps removal will make my business and the economy grow.

With vibrancy in the economy your business will benefit.
SMEs who are hard up would get a reprieve and spur the economy.
Whatever you sell, they will begin (new customers) buying or increase (old customers) their volume of purchase.

By the way though I support the removal of rate caps as we know them to date, I do not deny that there is need to engage the banking/finance sector players in a constructive, and consultative way, that does not involve bludgeoning them into submission as seems to be the case currently.

Handled meaningfully we should be able to roll out an interest rate regime that is not debilitating to the borrower, but at the same time good for the lender.

While at it we must take note that interest rate for this economy is determined by factors that are unique to our economy and all that pertains to it, including CORRUPTION, which I submit is a key factor here.

As such the whole issue represents one big irony of the rate cap law, as imposed by those who ought to check corruption levels – then everything else follows!

There is nothing unique to our economy. Economics has and will always have 4 factors of production the world over.



@Obi.
Are you sure about that?
Example;
In Matata business, that 50bob to cops, under which of the 'traditional 4 factors' does that fall under?

Sometimes people here argue for the sake of arguing.
Ignoring reality which is in open sight!
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
Ngalaka
#2227 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 9:33:04 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
Until the other day, Barclays in UK and the one here were under one directorship.
However their interest regimes were as different as it gets as a function of the different environments in which they operate.
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
Obi 1 Kanobi
#2228 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 11:26:11 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
mkeiy wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
mobutu123 wrote:
Banks have to be innovative.
if i may ask these guys supporting removal of
caps.give 3 reasons how caps removal will make my business and the economy grow.

With vibrancy in the economy your business will benefit.
SMEs who are hard up would get a reprieve and spur the economy.
Whatever you sell, they will begin (new customers) buying or increase (old customers) their volume of purchase.

By the way though I support the removal of rate caps as we know them to date, I do not deny that there is need to engage the banking/finance sector players in a constructive, and consultative way, that does not involve bludgeoning them into submission as seems to be the case currently.

Handled meaningfully we should be able to roll out an interest rate regime that is not debilitating to the borrower, but at the same time good for the lender.

While at it we must take note that interest rate for this economy is determined by factors that are unique to our economy and all that pertains to it, including CORRUPTION, which I submit is a key factor here.

As such the whole issue represents one big irony of the rate cap law, as imposed by those who ought to check corruption levels – then everything else follows!

There is nothing unique to our economy. Economics has and will always have 4 factors of production the world over.



@Obi.
Are you sure about that?
Example;
In Matata business, that 50bob to cops, under which of the 'traditional 4 factors' does that fall under?


Which factor of production collects rent, that's the factor that bribe collection belongs to(the 4 factors are meant to display economic theory in its simplest form) .

The point that I am trying to make is that we as a country are not unique in any way. Our greatest challenge as a country is leadership/management skills (which happens to be the most important) and we try to explain it away as uniqueness or special circumstances etc. managerial skills
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
Ngalaka
#2229 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 11:41:08 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
As an investor, one consider all the factors contributing to cost of product/sales/providing service including risk then prices his product/service.
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
Obi 1 Kanobi
#2230 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 1:56:08 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
http://www.businessdaily...39986-ibk77b/index.html

How did this 11 banks arrive at different risk prices for their KQ loans.

Doesn't look like any analysis was carried out. Seems most banks just lend to this supposed large corporates at whichever rates the corporates want.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
tom_boy
#2231 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 5:22:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
mkeiy wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
mkeiy wrote:
tom_boy wrote:



Let us debate. The problem is many of the anti rate cap brigade are theory people.

Which bank has EVER lent money to a startup that has no security and no big connections before they are able to demonstrate clear positive cash flow. Tell me just one instance in Kenya even at those 25% interest.

Established business is not = to big business. An established business is one that is selling a good or service, customers are buying and actually paying for the items, there is a system to how the business runs and this system is expected to continue running in the forseeable future. Fly by night tenderpreneurship is not an established business. Mama mboga or mama Oliech is an established business. I hope guys can get this. Stop with many theories. Look at what is practical


@tom-boy.
Practical is what I do.
I am in business,is that theory too?
I can count from my left hand fingers to my right hand fingers,small businesses,worth 100k or so in the year 2010,are now businesses worth millions. Thanks to bank loans. Those kind of loans, are not available now

Real people, real businesses. In 6 years.

The ones at that stage right now,starting at 100k, ceteris paribus, cannot get even a single penny from the same banks.

In 2023,after 6 years from now, how much will their businesses be worth?

Mambo ya theories na tenderpreneurs toa kwa huu mjadala.


In that case, if you have a real business going, it means uko na cash flow and some profit. Hang in there my brother, the banks will soon come to their senses and come looking for you.


@tom-boy.
Would you just answer the question in dark blue please!


My fren, the problem is that you want to take the example of a few businesses that you know and assume that that is the norm. On the contrary, with every 1 business that seems to do well while paying 25% interest rate, there are probably more than 10 start ups ( by your definition) that have been ruined by the same unpredictable high rates. There are probably thousands who have been auctioned due to same high rates.

Please sir, list for me 5 clean businesses that will qualify for a bank loan and give > 25% return on that loan, so as to emerge multi million business in 6 yrs. Please note the words qualify for a bank loan. Not shady, connections ridden loans that usually involve kickbacks and equally shady deals.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
mkeiy
#2232 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 5:54:16 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/27/2012
Posts: 851
Location: Nairobi
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
mkeiy wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
mobutu123 wrote:
Banks have to be innovative.
if i may ask these guys supporting removal of
caps.give 3 reasons how caps removal will make my business and the economy grow.

With vibrancy in the economy your business will benefit.
SMEs who are hard up would get a reprieve and spur the economy.
Whatever you sell, they will begin (new customers) buying or increase (old customers) their volume of purchase.

By the way though I support the removal of rate caps as we know them to date, I do not deny that there is need to engage the banking/finance sector players in a constructive, and consultative way, that does not involve bludgeoning them into submission as seems to be the case currently.

Handled meaningfully we should be able to roll out an interest rate regime that is not debilitating to the borrower, but at the same time good for the lender.

While at it we must take note that interest rate for this economy is determined by factors that are unique to our economy and all that pertains to it, including CORRUPTION, which I submit is a key factor here.

As such the whole issue represents one big irony of the rate cap law, as imposed by those who ought to check corruption levels – then everything else follows!

There is nothing unique to our economy. Economics has and will always have 4 factors of production the world over.



@Obi.
Are you sure about that?
Example;
In Matata business, that 50bob to cops, under which of the 'traditional 4 factors' does that fall under?


Which factor of production collects rent, that's the factor that bribe collection belongs to(the 4 factors are meant to display economic theory in its simplest form) .

The point that I am trying to make is that we as a country are not unique in any way. Our greatest challenge as a country is leadership/management skills (which happens to be the most important) and we try to explain it away as uniqueness or special circumstances etc. managerial skills


@Obi.
Your argument was there's nothing unique about Kenyan business environment. Now you're shifting to managerial skills.

In another post you talked of credit history & how they use that in the UK, a guy who sold his camels in Moyale, has about one million running a small business for 6 months in need of a loan of 500k,using your UK risk rating, what credit history do you use?

Kenya is not United Kingdom. Do PSV's in the UK pay 50 bob to boys in blue every trip?
Now, if a matatu guy in Kenya & bus operator in the UK were to apply for loans, are the risks same? How/why?

Avoid theories,give practical answers.

tom_boy
#2233 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 5:56:53 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
mkeiy wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
mkeiy wrote:
tom_boy wrote:



Let us debate. The problem is many of the anti rate cap brigade are theory people.

Which bank has EVER lent money to a startup that has no security and no big connections before they are able to demonstrate clear positive cash flow. Tell me just one instance in Kenya even at those 25% interest.

