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#lipakamatender
Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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alma1 wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Lolest! wrote:Bigchick wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Don't quite see why any reasonable person would want to demonise the Doctors.We have seen their asking terms;- They have also indicated that they are ready for give and take harmonisation. On the other hand - just what is the employers counter proposal?! If any, how reasonable is it?! Going back to the CBA doc as above was it negotiated by the parties - with the employer(s) present and participating and presumably agreeing! We heard from proceedings in court that the only part that was due was registering the CBA doc in Court as required. Hence, assuming that to be the true position, is one party now reneging on matters already discussed and agreed upon! Can Mailu and Co. come clean on these issues! Strong yet ironic words there, Ngalaka. Pray tell, where is the humanity in you if you have the know-how to treat someone but you decide not to and let him/her DIE. Picture someone going through the entire process of dying to the end and you with all your skills and expertise do NOTHING. Yet you complain you are tired of seeing people dying. It would be different if you let him/her get a little bit sicker but did not complete the process of dying, or if you knew nothing. No one is demonising the doctors. They are doing it by themselves, causing anguish and grief to sons, daughters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers. Liike I said elsewhere Doctors and Nurses are called to their profession so when they decide to commercialize it they become the aggressors in this matter. And this is not to say they do not deserve better but lets negotiate as they continue taking care of the sick.Better health care for all will not happen overnight. From the speeches last night its all about money.Infact they said they want it in arrears. Yeah. #lipakamatender is just lipamishaharayetu kama tender So pay at least 300k for entry level doctors The part for facilities is actually very small in the CBA. It's most likely an afterthought. For hoodwinking the mwananchi that the fight is about them I know there are many conscientious doctors who feel very uncomfortable not saving lives in this manner. You will not see them wasting valuable medical supplies in dusty Uhuru Park heckling and dancing. But the agitation and enthusiasm of their not-so-inclined colleagues is a hindrance to their desire to fulfill their passion. Kweli? For example? Wazua has some doctors, have you polled them? This is the CBA...Not the Kameme 1 million... There are very important sections you should note in this document. https://drive.google.com...mjeTzZSa25udUNaeUU/view
This information is captured in ALL the pages of the document. Signatures of the gov't of Kenya representatives. Agreeing to everything stated. Including the salaries you hate. Question you should ask yourself in your moment of caring for your fellow Kenyan. 1. Where were you when the doctor couldn't get gloves in the hospital because the gov't didn't provide them? 2. Where were you when the hospital didn't have enough blood to save a life because the gov't didn't provide? 3. Were you there at casualty when there weren't enough doctors in the hospital? This emotional nonsense you spew here... Since the strike started, how many people have you taken to hospital? So what if the doctors are asking for more pay? If you are happy with your pay, kaa kidete...Wachana na ya wengine. I support the doctors for one reason and one reason only. When a gov't starts going back against it's own contracts, then you do not have a country. It is that simple and that clear. For emotional issues saying sijui God will see the doctors, please call your pastor. I have listened and talked to doctors. I know their pain. I have also listened to gov't and their representatives. All I know is that somehow kabura can get funded and sijui clinics still stuck in Mombasa... I know whom to believe amongst the two. Someone who get's into a contract and abides by it. Or someone who still has mobile immobile clinics gathering dust at the port. When talking about supplies gloves etc you always mention the governement. Never once have I read you mention KEMSA whose role it is to ensure these supplies reach the medics. Never once have I read you mention the KNBTS whose role it is to collect, test, process and distribute blood to the medics. Instead you target a collective boogey man called the "government" and cheer and gloat as people suffer die. Could it be you absolutely do not know the roles of the different entities and how well or bad they are doing their respective work? Some of my relatives and associates are doctors and medics and I have talked to them. Then I meet you ....
