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Cytonn Investments
Gakware
#381 Posted : Thursday, May 18, 2017 2:56:59 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 2/9/2017
Posts: 49
grahamsdisciple wrote:
kaka2za wrote:
Swenani wrote:
grahamsdisciple wrote:
Horton wrote:
Swenani wrote:
grahamsdisciple wrote:
anika66 wrote:
enyands wrote:
sparkly wrote:
eco wrote:
The growth of Cytonn Investments within the past one year is phenomenal. This is a company to watch for long-term private equity investors like myself. I am on-board!


They are very aggressive. Edwin, Arora, Liz seem to know their stuff.


What I like about them is that there is a legal contract between the two of you guys, ..unlike FEP,unaitas and others where there is no such.downside is the minimum deposit .they want 1 million minimum deposit. Is there anyone who has experience with these guys

I lost some 500,000 investment in Homeafrika. Any company that comes with alot media hype is a no go for me. Too much money is spent in attracting new business. Very aggressive marketing strategies. No way.



Tick tock, this thing will crash watch this space. Anyone seen FY 2016 financials? Shocking what they're doing. Not a single complete project and they're accounting for them as "Investment property" and booking capital gains. Also, 90%+ of their assets is this investment property and yet their key products are cash management solutions i.e. short term.


Ignorance galore


Another paid advertisment by the competitors. So they have completed Amara Ridge and regarding CMS, as my friend Swenani says, ignorance galore.....😁

If u dont have anything to say, dont say it here



https://www.cytonn.com/d..._Audited_Financials.pdf


Check financials. I thought this was a forum for open debate and discussion. If you have a point, then correct my logic using facts rather than calling me ignorant or saying that I have nothing to say. I though Wazua was one of the few forums where people actually exchange ideas. Review financials, check balance sheet, read notes 4 - 30.


1. CMS is not the key product for Cytonn
2. How would you like them to account for the property they have bought and developing if not as investment property?
3. How would you like them to account for the gain in their properties they are developing?


CMS is used as source of funds. It's equivalent to borrowing.




True, thanks for the fact-based rebuttal. Indeed IAS 40 allows for ongoing construction projects to be accounted for as investment property if in future they will be used as investment property i.e. land held for long-term capital appreciation, land held for a currently undetermined future use, building leased out under an operating lease, vacant building held to be leased out under an operating lease. If the properties are to be sold then they should be accounted for as Inventory with no fair value gains. I think Cytonn are building to sell so the latter should apply with no fair value gains accruing to the company. Am I wrong or ignorant here??? Please check my logic and I'll accept if I'm wrong.


Secondly, the point on CMS is, how are they raising their liquidity. If I'm not wrong (and again correct me if I'm wrong cause that's what Wazua is there for), they are offering high yielding cash products (isn't that CMS). If CMS wasn't a product, why is it accounted for as a liability?

So if a company is raising cash through high yielding cash products and constructing to sell whilst booking fair value gains, doesn't that raise a couple of red flags?


This is true kapsaa, also note that the fair value gains are even more than actual revenue! I wonder how they stay afloat. I'm not sure about CMS being a sort of a loan because clients' funds are kept by a custodian bank so not easily accessible, otherwise it could quickly revert to a pyramid scheme. These rosy numbers in my opinion are hot air!!!!!!!!!d'oh! d'oh!
The past is the past, you either run from it or learn from it!
nyakosh
#382 Posted : Friday, May 26, 2017 12:22:37 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 8/14/2013
Posts: 13
Location: Copenhagen
CMS is not their KPI but rather designed primarily to tap in diaspora market. These are the guys who came up with this CMS idea when they were still in Britam.
Problems can be very complicated, solutions cannot be.
Mike Ock
#383 Posted : Friday, May 26, 2017 3:06:08 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/22/2015
Posts: 461
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.
quicksand
#384 Posted : Friday, May 26, 2017 3:30:23 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 1,838
Location: Nairobi
Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.


Ngoja Cytonn defender-in-chief @Horton aone hii.... Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Chaka
#385 Posted : Friday, May 26, 2017 4:11:18 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/16/2007
Posts: 1,807
So,if this is the case funds for new investors would be used to pay maturing CMS investments!!?

Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.

Horton
#386 Posted : Friday, May 26, 2017 5:28:48 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 978
Location: Nairobi
quicksand wrote:
Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.


Ngoja Cytonn defender-in-chief @Horton aone hii.... Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly



@quicksand 😁😁

@M-ock so u reckon 20% pa is a great feat? Really? i am sure alot of wazuans average way above a 20% return pa. Wacha conspiracy theories. 20% pa returns is actually mediocre to a serious investor
Chaka
#387 Posted : Friday, May 26, 2017 6:49:10 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/16/2007
Posts: 1,807
Can the below wazuans start a WhatsApp group tafadhali?I wish to join them..The best am doing currently is 14.17% via the EABL bond..

Horton wrote:


@quicksand 😁😁

@M-ock so u reckon 20% pa is a great feat? Really? i am sure alot of wazuans average way above a 20% return pa. Wacha conspiracy theories. 20% pa returns is actually mediocre to a serious investor

Mike Ock
#388 Posted : Friday, May 26, 2017 8:18:14 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/22/2015
Posts: 461
Horton wrote:
quicksand wrote:
Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.


Ngoja Cytonn defender-in-chief @Horton aone hii.... Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly



@quicksand 😁😁

@M-ock so u reckon 20% pa is a great feat? Really? i am sure alot of wazuans average way above a 20% return pa. Wacha conspiracy theories. 20% pa returns is actually mediocre to a serious investor


Such wild estimates only dupe amateurs. Hapa ni Wazua.

I'm guessing Warren Buffet must be very mediocre in your view:

"Over his first 25 years at Berkshire, Mr. Buffett’s average annual return was 24 percent using book value and 30 percent using market value, compared with 10 percent for the S.&P. 500."

https://mobile.nytimes.c...hathaway-revisited.html





Horton
#389 Posted : Friday, May 26, 2017 9:06:53 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 978
Location: Nairobi
Mike Ock wrote:
Horton wrote:
quicksand wrote:
Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.


Ngoja Cytonn defender-in-chief @Horton aone hii.... Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly



@quicksand 😁😁

@M-ock so u reckon 20% pa is a great feat? Really? i am sure alot of wazuans average way above a 20% return pa. Wacha conspiracy theories. 20% pa returns is actually mediocre to a serious investor


Such wild estimates only dupe amateurs. Hapa ni Wazua.

I'm guessing Warren Buffet must be very mediocre in your view:

"Over his first 25 years at Berkshire, Mr. Buffett’s average annual return was 24 percent using book value and 30 percent using market value, compared with 10 percent for the S.&P. 500."

https://mobile.nytimes.c...hathaway-revisited.html


Haha I love it when people veil their insecurities behind the "wazua" tag.

So here is my attempt to dumb it down:

Buffett plays in the league of the USD where inflation is quite small. 2-3% over the last decade. So when he achieves 25-30% pa...... that is stellar to inflation of just 3% Where as the KES has been very active on the inflationary front. For us we have to get to atleast the 10-31% mark just to keep our purchasing power= to last year and then some.

These guys getting 14% on bonds or 18% pa on CMS (remember this is subject to 15% tax)or otherwise are basically just "breaking even" in Kenya or other comparative economies.

It really is simple economics sir. Thats why real estate in the right areas has done so well this last decade in Kenya, some areas have simply been inflation proof



Mike Ock
#390 Posted : Saturday, May 27, 2017 11:37:07 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/22/2015
Posts: 461
You've basically said that worse market conditions like high somehow lead to higher returns. That's not the case. Worse market conditions lead to lower returns and therefore responsible businessmen operate with high margins to squeeze out good returns from the bad market. Giving away 18% interest on an investment product erodes margin at the very least and at worst it's losing money. At least the Cytonn buildings seem to be going up polepole, so it's not a total scam, I'll give you that. The risk here is that the managers have over extended themselves and this ends up being one of those heavily delayed real estate projects with siasa mob behind the scenes.
Dahatre
#391 Posted : Monday, May 29, 2017 8:10:24 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 361
Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.


I can see this being possible in some forms of venture capital infusion, but I do not know of any venture capitalist who wants his/her money used to pay (high) returns to other investors...

