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Law Capping interest rates
Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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wukan wrote:tom_boy wrote:wukan wrote:@tom_boy you do realize that 3m loan at 25% for 1 year will only cost you just 421K in interest. If you import Japanese mitumba cars, buy and sell maize, buy and sell plots, trade shares you can still make a small margin and repay the loan. If you don't have that credit at 14% then does that not limit your economic activities. Very good, now we are getting somewhere. No we are not because you want to control the marketsMarkets have always been controlled. That is why there are rules and regulations in every economic activity. Just by reading the budget and introducing taxes here, levies there, exemptions here, the Goverment is in effect controlling/influencing market direction. Interest rate control can be looked at an influence towards better quality lending. So, is it your position that giving people loans to buy mitumba cars and sell to others ( on loan) is a sound way to grow the economy? Do you realise the opportunity cost is that businesses ( manufacturing, agric, tourism) that need 14% loans are denied a facility in favour of 25% mitumba dealer. How does this grow the economy? Satisfying Consumer demand to improve lifestyle that's how the economy grows. Mitumba cars sell like hot cake especially with young upwardly mobile 24 year olds. The cars consume fuel as they go to Naivasha to revel and helps tourism too. KRA gets duty, KPA staff, broker at the port gets a salary plus the prisoner making the number plates, the insurance guy, Omosh the mechanic etc. All those fellas will equally be employed in manufacturing, tourism (as waiters, tour guides), agriculture as KYM's, brokers, sellers etc. Its just a matter of which direction the economy grows. If capital was directed away from the mitumba economy and towards real value economy, the growth would be astronomical.Which bank has ever given a loan, even at that 25%, to a broker whose MAIN job is agricultural commodities. No other stable income source to service the loan. My point, this broker, without a salary, but able to access 25% loan to buy and sell maize, is a figment of the imagination of ' western economic theorists'. Assuming this guy has another regular income and was able to service a 25% loan in the past, why deny him a 14% loan to continue with his business? How has the risk changed? If he did not default at 25%, why should he default at 14% thus justify denying him the facility. In a credit crunch there is a flight to quality borrowers. That guy is low quality borrower, he is the last in line he can only attract capital at 25% because govt a prime borrower attracts capital at 13.5%. Just like my friends and relatives I give them interest free loans they can't pay wont pay so I refuse to lend them cash they end up at the shylock and pawning their furniture at 50% interest. Ask the Youth fund how many guys repay the 8% loans or HELB loans. here you conveniently ignore my analogy. This low quality borrower would not qualify even for the 25% loan. If indeed he has been qualifying for it, then there is no reason to deny him a 14% loan since nothing has changed other than a Goverment directive. His capacity to repay has not changed. The only change is a goverment directive. Why deny him a loan at 14%. Encouraging people to buy, hoard and sell plots on 25% interest loans? How does this help the economy? Why dont we also encourage them to buy , hoard and sell maize to the highest bidder? Refer to my earlier commentShares? Buying shares on loan? Is this a business? Can a bank loan money to such a business? Yes banks were lending like crazy for the Safaricom IPO. Such were the good times 25% interest encourages banks to loan to sectors/ individuals they should not be loaning money to in the first place. Secondly, it denies real business people, in manufacturing, agric, technology, construction, the money they need to grow as they are forced to compete for credit with conspicuos consumers. In the market it's willing buyer willing seller. 25% circulates cash in the economy, 14% only the govt and prime borrowers get credit. The consumer who would have bought the mitumba car foregoes consumption, and without his usual side hussles he consumes less goods and services then next nakumatt is not doing well, deacons is not doing well etc. Good point, I accept. However, to get even more money circulating in an economically beneficial manner, would it not be better to loan to good borrowers who will put that money to good use to generate jobs and even more money. This idea of willing buyer willing seller is another myth circulated by 'western economists'. Goverment control is always present, whether you see it or not. Goverment has a hand in pricing of all commodities sold in this country. Just because it chooses to show its hand more forcefully in the matter of bank loans is no reason to shout about controlling markets. how come nobody is complaining about free market when it comes to 90 bob maize? These theories apply when an economy has satisfied basic things like employment, food security etc etc. For as long as we have unemployment, money should go to industries capable of creating employment in multiples or commensurate with capital invested. Putting much needed cash in trade of mitumba and buying imported crisps, while local industries cannot expand for lack of the same capital is not wise. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/18/2014 Posts: 1,127
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Scbk and bbk have been easing into it. Not sure whether they have fully complied though. The main purpose of the stock market is to make fools of as many people as possible.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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tom_boy wrote:wukan wrote:tom_boy wrote:wukan wrote:@tom_boy you do realize that 3m loan at 25% for 1 year will only cost you just 421K in interest. If you import Japanese mitumba cars, buy and sell maize, buy and sell plots, trade shares you can still make a small margin and repay the loan. If you don't have that credit at 14% then does that not limit your economic activities. Very good, now we are getting somewhere. No we are not because you want to control the marketsMarkets have always been controlled. That is why there are rules and regulations in every economic activity. Just by reading the budget and introducing taxes here, levies there, exemptions here, the Goverment is in effect controlling/influencing market direction. Interest rate control can be looked at an influence towards better quality lending. So, is it your position that giving people loans to buy mitumba cars and sell to others ( on loan) is a sound way to grow the economy? Do you realise the opportunity cost is that businesses ( manufacturing, agric, tourism) that need 14% loans are denied a facility in favour of 25% mitumba dealer. How does this grow the economy? Satisfying Consumer demand to improve lifestyle that's how the economy grows. Mitumba cars sell like hot cake especially with young upwardly mobile 24 year olds. The cars consume fuel as they go to Naivasha to revel and helps tourism too. KRA gets duty, KPA staff, broker at the port gets a salary plus the prisoner making the number plates, the insurance guy, Omosh the mechanic etc. All those fellas will equally be employed in manufacturing, tourism (as waiters, tour guides), agriculture as KYM's, brokers, sellers etc. Its just a matter of which direction the economy grows. If capital was directed away from the mitumba economy and towards real value economy, the growth would be astronomical.Which bank has ever given a loan, even at that 25%, to a broker whose MAIN job is agricultural commodities. No other stable income source to service the loan. My point, this broker, without a salary, but able to access 25% loan to buy and sell maize, is a figment of the imagination of ' western economic theorists'. Assuming this guy has another regular income and was able to service a 25% loan in the past, why deny him a 14% loan to continue with his business? How has the risk changed? If he did not default at 25%, why should he default at 14% thus justify denying him the facility. In a credit crunch there is a flight to quality borrowers. That guy is low quality borrower, he is the last in line he can only attract capital at 25% because govt a prime borrower attracts capital at 13.5%. Just like my friends and relatives I give them interest free loans they can't pay wont pay so I refuse to lend them cash they end up at the shylock and pawning their furniture at 50% interest. Ask the Youth fund how many guys repay the 8% loans or HELB loans. here you conveniently ignore my analogy. This low quality borrower would not qualify even for the 25% loan. If indeed he has been qualifying for it, then there is no reason to deny him a 14% loan since nothing has changed other than a Goverment directive. His capacity to repay has not changed. The only change is a goverment directive. Why deny him a loan at 14%. Encouraging people to buy, hoard and sell plots on 25% interest loans? How does this help the economy? Why dont we also encourage them to buy , hoard and sell maize to the highest bidder? Refer to my earlier commentShares? Buying shares on loan? Is this a business? Can a bank loan money to such a business? Yes banks were lending like crazy for the Safaricom IPO. Such were the good times How many people got burned by this ipo and others? How did their getting burned improve their livelihood or the economy? A few people made cash but overall many got burned. In any case, those who successfully borrowed had another source of income to service the loan. Therefore my question remains, If the bank can give me a loan at 25% for a risky venture because I have an alternate source of income, why not give me the same loan at 14% as long as my ability to pay has not changed? 25% interest encourages banks to loan to sectors/ individuals they should not be loaning money to in the first place. Secondly, it denies real business people, in manufacturing, agric, technology, construction, the money they need to grow as they are forced to compete for credit with conspicuos consumers. In the market it's willing buyer willing seller. 25% circulates cash in the economy, 14% only the govt and prime borrowers get credit. The consumer who would have bought the mitumba car foregoes consumption, and without his usual side hussles he consumes less goods and services then next nakumatt is not doing well, deacons is not doing well etc.Good point, I accept. However, to get even more money circulating in an economically beneficial manner, would it not be better to loan to good borrowers who will put that money to good use to generate jobs and even more money. This idea of willing buyer willing seller is another myth circulated by 'western economists'. Goverment control is always present, whether you see it or not. Goverment has a hand in pricing of all commodities sold in this country. Just because it chooses to show its hand more forcefully in the matter of bank loans is no reason to shout about controlling markets. how come nobody is complaining about free market when it comes to 90 bob maize? These theories apply when an economy has satisfied basic things like employment, food security etc etc. For as long as we have unemployment, money should go to industries capable of creating employment in multiples or commensurate with capital invested. Putting much needed cash in trade of mitumba and buying imported crisps, while local industries cannot expand for lack of the same capital is not wise. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 13,503 Location: nairobi
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actuarywahisa wrote:Ericsson wrote:Yaani people have time to respond to tom_boy All the best What makes tom_boy mad? Ama you'll classify me as mad as well for asking that? First, Economic theory is not a science! Secondly, why shouldn't someone respond if they are willing and have the time? I though this is a discussion forum and knowledge sharing is the spirit of Wazua. Watch out not to fall from that horse. @tomboy raises valid but unrealistic points in Kenya's circumstances.. He must have lived abroad. Fact is that the economy started falling sick under 24 years plus of economic misrule, Mwai Kibaki took us out of the ICU and we were almost discharged, but then 2007 happened, we thus remained in the ward, but in the last four years we have ended up in the HDU.. Corruption and bad policy will ensure that very few citizens in Kenya will ever get to drive a brand new car. Also note that land across the world is classified as an appreciating asset.. Indeed better use of the same should be encouraged but comparing land to maize simply leaves me speechless HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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obiero wrote:actuarywahisa wrote:Ericsson wrote:Yaani people have time to respond to tom_boy All the best What makes tom_boy mad? Ama you'll classify me as mad as well for asking that? First, Economic theory is not a science! Secondly, why shouldn't someone respond if they are willing and have the time? I though this is a discussion forum and knowledge sharing is the spirit of Wazua. Watch out not to fall from that horse. @tomboy raises valid but unrealistic points in Kenya's circumstances.. He must have lived abroad. Fact is that the economy started falling sick under 24 years plus of economic misrule, Mwai Kibaki took us out of the ICU and we were almost discharged, but then 2007 happened, we thus remained in the ward, but in the last four years we have ended up in the HDU.. Corruption and bad policy will ensure that very few citizens in Kenya will ever get to drive a brand new car. Also note that land across the world is classified as an appreciating asset.. Indeed better use of the same should be encouraged but comparing land to maize simply leaves me speechless Vindicated at last. My points are valid = sound river road economic theorem, BUT unrealistic. Unrealistic why? There is nothing wrong with a little slowdown in the wrong areas of the economy. If only banks would wake up and lend responsibly, which they will eventually. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/27/2015 Posts: 138 Location: Harare
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lochaz-index wrote:Scbk and bbk have been easing into it. Not sure whether they have fully complied though. None has done it yet. Though technically they should start ideally disclose impact starting HY 2017. Stanchart and Barclays have the additional burden of BCBS 239 this year since their parent companies in the list of systemically important banks. https://en.wikipedia.org...mically_important_banks
http://www.bis.org/bcbs/publ/d399.pdfInvestment philosophy development in progress...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 10,683 Location: NAIROBI
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Kenya's Treasury sets up a team to analyze the Impact of the Interest Rate Caps with a view of reviewing the law in next parliament Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 13,503 Location: nairobi
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Ericsson wrote:Kenya's Treasury sets up a team to analyze the Impact of the Interest Rate Caps with a view of reviewing the law in next parliament This is not news. Dog bites man HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/14/2010 Posts: 806 Location: Nairobi
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Its amazing how government has ignored the voice of experts, International financial institutions, its own treasury mandarins, the real devastating effects across the banking system and the economy...is it possible that the only voice they will listen to is that of bandits? After all isnt this a 'bandit' economy?