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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Lolest! wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Bigchick wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Don't quite see why any reasonable person would want to demonise the Doctors.We have seen their asking terms;- They have also indicated that they are ready for give and take harmonisation. On the other hand - just what is the employers counter proposal?! If any, how reasonable is it?! Going back to the CBA doc as above was it negotiated by the parties - with the employer(s) present and participating and presumably agreeing! We heard from proceedings in court that the only part that was due was registering the CBA doc in Court as required. Hence, assuming that to be the true position, is one party now reneging on matters already discussed and agreed upon! Can Mailu and Co. come clean on these issues! Strong yet ironic words there, Ngalaka. Pray tell, where is the humanity in you if you have the know-how to treat someone but you decide not to and let him/her DIE. Picture someone going through the entire process of dying to the end and you with all your skills and expertise do NOTHING. Yet you complain you are tired of seeing people dying. It would be different if you let him/her get a little bit sicker but did not complete the process of dying, or if you knew nothing. No one is demonising the doctors. They are doing it by themselves, causing anguish and grief to sons, daughters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers. Liike I said elsewhere Doctors and Nurses are called to their profession so when they decide to commercialize it they become the aggressors in this matter. And this is not to say they do not deserve better but lets negotiate as they continue taking care of the sick.Better health care for all will not happen overnight. From the speeches last night its all about money.Infact they said they want it in arrears. These are professionals working for pay, though no one is denying that the nature of work they do calls for high ethics. Those who are in it for the calling enlist with Medicins sans frontieres I'm with you on the calling partIt's a job that should pay bills like yours and mine But 300K entry level demand is too much IMO Trying to win our support by citing how the CBA is big on facilities and small on doctor's welfare is attempting to confuse us Thank you for your objectivity. That aside we can now objectively debate the matter of pay. Just what is the Govts counter offer!!!!! Remember, when you wish to go to the moon you shoot for the Sun! If someone offers them a reasonable pay, and they refuse to take it, I would be dismayed! But as things stand today, they are being played as usual - by you know who! Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Ngalaka wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Don't quite see why any reasonable person would want to demonise the Doctors.We have seen their asking terms;- They have also indicated that they are ready for give and take harmonisation. On the other hand - just what is the employers counter proposal?! If any, how reasonable is it?! Going back to the CBA doc as above was it negotiated by the parties - with the employer(s) present and participating and presumably agreeing! We heard from proceedings in court that the only part that was due was registering the CBA doc in Court as required. Hence, assuming that to be the true position, is one party now reneging on matters already discussed and agreed upon! Can Mailu and Co. come clean on these issues! Strong yet ironic words there, Ngalaka. Pray tell, where is the humanity in you if you have the know-how to treat someone but you decide not to and let him/her DIE. Picture someone going through the entire process of dying to the end and you with all your skills and expertise do NOTHING. Yet you complain you are tired of seeing people dying. It would be different if you let him/her get a little bit sicker but did not complete the process of dying, or if you knew nothing. No one is demonising the doctors. They are doing it by themselves, causing anguish and grief to sons, daughters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers. Mixing up issues - deliberately - in order to muddy the waters! Lets be objective for heavens sake! This is a matter of workers agitating for better terms. Quite apart from humanitarian issues. Heck, nothing has stopped you and I from jumping in on humanitarian grounds to pick those in dire need (like the case you highlighted earlier on this thread) and pay for them to get medical attention in Nairobi hospital or abroad! Oh, but there is absolutely no mixup of issues. There is deliberate effort being made to sweep under the carpet the human cost of their action. Humanitarian issues as you call it. As if tears caused can be hidden and or dismissed with a "this is between us and the government only". You cannot run away from it. I am not interested in quarrels and fights and postures with whoever or whatever one tiny little bit. If it is pricking your conscience, do not fight it or live in denial. Or you can if you want. Discuss the real issues! The rationale of casting the human suffering as a Doctors problem and NOT a Government one is telling. The onus to provide public health care is squarely government's. Doctors are employees working for Govt - helping it achieve its mandate. It behoves the Govt to pay them adequately for them to continue assisting it in meeting its responsibility. Which brings us to the real issues. Is the Govt playing its role properly? Are the Doctors' asking terms reasonable? What is the Govt's counter offer? Why has the matter been in abeyance since 2013? What you are saying is good and true. You are concentrating on the matter of pay which in our initial engagements you were downplaying. I am concentrating on the matter of the abandoned patients.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Don't quite see why any reasonable person would want to demonise the Doctors.We have seen their asking terms;- They have also indicated that they are ready for give and take harmonisation. On the other hand - just what is the employers counter proposal?! If any, how reasonable is it?! Going back to the CBA doc as above was it negotiated by the parties - with the employer(s) present and participating and presumably agreeing! We heard from proceedings in court that the only part that was due was registering the CBA doc in Court as required. Hence, assuming that to be the true position, is one party now reneging on matters already discussed and agreed upon! Can Mailu and Co. come clean on these issues! Strong yet ironic words there, Ngalaka. Pray tell, where is the humanity in you if you have the know-how to treat someone but you decide not to and let him/her DIE. Picture someone going through the entire process of dying to the end and you with all your skills and expertise do NOTHING. Yet you complain you are tired of seeing people dying. It would be different if you let him/her get a little bit sicker but did not complete the process of dying, or if you knew nothing. No one is demonising the doctors. They are doing it by themselves, causing anguish and grief to sons, daughters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers. