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#lipakamatender
Dahatre
#521 Posted : Tuesday, March 07, 2017 10:31:27 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 602
Oh and for the "let them go we have clinical officers" crowd...They have side gigs too. I take my kids to one. He has a clinic at KNH and at Pangani...
thuks
#522 Posted : Tuesday, March 07, 2017 10:44:11 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/8/2008
Posts: 1,575
The current flare up is about the order in which the agreements will be signed. Government requires time to study the 'bulky' CBA. What has it been doing all this time?
I care!
murchr
#523 Posted : Tuesday, March 07, 2017 11:33:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
I guess we hear different stuff.

My understanding -

1. The President pointed out that Govt already pays doctors more than they are paid by private hospitals so the "increase" they are asking for is pure blackmail.

2. Govt is already working to improve the hospital ammenities - Rome was not built in a day

3. He went on to thank the Clinical Officers and Nurses, who do most of the work anyway, and went on to note doctors only show up for rounds (2hrs) and disappear. (kweli au rongo)

4. Not that they cant work 5 jobs if they want to, but they should work for the hours they are being paid.

My opinion remains....fire all "permanent docs" those who still want to work can be hired on contract basis/consultations and on a time schedule.

the Star wrote:
The government has cancelled a Sh14.5 billion offer it earlier made doctors to end their strike that has lasted more than three months.

It had proposed the "good gesture" of backdating their risk allowances to July 2016, a package that would cost a total of Sh600 million.

The alternative was backdating the emergency allowance to October 2016, an expense that would have added up to Sh570 million.

Council of Governors chairman Peter Munya, who announced the cancellation, said the offer also included a 50 per cent increase in salaries.

"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Bigchick
#524 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 6:17:18 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/8/2013
Posts: 4,068
Location: At Large.
Dahatre wrote:
You can structure a public health system that has rules that govern conflicts of interest so that the doctors cannot have side gigs. But I think our gova knows that enforcing these rules would require that it tackle corruption effectively, which it is not capable of doing. So it's just easier to blame the doctors.

Meanwhile, almost half of our physician workforce (that we trained) is working in the west and many others are happy to move to Botswana, Rwanda, SA etc...


How much do they earn there?
Are they happier?What stops our current ones from going?

I know about 4 and my assessment is they are not exactly happy.They seem to be at crossroads.They want to be home but have to be out there working.They have lost touch with home and would love to reconnect.


Love is beautiful and so are those who share it.With Love, Marriage is an amazing event in ones life time, the foundation of joy, happiness and success.
Anti_Burglar
#525 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 8:42:49 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/11/2015
Posts: 1,024
I am in agreement that a complete overhaul of the system is necessary. KMPDU as it exists and as part of the system should also be examined in the same spirit. Is it adding value to Kenyans?
Dahatre
#526 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:12:25 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 602
Bigchick wrote:
Dahatre wrote:
You can structure a public health system that has rules that govern conflicts of interest so that the doctors cannot have side gigs. But I think our gova knows that enforcing these rules would require that it tackle corruption effectively, which it is not capable of doing. So it's just easier to blame the doctors.

Meanwhile, almost half of our physician workforce (that we trained) is working in the west and many others are happy to move to Botswana, Rwanda, SA etc...


How much do they earn there?
Are they happier?What stops our current ones from going?

I know about 4 and my assessment is they are not exactly happy.They seem to be at crossroads.They want to be home but have to be out there working.They have lost touch with home and would love to reconnect.
I was speaking purely from the point of view of healthcare policy and human resources management.

To partially answer your questions, many who are here leave within 5 years of training.

I assume the ones who are away are paid the prevailing wages for their specialty in the countries where they work.

We love our people so I can understand your friends who are unhappy. I suppose they can always come back, no?
Dahatre
#527 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:16:03 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 602
deleted
Dahatre
#528 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:17:38 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 602
What is ailing the health sectors in Kenya? What can be done?

chikonde
#529 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:57:38 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 1/15/2010
Posts: 81
A good parent never withdraws an offer made to his children. If he does it means that the offer was made in bad faith, IMHO.

May God help the people of Kenya!
Anti_Burglar
#530 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 10:04:54 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/11/2015
Posts: 1,024
chikonde wrote:
A good parent never withdraws an offer made to his children. If he does it means that the offer was made in bad faith, IMHO.

May God help the people of Kenya!



lol.

A rouge child weeping about the cruelty of the parent when being punished is always something to behold.

Anyway, government as baba ended with Moi.

lol.
Anti_Burglar
#531 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 10:36:26 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/11/2015
Posts: 1,024
Dahatre wrote:
What is ailing the health sectors in Kenya? What can be done?





The allegations of x number of doctors serving 10,000 number of Kenyans though often quoted with genuine concern but is very misguided. It doesn't help that doctors themselves repeat it often. It should be x number of medical health workers serving 10,000 Kenyans. That is according to the Kenya Health Sector Strategic Plan JULY 2013-JUNE 2017.

But it is good he crystalises a main issue as "job group".

Anyway, the different levels of health care delivery in the Kenya Essential Package for Health is as follows:

6 Tertiary hospitals
↑
5 Secondary hospitals
↑
4 Primary hospitals
↑
3 Health centres, maternities, nursing homes
↑
2 Dispensaries/clinics
↑
1 Community: Villages/Households/Families/Individuals


Doctors start appearing in that hierarchy at around level 4. The staff at the community health workers level, dispensaries, clinics, health centers do the donkey work within the community. They include enrolled nurses, nurses, clinical officers and such. What they cannot handle is what they refer up the chain. And that is how it should be. There is no point going to say KNH to get diagnosis for Malaria when it can be done at the health center.

So what is ailing the health sectors in Kenya? What can be done? For starters, lumping money at the top of the chain in salaries and what not is absolutely not the way to go.
Liv
#532 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 10:53:38 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/14/2006
Posts: 1,311
Apparently the objective of the KPMDU leaders was not just a good pay for the doctors. Their motive was to show how the government doesn't care about its people in a year of elections....bringing a 2013 CBA in 2017 and insisting it has to be implemented in full from 1st July 2013.

It was a political agenda and that is why it is being dealt with politically now.... "They work for 2 hours at the government hospitals and spend the rest of the day in their private clinics" ....giving them more money won't improve the services they provide...

Those shedding crocodile tears here ....that ... oh the government has withdrawn the offer ..... Do you think you care more about ordinary Kenyans than the rest of us? You think the doctors care about ordinary Kenyans going to those public hospitals? We are a selfish, self centered, 'me first' capitalistic society.
madollar
#533 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 11:08:09 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/17/2009
Posts: 2,038
Location: GA
chikonde wrote:
A good parent never withdraws an offer made to his children. If he does it means that the offer was made in bad faith, IMHO.

May God help the people of Kenya!

Everybody has tried to mediate on this issue including the clergy na bado ni vichwa ngumu demand after demand.Wacha we see the card they will play next
Ngalaka
#534 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 11:28:24 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
Are we likely to get a brief from a neutral body that is privy to the negotiations - the mediators perhaps!

I hear KMPDU officials have issued a written statement of their own - claiming that the sticking point at this point was getting all parties to sign the deal as hammered, then Doctors resume work as their preferred option, whereas the other party wants the reverse - that they resume work first then have the deal signed later.

Any unbiased third party statement of facts?
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
muganda
#535 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 11:28:49 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,905
Unedited letter by KMPDU SG Ouma Oluga wrote:

Good morning Colleagues,

I hope you are well.

I'm aware you are all angry, frustrated and disappointed. You should be. The tens of millions of Kenyans who depend on Public Health facilities are too. I'm too.

Ironically, even those who can and should take action and make a difference for our country are equally angry, frustrated and disappointed.

The point is that we all are feeling the same and that means it is not what will break the impasse.

For 95 days, the Kenyan Doctors have been on a struggle to restore their dignity and determine their destiny.

That struggle has been long and painful.For 95 days, the public hospitals have been minimally or not functional at all.

That was not our wish or objective from the start and the public have grown weary and stretched by the unending stalemate that has been the issue of CBA registration and implementation.

While for the Kenyan doctors it was and has remained purely an industrial dispute between an employer and a group of employees, the strike meant other things and has thus been deliberately mishandled as a punishment for the doctors.

For KMPDU, the strike was never a contest of any sorts. This was simply a struggle to influence public policy relating to how WE the Kenyan doctors engage our employer, the Government, and how our Healthcare can be made to respond to each of our needs as citizens first and then as Doctors second.

We believed that Doctors United can change healthcare for everybody and bring back the nobility of a profession that is on the brink of collapse. It was about patriotism for our country.

For 95 days, the society has revealed itself to doctors in ways we all never imagined. And if there is one unforgettable outcome of the strike is that we now know what each and everybody in society thinks about doctors.

And we also know how such opinion have affected our profession. And the subtle corporate influence in matters public policy in Healthcare. It is in deed the reason we were in the struggle in the first place.

There has been little doubt that our profession is at threat at the expense of political expediency. And Beyond our immediate need to have our CBA or the union protected, there is urgent need to protect the medical profession.

For 95 days we have been injured in our hearts. By insults and ridicules. We shall heal. We forgive. We have been sacked ad infinitum and we have been character assassinated.

We have been emotionally abused by use of our moral and ethical obligation to the Hippocratic Oath. We have remained strong and United. We have demonstrated resolve beyond understanding to many.

From the start, there was already a plan to make the doctor tire. To push the doctor to his unbearable limits and finally deal a death blow to the union and the medical profession.

We approached negotiations with utmost good faith and obedience. Responding to every call of meeting and staying late sometimes up to 3am even after you advised us to keep it only up to 5pm.

Because we believed we could quickly come to an agreement and restore industrial harmony. But there were other plans that we should either have a very bad deal or have nothing at all.

And there in lies what has kept the strike for 95 days. When we kept talking about the CBA, the Government kept talking about offers and portraying the strike as simply a greedy quest for more money.

We did eventually talked and concluded the CBA. Yesterday, having consulted NAC, we decided that the financial offer be put in the CBA which then should be signed and registered.

And as fate would prove, the goalposts have shifted once again. The same CBA we revised for months should now wait another 30 days for signing and registration thereafter. The fact is no one wants you to have a CBA. Because a CBA is to a union what the constitution is to a country.

When we are at the very near end, a hurdle is being introduced. Doctors we have done our bit and our bit has been the best.

Congratulations. Let us be angry and frustrated and disappointed. Let us even cry but let us do it for our country and for the millions of citizens who pass through our hands daily in such of health. Let us do it healthcare. Let us not weep for long because as sure as the sun shall arise, we can only move forward.

No one should never convince you that fighting for what is right is not worth it. No one deserves your anger beyond the need to protect your profession. Be sure, we shall overcome.

But the success of the union depends on the very resolve and the unity we exhibit. Let us guard it. While all doctors have been ready to resume duty, doing so under threats, intimidation and show of disrespect is tantamount to career suicide. Avoid until when we advice so.

Finally, it is important to note that while the payroll and the hospital belongs to the government, your skill is selfishly yours. Use it to serve humanity in the best way possible.

But let not you think that it must be forced on you to use it. Your skill as a doctor is what you provide as Labour. How much is it worth? Some dignity perhaps. Some respect certainly!

We await to conclude the signing of Recognition Agreements, CBA and then after RTWF as was guided by the Court of Appeal under the Mediation of Religious Leaders. We hope this shall be done soon.