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Rank: Member Joined: 7/8/2013 Posts: 126
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Ruto alisema hakuna law itakuwa reviewed. they should forget. The govt should just reduce its appetite for domestic borrowing and these banks will have enough money to lend. In fact the law should be reviewed to ensure that all interest, cost of loan, insurance, etc dont add up to more than 14%
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 10,683 Location: NAIROBI
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omhangla wrote:Ruto alisema hakuna law itakuwa reviewed. they should forget. The govt should just reduce its appetite for domestic borrowing and these banks will have enough money to lend. In fact the law should be reviewed to ensure that all interest, cost of loan, insurance, etc dont add up to more than 14% You believe and follow what Ruto says. Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
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Rank: Member Joined: 7/8/2013 Posts: 126
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I dont believe Ruto, but I also dont trust the banks. Kenyans will adjust. These banks have proved that they cannot operate in an environment of self regulation
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 13,503 Location: nairobi
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winston wrote:Its amazing how government has ignored the voice of experts, International financial institutions, its own treasury mandarins, the real devastating effects across the banking system and the economy...is it possible that the only voice they will listen to is that of bandits? After all isnt this a 'bandit' economy? Dereva ni mlevi na makanga ni mwizi. Gari inakimbizwa na haina brakes. What do you expect HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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@Tomboy, you are mixing Macro and Micro economics, thats why everyone is laughing at you. Think of it like this; Micro - Individual, ego, expect 45million answers to any question in Kenya because there are 45 million of us. I can buy a plot, or a mitumba car, or nyama choma and beer etc. Its none of your business as its my choice. In real sense, money is not wasted because as I waste the money, another individual is making profits. End result, no loss to the economy beyond the BOP in the case of imports (But lets leave international trade for now). Infact, it leads to economic growth resulting from the velocity of money (how many times a shilling changes hands in 1 hour, minute, day, second etc) Macro - Govt, state,read policy, the hidden hand that influences the actions of individuals. This is the bit thats not working for us as a country and will not work as long as we have politicians as leaders. We can do very little as individuals to change the macro economic policy in the shortrun. In the long run the only weapon we have is our single vote. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/14/2010 Posts: 806 Location: Nairobi
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obiero wrote:winston wrote:Its amazing how government has ignored the voice of experts, International financial institutions, its own treasury mandarins, the real devastating effects across the banking system and the economy...is it possible that the only voice they will listen to is that of bandits? After all isnt this a 'bandit' economy? Dereva ni mlevi na makanga ni mwizi. Gari inakimbizwa na haina brakes. What do you expect Wah!
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/6/2015 Posts: 249 Location: Nairobi
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winston wrote:obiero wrote:winston wrote:Its amazing how government has ignored the voice of experts, International financial institutions, its own treasury mandarins, the real devastating effects across the banking system and the economy...is it possible that the only voice they will listen to is that of bandits? After all isnt this a 'bandit' economy? Dereva ni mlevi na makanga ni mwizi. Gari inakimbizwa na haina brakes. What do you expect Wah! jesu Never lose your position in a bull market,BTFD.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/29/2011 Posts: 2,242
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mamilli wrote:winston wrote:obiero wrote:winston wrote:Its amazing how government has ignored the voice of experts, International financial institutions, its own treasury mandarins, the real devastating effects across the banking system and the economy...is it possible that the only voice they will listen to is that of bandits? After all isnt this a 'bandit' economy? Dereva ni mlevi na makanga ni mwizi. Gari inakimbizwa na haina brakes. What do you expect Wah! jesu And passengers are scrambling to board the vehicle to the uncertain destination "Things that matter most must never be at the mercy of things that matter least." Goethe
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/18/2008 Posts: 3,434 Location: Kerugoya
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:@Tomboy, you are mixing Macro and Micro economics, thats why everyone is laughing at you.
Think of it like this;
Micro - Individual, ego, expect 45million answers to any question in Kenya because there are 45 million of us. I can buy a plot, or a mitumba car, or nyama choma and beer etc. Its none of your business as its my choice. In real sense, money is not wasted because as I waste the money, another individual is making profits. End result, no loss to the economy beyond the BOP in the case of imports (But lets leave international trade for now). Infact, it leads to economic growth resulting from the velocity of money (how many times a shilling changes hands in 1 hour, minute, day, second etc) Macro - Govt, state,read policy, the hidden hand that influences the actions of individuals. This is the bit thats not working for us as a country and will not work as long as we have politicians as leaders. We can do very little as individuals to change the macro economic policy in the shortrun. In the long run the only weapon we have is our single vote. sasa wewe unaleta kazi kwa mchezo. You could, at least, have waited until after the erections, when some form of sanity returns to the Republic of Kenia and the Virtual Republic of Wazua.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:@Tomboy, you are mixing Macro and Micro economics, thats why everyone is laughing at you.
Think of it like this;
Micro - Individual, ego, expect 45million answers to any question in Kenya because there are 45 million of us. I can buy a plot, or a mitumba car, or nyama choma and beer etc. Its none of your business as its my choice. In real sense, money is not wasted because as I waste the money, another individual is making profits. End result, no loss to the economy beyond the BOP in the case of imports (But lets leave international trade for now). Infact, it leads to economic growth resulting from the velocity of money (how many times a shilling changes hands in 1 hour, minute, day, second etc) Macro - Govt, state,read policy, the hidden hand that influences the actions of individuals. This is the bit thats not working for us as a country and will not work as long as we have politicians as leaders. We can do very little as individuals to change the macro economic policy in the shortrun. In the long run the only weapon we have is our single vote. Dear Obi, this is the other myth propagated by our dear ' western economists'. To even imagine that micro and macro economics are two seperate entities is to confirm that the books our ' western economists' are reading have succeeded in brainwashing our thinking and seriously impaired our ability to interprete written matter into reality. That division of micro and macro is purely for teaching purposes but in reality micro feeds into macro and vice versa. Picture the micro situation of individuals buying mitumba cars. Multiply this one guy x 1million ( hypothetical). Suddenly,the country needs several million dollars to buy mitumba cars, several million to buy spare parts, and fuel ( half of it wasted in traffic jam). Then we hear, oh, dollar demand has gone up. Shilling depreciating. No dollars to pay loans and buy fuel. Simplistic example but illustrates my point. Viceversa applies. Govt regulates micro economy by putting in place policies at macro economic level. The two cannot be seperated. They should actually be taught as a mixed bag. That is the reality. Keep laughing ' western economists' but its the truth. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/13/2015 Posts: 1,589
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aemathenge wrote:wukan wrote:There is nothing new under the sun. These usury laws were used in US in the 1970's Come again? I missed your comment. You can read more from Alan Greenspan himself on why they had to de-regulate banking laws to avail credit to all income groups
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