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Law Capping interest rates
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/18/2008 Posts: 3,434 Location: Kerugoya
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wukan wrote:There is nothing new under the sun. These usury laws were used in US in the 1970's Come again?
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/27/2015 Posts: 138 Location: Harare
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If and when Kenyan banks return to the era of making super-normal profits it will be after 2019. 2017 - interest caps 2018 - IFRS 9 impact 2019 - upgrade of IT systems/recapitalization https://www.euromoney.co...osive-effects-of-ifrs-9
http://www.moodysanalyti...impact-banks-informationInvestment philosophy development in progress...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 13,503 Location: nairobi
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[quote=alotoftalk] If and when Kenyan banks return to the era of making super-normal profits it will be after 2019. 2017 - interest caps 2018 - IFRS 9 impact 2019 - upgrade of IT systems/recapitalization https://www.euromoney.co...osive-effects-of-ifrs-9
http://www.moodysanalyti...mpact-banks-information[/quote] Will IFRS 9 really find a ready home in this country. Regardless, Kenyan financial counters are in a tight bind. I'm out until further notice HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 13,503 Location: nairobi
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obiero wrote:Gatheuzi wrote:obiero wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:obiero wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:KNM wrote:Capping in a free market...LOL. Just as was predicted, small banks folding up with accompanying job losses. It would be laughable were it not so sad. Which smaller banks have folded? What I see is more of; 1. investors who went into banking for short term gains selling and leaving 2. And banks with poor management and inefficiencies (like NBK) suffering because they are unable to transfer their inefficiencies to poor borrowers through expensive high interest loans Where have you been dude? Giro, Habib.. The Giro;I&M Deal started may be 2 years before interest rate capping was done and if I am right also concluded before the capping. Habib Bank also sold out in principle before capping. If you dig deeper, you will realise that for both these banks, the owners wanted to make their investments more liquid by merging with listed banks, i.e I&M and DTB. @Obiero, you spend alot of time in the investment section, the least you could do is research more so you write facts. It does not matter when the negotiation started.. Times are hard. Even Barclays now joins in the party https://www.standardmedi...off-hundreds-of-workers The main reason given by Barclays for reasulting to lay off was customer preferences shifting to use of mobile and online banking. That is what has lead to redundancy in a large part. But as usual the author goes further to add rate capping comments at the end. @Gatheuzi do you believe them.. Firing 150 staff only due to technological development.. I personally think that it is an excuse. ICT would have taken down the staff count by higher numbers @standard chartered to exit several towns http://www.businessdaily...009168-g3hlay/index.html HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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wukan wrote:tom_boy wrote:quicksand wrote:Ericsson wrote:Interest rates cap was for government to borrow money cheaply in the domestic market
There is no indicator that had the interest rates remained unregulated, the government would have borrowed less. With no ceiling, rates would have started climbing to the mid-twenties because of irresponsible government borrowing, just like the Cheserem days when TBills hit an eye-watering return rate of 31%. The government was a simple money minting machine for banks back then. The net effect would have been businesses getting starved of credit anyway. If the government does not stay the course and reverses the law, it will all have been pointless. Now, Rotich needs to put his thinking cap on and finds another source of money to plug holes and reduce reliability on expensive domestic credit, we need a fiscal disciplinarian, wield a big club and smash heads if a whiff of waste is detected at ministries,..counties...and the good doctor at Central starts squeezing bankster balls. The Trifecta. Now is not the time to relent, it is time to disembowel and exsanguinate large scale usury and predatory practices in our financial system once and for all, even if it causes us some temporary pain. We survived 24 years of Moi for God's sake. My sentiments exactly. And if M-akiba bond - Pesa link channels are exploited well by Gok, banks will start wailing all over again. Then they will dry their tears and realise they should just get to work and lend responsibly, utilise a working CRB etc etc. River road economics at its best There is nothing new under the sun. These usury laws were used in US in the 1970's and we ended up with prime(whites) and sub-prime borrowers(blacks and other minorities). Banks still made