Thank you. God bless you. Keep Calm.



Bigchick
#536 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 11:32:20 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/8/2013
Posts: 4,068
Location: At Large.
Liv wrote:
Apparently the objective of the KPMDU leaders was not just a good pay for the doctors. Their motive was to show how the government doesn't care about its people in a year of elections....bringing a 2013 CBA in 2017 and insisting it has to be implemented in full from 1st July 2013.

It was a political agenda and that is why it is being dealt with politically now.... "They work for 2 hours at the government hospitals and spend the rest of the day in their private clinics" ....giving them more money won't improve the services they provide...

Those shedding crocodile tears here ....that ... oh the government has withdrawn the offer ..... Do you think you care more about ordinary Kenyans than the rest of us? You think the doctors care about ordinary Kenyans going to those public hospitals? We are a selfish, self centered, 'me first' capitalistic society.


That political angle is what we have been avoiding to say all along.I wish to add its fully backed in spirit by our very able opposition.Our saving grace is they lack the physical muscle to sustain it.

Calling it #Lipakamatender# gave away the political intention.



Love is beautiful and so are those who share it.With Love, Marriage is an amazing event in ones life time, the foundation of joy, happiness and success.
Ngalaka
#537 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 11:45:05 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
As an employer the Govt is free to push back and offer what it thinks is sustainable.

But to openly threaten Doctors!!!
"We will sort them"!

It is equally unacceptable that we also heard the threat to de-register the Doctors union!

In an industrial situation what you do as an employer is sack not frighten! especially if you control state machinery.

Imagine the state of mind of the KMPDU officials and their families after those utterances.

Such intimidation and appeal to fear is completely uncalled for in this situation.

http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Government-revokes-offer-to-doctors-/1056-3841176-drs5hl/index.html
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
Anti_Burglar
#538 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 12:17:10 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/11/2015
Posts: 1,024
muganda wrote:
Unedited letter by KMPDU SG Ouma Oluga wrote:

Good morning Colleagues,

I hope you are well.

I'm aware you are all angry, frustrated and disappointed. You should be. The tens of millions of Kenyans who depend on Public Health facilities are too. I'm too.

Ironically, even those who can and should take action and make a difference for our country are equally angry, frustrated and disappointed.

The point is that we all are feeling the same and that means it is not what will break the impasse.

For 95 days, the Kenyan Doctors have been on a struggle to restore their dignity and determine their destiny.

That struggle has been long and painful.For 95 days, the public hospitals have been minimally or not functional at all.

That was not our wish or objective from the start and the public have grown weary and stretched by the unending stalemate that has been the issue of CBA registration and implementation.

While for the Kenyan doctors it was and has remained purely an industrial dispute between an employer and a group of employees, the strike meant other things and has thus been deliberately mishandled as a punishment for the doctors.

For KMPDU, the strike was never a contest of any sorts. This was simply a struggle to influence public policy relating to how WE the Kenyan doctors engage our employer, the Government , and how our Healthcare can be made to respond to each of our needs as citizens first and then as Doctors second.

We believed that Doctors United can change healthcare for everybody and bring back the nobility of a profession that is on the brink of collapse. It was about patriotism for our country.

For 95 days, the society has revealed itself to doctors in ways we all never imagined. And if there is one unforgettable outcome of the strike is that we now know what each and everybody in society thinks about doctors.

And we also know how such opinion have affected our profession. And the subtle corporate influence in matters public policy in Healthcare. It is in deed the reason we were in the struggle in the first place.

There has been little doubt that our profession is at threat at the expense of political expediency. And Beyond our immediate need to have our CBA or the union protected, there is urgent need to protect the medical profession.

For 95 days we have been injured in our hearts. By insults and ridicules. We shall heal. We forgive. We have been sacked ad infinitum and we have been character assassinated.