Unless.... I am misunderstanding or it is a Madoff-like venture.
________
How Madoff made it happen
Rich families placed money with wealth managers, hedge funds and private banks

After careful vetting, these professionals chose specialist fund managers. As a consistent performer over decades, Madoff was a favourite choice

Madoff’s popularity lead to specialist funds being set up to raise money to feed directly into Madoff in return for a fee

Although he told them he was investing the money, Madoff used the inflows to pay 'profits’ back to clients

The financial crisis hit inflows and caused clients to ask for their money back. With no money to pay out, the fraud was exposed
Dahatre
#392 Posted : Monday, May 29, 2017 8:14:39 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 361
nyakosh wrote:
CMS is not their KPI but rather designed primarily to tap in diaspora market. These are the guys who came up with this CMS idea when they were still in Britam.


Would love to hear the mechanics/details of how this works...
Horton
#393 Posted : Monday, May 29, 2017 8:17:17 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 978
Location: Nairobi
Stop quoting madoff if u dont understand how the madoff ponzi worked he was very influential in the investing community for decades. He gave out pretty average results to avoid being flagged. Please get ur facts right first before coming out with stellar assumptions.


Dahatre wrote:
Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.


I can see this being possible in some forms of venture capital infusion, but I do not know of any venture capitalist who wants his/her money used to pay (high) returns to other investors...

Unless.... I am misunderstanding or it is a Madoff-like venture.
________
How Madoff made it happen
Rich families placed money with wealth managers, hedge funds and private banks

After careful vetting, these professionals chose specialist fund managers. As a consistent performer over decades, Madoff was a favourite choice

Madoff’s popularity lead to specialist funds being set up to raise money to feed directly into Madoff in return for a fee

Although he told them he was investing the money, Madoff used the inflows to pay 'profits’ back to clients

The financial crisis hit inflows and caused clients to ask for their money back. With no money to pay out, the fraud was exposed
KulaRaha
#394 Posted : Monday, May 29, 2017 9:22:58 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 5,807
Ponzi ponzi ponzi
Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
Dahatre
#395 Posted : Monday, May 29, 2017 9:27:19 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 361
Horton wrote:
Stop quoting madoff if u dont understand how the madoff ponzi worked he was very influential in the investing community for decades. He gave out pretty average results to avoid being flagged. Please get ur facts right first before coming out with stellar assumptions.

So I misunderstood-my bad.
Labda you explain to a non-financial person like me how the capital in the CMS is generated/invested?
Euge
#396 Posted : Tuesday, June 06, 2017 9:40:03 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 8/4/2008
Posts: 2,613
Location: Rupi
Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.


WORD!
Lord, thank you!
kaka2za
#397 Posted : Wednesday, June 07, 2017 9:33:28 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/3/2008
Posts: 2,640
Location: Gwitu
Euge wrote:
Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.


WORD!


What would be the cost of borrowing from banks?
guru267
#398 Posted : Wednesday, June 07, 2017 12:23:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,585
Location: Nairobi
kaka2za wrote:
Euge wrote:
Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.


WORD!


What would be the cost of borrowing from banks?


14% p.a.
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
kaka2za
#399 Posted : Wednesday, June 07, 2017 12:41:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/3/2008
Posts: 2,640
Location: Gwitu
guru267 wrote:
kaka2za wrote:
Euge wrote:
Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.


WORD!


What would be the cost of borrowing from banks?


14% p.a.


Add the hidden costs such as insurance,valuation.appraisal and the true cost should be around 18%
Horton
#400 Posted : Wednesday, June 07, 2017 12:50:06 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 978
Location: Nairobi
kaka2za wrote:
guru267 wrote:
kaka2za wrote:
Euge wrote:
Mike Ock wrote:
That CMS is an obvious ticking time bomb. If they are giving 18% annual interest, that means they are somehow getting 20% and above annual returns on whatever they invest in. Any smart investor knows that consistent 20% and above annual returns is the preserve of the best of the best investors. Furthermore, to guarantee such returns is the mark of a con or someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. The more plausible explanation is that they are using the CMS to fundraise for their projects, in which case, it's still a ticking time bomb because it's such an expensive way of raising funds. Their profits on the projects will be severely eroded. No matter how you look at it, this thing stinks.


WORD!


What would be the cost of borrowing from banks?


14% p.a.


Add the hidden costs such as insurance,valuation.appraisal and the true cost should be around 18%



Add another cost for the stress
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