money and super-profits the people who suffered are the sub-prime borrowers most ended up in urban ghettos and minimum wage employment. If you think 3% credit growth will guarantee your kids employment in this economy in the next 5 years then it's fine. Paraphrasing Kibaki, tuendelee na style hiyo hiyo Let me advance my River road economic theory a bit further. Other than our ' western economists' spelling doom and gloom for banks and the economy due to rate caps, I fail to see how rate caps can be bad for the the middle class, if indeed middle class drive this economy. Lack of access to loans by middle class means less purchasing of imported, useless luxury, consumption items. How can this be bad for the economy? It means less buying of useless pieces of land to hold for x years and sell to the next sucker that comes along. Means less land price inflation. How can this be bad for Kenya? It means less building of mansions in remote places on loan and spending in ordinate amounts of fuel and time getting to and from work while struggling to pay off your loan. How is this bad on a macro economic scale? It means better planned and executed businesses with proper records and a growth plan , eager to build a credit history and maintain a good credit rating so as to attract cheap bank credit. It means no more bank funded side hussles like taxi business on loan from an unsecured salary loan. Businesses that inevitably fail or remain mediocre at best despite rosy initial projection. Any seasoned entreprenuer will tell you that you dont need loads of cash to succeed. Infact, too much cash at the beginning will be your down fall. My river road economic theory is based on above observations. In my view, a bit of starvation and dieting from credit, useless credit that does not help a business grow, is a good thing. I am still waiting for the example of a 35% return business that woul qualify for a well regulated bank loan. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/26/2007 Posts: 6,514
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What middle class....it was a lie! Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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tom_boy wrote:
Let me advance my River road economic theory a bit further.
Other than our ' western economists' spelling doom and gloom for banks and the economy due to rate caps, I fail to see how rate caps can be bad for the the middle class, if indeed middle class drive this economy.
Lack of access to loans by middle class means less purchasing of imported, useless luxury, consumption items. How can this be bad for the economy?
It means less buying of useless pieces of land to hold for x years and sell to the next sucker that comes along. Means less land price inflation. How can this be bad for Kenya?
It means less building of mansions in remote places on loan and spending in ordinate amounts of fuel and time getting to and from work while struggling to pay off your loan. How is this bad on a macro economic scale?
It means better planned and executed businesses with proper records and a growth plan , eager to build a credit history and maintain a good credit rating so as to attract cheap bank credit.
It means no more bank funded side hussles like taxi business on loan from an unsecured salary loan. Businesses that inevitably fail or remain mediocre at best despite rosy initial projection.
Any seasoned entreprenuer will tell you that you dont need loads of cash to succeed. Infact, too much cash at the beginning will be your down fall.
My river road economic theory is based on above observations. In my view, a bit of starvation and dieting from credit, useless credit that does not help a business grow, is a good thing.
I am still waiting for the example of a 35% return business that woul qualify for a well regulated bank loan.
Are you for real! Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/18/2008 Posts: 3,434 Location: Kerugoya
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Ngalaka wrote:tom_boy wrote: Let me advance my River road economic theory a bit further.
Other than our ' western economists' spelling doom and gloom for banks and the economy due to rate caps, I fail to see how rate caps can be bad for the the middle class, if indeed middle class drive this economy.
Lack of access to loans by middle class means less purchasing of imported, useless luxury, consumption items. How can this be bad for the economy?
It means less buying of useless pieces of land to hold for x years and sell to the next sucker that comes along. Means less land price inflation. How can this be bad for Kenya?
It means less building of mansions in remote places on loan and spending in ordinate amounts of fuel and time getting to and from work while struggling to pay off your loan. How is this bad on a macro economic scale?
It means better planned and executed businesses with proper records and a growth plan , eager to build a credit history and maintain a good credit rating so as to attract cheap bank credit.
It means no more bank funded side hussles like taxi business on loan from an unsecured salary loan. Businesses that inevitably fail or remain mediocre at best despite rosy initial projection.