We have been emotionally abused by use of our moral and ethical obligation to the Hippocratic Oath. We have remained strong and United. We have demonstrated resolve beyond understanding to many.

From the start, there was already a plan to make the doctor tire. To push the doctor to his unbearable limits and finally deal a death blow to the union and the medical profession.

We approached negotiations with utmost good faith and obedience. Responding to every call of meeting and staying late sometimes up to 3am even after you advised us to keep it only up to 5pm.

Because we believed we could quickly come to an agreement and restore industrial harmony. But there were other plans that we should either have a very bad deal or have nothing at all.

And there in lies what has kept the strike for 95 days. When we kept talking about the CBA, the Government kept talking about offers and portraying the strike as simply a greedy quest for more money.

We did eventually talked and concluded the CBA. Yesterday, having consulted NAC, we decided that the financial offer be put in the CBA which then should be signed and registered.

And as fate would prove, the goalposts have shifted once again. The same CBA we revised for months should now wait another 30 days for signing and registration thereafter. The fact is no one wants you to have a CBA. Because a CBA is to a union what the constitution is to a country.

When we are at the very near end, a hurdle is being introduced. Doctors we have done our bit and our bit has been the best.

Congratulations. Let us be angry and frustrated and disappointed. Let us even cry but let us do it for our country and for the millions of citizens who pass through our hands daily in such of health. Let us do it healthcare. Let us not weep for long because as sure as the sun shall arise, we can only move forward.

No one should never convince you that fighting for what is right is not worth it. No one deserves your anger beyond the need to protect your profession. Be sure, we shall overcome.

But the success of the union depends on the very resolve and the unity we exhibit. Let us guard it. While all doctors have been ready to resume duty, doing so under threats, intimidation and show of disrespect is tantamount to career suicide. Avoid until when we advice so.

Finally, it is important to note that while the payroll and the hospital belongs to the government, your skill is selfishly yours. Use it to serve humanity in the best way possible.

But let not you think that it must be forced on you to use it. Your skill as a doctor is what you provide as Labour. How much is it worth? Some dignity perhaps. Some respect certainly!

We await to conclude the signing of Recognition Agreements, CBA and then after RTWF as was guided by the Court of Appeal under the Mediation of Religious Leaders. We hope this shall be done soon.

Thank you. God bless you. Keep Calm.






Politics. Campaigns. Politics.

Then "how our Healthcare can be made to respond to each of our needs as citizens first and then as Doctors second" is a distant second priority after kupiga siasa ya employer-employee relations!!

madollar
#539 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 12:21:29 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/17/2009
Posts: 2,038
Location: GA
Ngalaka wrote:
As an employer the Govt is free to push back and offer what it thinks is sustainable.

But to openly threaten Doctors!!!
"We will sort them"!

It is equally unacceptable that we also heard the threat to de-register the Doctors union!

In an industrial situation what you do as an employer is sack not frighten! especially if you control state machinery.

Imagine the state of mind of the KMPDU officials and their families after those utterances.

Such intimidation and appeal to fear is completely uncalled for in this situation.

Something must have happened that about turn by the gava supported by the governors from both sides was not kawaida reaction given how patient they have been with them.

FRM2011
#540 Posted : Wednesday, March 08, 2017 12:26:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/5/2010
Posts: 2,459
Ngalaka wrote:
Are we likely to get a brief from a neutral body that is privy to the negotiations - the mediators perhaps!

I hear KMPDU officials have issued a written statement of their own - claiming that the sticking point at this point was getting all parties to sign the deal as hammered, then Doctors resume work as their preferred option, whereas the other party wants the reverse - that they resume work first then have the deal signed later.

Any unbiased third party statement of facts?


This is the most objective post I have seen on this thread. Someone out there has the unbiased truth of who wants the situation to escalate.

Last thing I heard was that a deal had been struck. Then the threats from naivasha. Let's wait for the Cuban and Tanzanian doctors.
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