Established business is not = to big business. An established business is one that is selling a good or service, customers are buying and actually paying for the items, there is a system to how the business runs and this system is expected to continue running in the forseeable future. Fly by night tenderpreneurship is not an established business. Mama mboga or mama Oliech is an established business. I hope guys can get this. Stop with many theories. Look at what is practical


@tom-boy.
Practical is what I do.
I am in business,is that theory too?
I can count from my left hand fingers to my right hand fingers,small businesses,worth 100k or so in the year 2010,are now businesses worth millions. Thanks to bank loans. Those kind of loans, are not available now

Real people, real businesses. In 6 years.

The ones at that stage right now,starting at 100k, ceteris paribus, cannot get even a single penny from the same banks.

In 2023,after 6 years from now, how much will their businesses be worth?

Mambo ya theories na tenderpreneurs toa kwa huu mjadala.


In that case, if you have a real business going, it means uko na cash flow and some profit. Hang in there my brother, the banks will soon come to their senses and come looking for you.


@tom-boy.
Would you just answer the question in dark blue please!


My fren, the problem is that you want to take the example of a few businesses that you know and assume that that is the norm. On the contrary, with every 1 business that seems to do well while paying 25% interest rate, there are probably more than 10 start ups ( by your definition) that have been ruined by the same unpredictable high rates. There are probably thousands who have been auctioned due to same high rates.

Most small businesses that take loans at high interest find it very difficult to grow. They end up mark timing, struggling to stay afloat. Having cash flow but no real profit.

Whereas I recognise some trading businesses can make handsome returns through compounding, my arguement is that high rates divert capital to such trading enterprises like mitumba and land traders whereas that capital could be better utilised in farming,manufacturing, tourism and construction.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
obiero
#2234 Posted : Tuesday, August 01, 2017 9:37:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,502
Location: nairobi
Let's pause this debate and ask ourselves who exactly wants this rate cap in its current form. It's proving helpful to no one in particular..

HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
TNT
#2235 Posted : Wednesday, August 02, 2017 12:00:47 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/22/2009
Posts: 206
obiero wrote:
Let's pause this debate and ask ourselves who exactly wants this rate cap in its current form. It's proving helpful to no one in particular..


I love the rate cap. I think its brilliant because it is punishing bad borrowers while rewarding good borrowers at the same time. My only problem with it is I think CBK need to drop their base rate even further so that interest rates drop to sub 10%.

If banks are comfortable lending at 25%, then then should be comfortable lending at 14%. If they are uncomfortable lending at 25%, then they should be uncomfortable lending at 14%. No need to punish good borrowers in order to reward bad borrowers.

I say let banks close if they want. Let businesses that fail due to bad financial management and poor strategies fail. The mess that is bad loans needs to clean itself somehow. When all is said and done, stronger, more financially responsible businesses will raise from the ashes.
mkeiy
#2236 Posted : Wednesday, August 02, 2017 7:15:25 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/27/2012
Posts: 851
Location: Nairobi
obiero wrote:
Let's pause this debate and ask ourselves who exactly wants this rate cap in its current form. It's proving helpful to no one in particular..


@Obiero.
Just to add two more questions.In business, you need both your supplier & client afloat.

Who amongst the pro-rates cap is in business?

How is the rate cap impacting on your biz?
mkeiy
#2237 Posted : Wednesday, August 02, 2017 7:20:10 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/27/2012
Posts: 851
Location: Nairobi
TNT wrote:
obiero wrote:
Let's pause this debate and ask ourselves who exactly wants this rate cap in its current form. It's proving helpful to no one in particular..


I love the rate cap. I think its brilliant because it is punishing bad borrowers while rewarding good borrowers at the same time. My only problem with it is I think CBK need to drop their base rate even further so that interest rates drop to sub 10%.

If banks are comfortable lending at 25%, then then should be comfortable lending at 14%. If they are uncomfortable lending at 25%, then they should be uncomfortable lending at 14%. No need to punish good borrowers in order to reward bad borrowers.

I say let banks close if they want. Let businesses that fail due to bad financial management and poor strategies fail. The mess that is bad loans needs to clean itself somehow. When all is said and done, stronger, more financially responsible businesses will raise from the ashes.


Economic depression leads to a myriad of social problems, you wish unto Kenyans. In such a mess, @TNT, we all drown. One way or the other.
mkeiy
#2238 Posted : Wednesday, August 02, 2017 7:42:14 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/27/2012
Posts: 851
Location: Nairobi
tom_boy wrote:



My fren, the problem is that you want to take the example of a few businesses that you know and assume that that is the norm. On the contrary, with every 1 business that seems to do well while paying 25% interest rate, there are probably more than 10 start ups ( by your definition) that have been ruined by the same unpredictable high rates. There are probably thousands who have been auctioned due to same high rates.

In your argument, not even a single small business sees the light of the day since only established business with a good credit history should get loans.
Most small businesses that take loans at high interest find it very difficult to grow. They end up mark timing, struggling to stay afloat. Having cash flow but no real profit.

Whereas I recognise some trading businesses can make handsome returns through compounding, my arguement is that high rates divert capital to such trading enterprises like mitumba and land traders
Are we not in a free economy where one engages in legit biz of their choice?
whereas that capital could be better utilised in farming,manufacturing, tourism and construction.
Are they getting the cheap loans? The small scale farmers doing horticulture. The jua Kali artisans. The tailors. The restaurants/food kiosks operators. The tours guys. The small contractors. Are they?


Finally, are you in biz or formal employment?

You seem to have a bone to pick with small businesses.

Or could you be Dangote by any chance? Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
tom_boy
#2239 Posted : Wednesday, August 02, 2017 7:45:27 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
mkeiy wrote:
obiero wrote:
Let's pause this debate and ask ourselves who exactly wants this rate cap in its current form. It's proving helpful to no one in particular..


@Obiero.
Just to add two more questions.In business, you need both your supplier & client afloat.

Who amongst the pro-rates cap is in business?

How is the rate cap impacting on your biz?


Its not just business people who borrow. People also want affordable mortgage. Increased mortgage uptake will spur construction, jobs and consumption.

Manufacturers and agribiz are crying out for affordable credit. Credit that goes to increasing production capacity, not to trading.

Hospitals all over Nairobi are constucting, increasing capacity. They are using equity fund money for the most part. They have been crying for affordable credit for many years.

Business people who feel strangled by current rate caps may actually be those that have been encouraging banks to lend to them at high rates thus punishing other good businesses that cannot afford to pay high rates but are otherwise stable and viable businesses.

Your biz @mkeiy must be a trading business. Those are the ones that can pay such rates comfortably. Or land traders. People with connections and nothing else but get a ride on other peoples money with no guarantee of paying back as they cannot demonstrate consistent cash flow but have a potentially dead asset.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
obiero
#2240 Posted : Wednesday, August 02, 2017 8:52:53 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,502
Location: nairobi
tom_boy wrote:
mkeiy wrote:
obiero wrote:
Let's pause this debate and ask ourselves who exactly wants this rate cap in its current form. It's proving helpful to no one in particular..


@Obiero.
Just to add two more questions.In business, you need both your supplier & client afloat.

Who amongst the pro-rates cap is in business?

How is the rate cap impacting on your biz?


Its not just business people who borrow. People also want affordable mortgage. Increased mortgage uptake will spur construction, jobs and consumption.

Manufacturers and agribiz are crying out for affordable credit. Credit that goes to increasing production capacity, not to trading.

Hospitals all over Nairobi are constucting, increasing capacity. They are using equity fund money for the most part. They have been crying for affordable credit for many years.

Business people who feel strangled by current rate caps may actually be those that have been encouraging banks to lend to them at high rates thus punishing other good businesses that cannot afford to pay high rates but are otherwise stable and viable businesses.

Your biz @mkeiy must be a trading business. Those are the ones that can pay such rates comfortably. Or land traders. People with connections and nothing else but get a ride on other peoples money with no guarantee of paying back as they cannot demonstrate consistent cash flow but have a potentially dead asset.

@mkeiy I generally do not like loans as guided by the Bible.. As for business, there is a downturn but I bet that the same is linked to the current political situation

HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
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