Any seasoned entreprenuer will tell you that you dont need loads of cash to succeed. Infact, too much cash at the beginning will be your down fall.
My river road economic theory is based on above observations. In my view, a bit of starvation and dieting from credit, useless credit that does not help a business grow, is a good thing.
I am still waiting for the example of a 35% return business that woul qualify for a well regulated bank loan.
Are you for real! Its the silly season over at the Greens @Ngalaka Some of us need the free entertainment this chap is providing.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/13/2015 Posts: 1,589
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Ngalaka wrote:tom_boy wrote:Let me advance my River road economic theory a bit further. Other than our ' western economists' spelling doom and gloom for banks and the economy due to rate caps, I fail to see how rate caps can be bad for the the middle class, if indeed middle class drive this economy. We have a middle class that cannot afford 150/- unga so now we have subsidized unga at 90/-. But carry on Lack of access to loans by middle class means less purchasing of imported, useless luxury, consumption items. How can this be bad for the economy? You do realize by economics we simply mean what ordinary folks do to improve their welfare i.e. standard of living by being productive. If there is demand for useless luxury items then someone has to supply It means less buying of useless pieces of land to hold for x years and sell to the next sucker that comes along. Means less land price inflation. How can this be bad for Kenya? Isn't the market rewarding the person who took the risk to hold that useless piece of land for x years who then sells and improves his living standard. Isn't that person important in the economy for taking that risk of holding useless pieces of land. You do know land transactions support a whole chain of people lawyers, valuers, brokers etc.It means less building of mansions in remote places on loan and spending in ordinate amounts of fuel and time getting to and from work while struggling to pay off your loan. How is this bad on a macro economic scale? You think the fundis building those mansions don't need employment. Does it mean the person who built that mansion will now afford land near the city?It means better planned and executed businesses with proper records and a growth plan , eager to build a credit history and maintain a good credit rating so as to attract cheap bank credit. If your customers can't afford your goods and services in cash or on credit(collapse of purchasing power) your meticulous business plan will not survive first contact with the market.It means no more bank funded side hussles like taxi business on loan from an unsecured salary loan. Businesses that inevitably fail or remain mediocre at best despite rosy initial projection. Aren't those side hussles responding to consumer demand and isn't the economy the sum total of all those exchanges of goods and services. The only issue is no bank worth it's name will risk it's capital and deposits to fund such a venture at 14% interest. At 23% interest those side 'hussles' were breaking even and thriving Any seasoned entreprenuer will tell you that you dont need loads of cash to succeed. Infact, too much cash at the beginning will be your down fall. You're kidding right? My river road economic theory is based on above observations. In my view, a bit of starvation and dieting from credit, useless credit that does not help a business grow, is a good thing. This is terrible theory but from the comments on this thread actually this is economic thinking ruling this time. How about we starve the govt it doesn't need all the useless credit it's taking. I am still waiting for the example of a 35% return business that woul qualify for a well regulated bank loan. Are you for real!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 10,683 Location: NAIROBI
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Yaani people have time to respond to tom_boy All the best Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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wukan wrote:Ngalaka wrote:tom_boy wrote:Let me advance my River road economic theory a bit further. Other than our ' western economists' spelling doom and gloom for banks and the economy due to rate caps, I fail to see how rate caps can be bad for the the middle class, if indeed middle class drive this economy. We have a middle class that cannot afford 150/- unga so now we have subsidized unga at 90/-. But carry on Lack of access to loans by middle class means less purchasing of imported, useless luxury, consumption items. How can this be bad for the economy? You do realize by economics we simply mean what ordinary folks do to improve their welfare i.e. standard of living by being productive. If there is demand for useless luxury items then someone has to supply It means less buying of useless pieces of land to hold for x years and sell to the next sucker that comes along. Means less land price inflation. How can this be bad for Kenya? Isn't the market rewarding the person who took the risk to hold that useless piece of land for x years who then sells and improves his living standard. Isn't that person important in the economy for taking that risk of holding useless pieces of land. You do know land transactions support a whole chain of people lawyers, valuers, brokers etc.It means less building of mansions in remote places on loan and spending in ordinate amounts of fuel and time getting to and from work while struggling to pay off your loan. How is this bad on a macro economic scale? You think the fundis building those mansions don't need employment. Does it mean the person who built that mansion will now afford land near the city?It means better planned and executed businesses with proper records and a growth plan , eager to build a credit history and maintain a good credit rating so as to attract cheap bank credit. If your customers can't afford your goods and services in cash or on credit(collapse of purchasing power) your meticulous business plan will not survive first contact with the market.It means no more bank funded side hussles like taxi business on loan from an unsecured salary loan. Businesses that inevitably fail or remain mediocre at best despite rosy initial projection. Aren't those side hussles responding to consumer demand and isn't the economy the sum total of all those exchanges of goods and services. The only issue is no bank worth it's name will risk it's capital and deposits to fund such a venture at 14% interest. At 23% interest those side 'hussles' were breaking even and thriving Any seasoned entreprenuer will tell you that you dont need loads of cash to succeed. Infact, too much cash at the beginning will be your down fall. You're kidding right? My river road economic theory is based on above observations. In my view, a bit of starvation and dieting from credit, useless credit that does not help a business grow, is a good thing. This is terrible theory but from the comments on this thread actually this is economic thinking ruling this time. How about we starve the govt it doesn't need all the useless credit it's taking. I am still waiting for the example of a 35% return business that woul qualify for a well regulated bank loan. Are you for real! Obviously you guys dont get it. The things I call useless are things that dont build real wealth for this country. You mention lawyers, brokers etc in land transactions. It is precisely because of such thinking that our economy is so skewed. We have lawyers, accountants being so wealthy rather than have real business that creates and distributes wealth preferably in manufacturing, agriculture. Just because a guy cannot build 70km from nairobi on loan, does not mean construction will cease. Chances are, the money that would have been used to pay usurious interest will end up in a fund somewhere, either in the bank, insurance or coop. This money will still find its way to real estate without the hyper inflation in land prices. The problem with these ' westetn economists' is they have read many books but fail to translate it to reality. Wanjiku has never benefitted much from bank loans. Mind you, I said benefitted. Not that they did not used to get the loan but the loans were seldom useful in creating wealth for the individual due to high interest. Large corporates are not affected. Their rates were preferential anyway. Kenyan Middle class, whatever your definition are the ones who take loans for side hussles, land, building, tenders etc. That is the bulk of loans. Very few go to serious businesses and those serious businesses cannot survive at 25% interest. These are facts. Keep laughing. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/21/2014 Posts: 184
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Ericsson wrote:Yaani people have time to respond to tom_boy All the best What makes tom_boy mad? Ama you'll classify me as mad as well for asking that? First, Economic theory is not a science! Secondly, why shouldn't someone respond if they are willing and have the time? I though this is a discussion forum and knowledge sharing is the spirit of Wazua. Watch out not to fall from that horse. There are too many opportunities all around. Open your eyes and maybe you'll spot one
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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wukan wrote:Ngalaka wrote:tom_boy wrote:Let me advance my River road economic theory a bit further. Other than our ' western economists' spelling doom and gloom for banks and the economy due to rate caps, I fail to see how rate caps can be bad for the the middle class, if indeed middle class drive this economy. We have a middle class that cannot afford 150/- unga so now we have subsidized unga at 90/-. But carry on Lack of access to loans by middle class means less purchasing of imported, useless luxury, consumption items. How can this be bad for the economy? You do realize by economics we simply mean what ordinary folks do to improve their welfare i.e. standard of living by being productive. If there is demand for useless luxury items then someone has to supply if all we are purchasing is imported junk, how does this translate to growth of our economy. How does getting a loan to import mitumba increase the country's productivity.It means less buying of useless pieces of land to hold for x years and sell to the next sucker that comes along. Means less land price inflation. How can this be bad for Kenya? Isn't the market rewarding the person who took the risk to hold that useless piece of land for x years who then sells and improves his living standard. Isn't that person important in the economy for taking that risk of holding useless pieces of land. You do know land transactions support a whole chain of people lawyers, valuers, brokers etc. this thinking right there is what is wrong with ' western economist'. How does hoarding land, just because you can, translate to overall social good. Why is it evil to hoard unga so as to sell at a higher price later, but perfectly all right to hoard land and we call this economic freedom. Land is a limited resource. It should be managed to produce maximum return for the country. It means less building of mansions in remote places on loan and spending in ordinate amounts of fuel and time getting to and from work while struggling to pay off your loan. How is this bad on a macro economic scale? You think the fundis building those mansions don't need employment. Does it mean the person who built that mansion will now afford land near the city? people will be more inclined to pool resources and build. Construction will go on.It means better planned and executed businesses with proper records and a growth plan , eager to build a credit history and maintain a good credit rating so as to attract cheap bank credit. If your customers can't afford your goods and services in cash or on credit(collapse of purchasing power) your meticulous business plan will not survive first contact with the market. I will not even respond to this.It means no more bank funded side hussles like taxi business on loan from an unsecured salary loan. Businesses that inevitably fail or remain mediocre at best despite rosy initial projection. Aren't those side hussles responding to consumer demand and isn't the economy the sum total of all those exchanges of goods and services. The only issue is no bank worth it's name will risk it's capital and deposits to fund such a venture at 14% interest. At 23% interest those side 'hussles' were breaking even and thriving talked like a true theory person. Which side hussle can survive when started on a 25% interest loan. Wacha siasa bwana. Lets be practical. Hata matatu haiwezi.Any seasoned entreprenuer will tell you that you dont need loads of cash to succeed. Infact, too much cash at the beginning will be your down fall. You're kidding right? no I am not .My river road economic theory is based on above observations. In my view, a bit of starvation and dieting from credit, useless credit that does not help a business grow, is a good thing. This is terrible theory but from the comments on this thread actually this is economic thinking ruling this time. How about we starve the govt it doesn't need all the useless credit it's taking. I am still waiting for the example of a 35% return business that woul qualify for a well regulated bank loan. Are you for real! They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/13/2015 Posts: 1,589
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Ericsson wrote:Yaani people have time to respond to tom_boy All the best Actually engaging tom_boy is much more fun than discussing IEBC registers. I like his wanjiku type thinking he makes a good economics student. I'm testing theories here
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/13/2015 Posts: 1,589
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@tom_boy you do realize that 3m loan at 25% for 1 year will only cost you just 421K in interest. If you import Japanese mitumba cars, buy and sell maize, buy and sell plots, trade shares you can still make a small margin and repay the loan. If you don't have that credit at 14% then does that not limit your economic activities.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 6/27/2016 Posts: 11 Location: Nairobi
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My River road theory understanding, banks have made it just a little bit difficult to access credit to people and businesses, slowing down growth and consumption that was being fueled by credit, this might be good to a certain extent but it will also affect adversely growth and sustainability of well managed businesses that were doing biashara with the likes of akina Nakumatt,Uchumi,Maina wa WIre etc. You can say after this there will be many failed businesses, relationships,chamas and mama mboga stall who have sold on credit to this household. Its just but a wait and see
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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wukan wrote:@tom_boy you do realize that 3m loan at 25% for 1 year will only cost you just 421K in interest. If you import Japanese mitumba cars, buy and sell maize, buy and sell plots, trade shares you can still make a small margin and repay the loan. If you don't have that credit at 14% then does that not limit your economic activities. Very good, now we are getting somewhere. So, is it your position that giving people loans to buy mitumba cars and sell to others ( on loan) is a sound way to grow the economy? Do you realise the opportunity cost is that businesses ( manufacturing, agric, tourism) that need 14% loans are denied a facility in favour of 25% mitumba dealer. How does this grow the economy? Which bank has ever given a loan, even at that 25%, to a broker whose MAIN job is agricultural commodities. No other stable income source to service the loan. My point, this broker, without a salary, but able to access 25% loan to buy and sell maize, is a figment of the imagination of ' western economic theorists'. Assuming this guy has another regular income and was able to service a 25% loan in the past, why deny him a 14% loan to continue with his business? How has the risk changed? If he did not default at 25%, why should he default at 14% thus justify denying him the facility. Encouraging people to buy, hoard and sell plots on 25% interest loans? How does this help the economy? Why dont we also encourage them to buy , hoard and sell maize to the highest bidder? Shares? Buying shares on loan? Is this a business? Can a bank loan money to such a business? 25% interest encourages banks to loan to sectors/ individuals they should not be loaning money to in the first place. Secondly, it denies real business people, in manufacturing, agric, technology, construction, the money they need to grow as they are forced to compete for credit with conspicuos consumers. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/13/2015 Posts: 1,589
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tom_boy wrote:wukan wrote:@tom_boy you do realize that 3m loan at 25% for 1 year will only cost you just 421K in interest. If you import Japanese mitumba cars, buy and sell maize, buy and sell plots, trade shares you can still make a small margin and repay the loan. If you don't have that credit at 14% then does that not limit your economic activities. Very good, now we are getting somewhere. No we are not because you want to control the marketsSo, is it your position that giving people loans to buy mitumba cars and sell to others ( on loan) is a sound way to grow the economy? Do you realise the opportunity cost is that businesses ( manufacturing, agric, tourism) that need 14% loans are denied a facility in favour of 25% mitumba dealer. How does this grow the economy? Satisfying Consumer demand to improve lifestyle that's how the economy grows. Mitumba cars sell like hot cake especially with young upwardly mobile 24 year olds. The cars consume fuel as they go to Naivasha to revel and helps tourism too. KRA gets duty, KPA staff, broker at the port gets a salary plus the prisoner making the number plates, the insurance guy, Omosh the mechanic etc. Which bank has ever given a loan, even at that 25%, to a broker whose MAIN job is agricultural commodities. No other stable income source to service the loan. My point, this broker, without a salary, but able to access 25% loan to buy and sell maize, is a figment of the imagination of ' western economic theorists'. Assuming this guy has another regular income and was able to service a 25% loan in the past, why deny him a 14% loan to continue with his business? How has the risk changed? If he did not default at 25%, why should he default at 14% thus justify denying him the facility. In a credit crunch there is a flight to quality borrowers. That guy is low quality borrower, he is the last in line he can only attract capital at 25% because govt a prime borrower attracts capital at 13.5%. Just like my friends and relatives I give them interest free loans they can't pay wont pay so I refuse to lend them cash they end up at the shylock and pawning their furniture at 50% interest. Ask the Youth fund how many guys repay the 8% loans or HELB loans. Encouraging people to buy, hoard and sell plots on 25% interest loans? How does this help the economy? Why dont we also encourage them to buy , hoard and sell maize to the highest bidder? Refer to my earlier commentShares? Buying shares on loan? Is this a business? Can a bank loan money to such a business? Yes banks were lending like crazy for the Safaricom IPO. Such were the good times 25% interest encourages banks to loan to sectors/ individuals they should not be loaning money to in the first place. Secondly, it denies real business people, in manufacturing, agric, technology, construction, the money they need to grow as they are forced to compete for credit with conspicuos consumers. In the market it's willing buyer willing seller. 25% circulates cash in the economy, 14% only the govt and prime borrowers get credit. The consumer who would have bought the mitumba car foregoes consumption, and without his usual side hussles he consumes less goods and services then next nakumatt is not doing well, deacons is not doing well etc.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/18/2008 Posts: 3,434 Location: Kerugoya
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It feels great to really laugh out loud. I have no had this much fun in a long while.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/18/2014 Posts: 1,127
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Agreed. With the macros/economy on a southwards trajectory the impact of those changes will be all the more accentuated. The economy will take some time to mend as will the banks' balance sheets and earnings. The main purpose of the stock market is to make fools of as many people as possible.
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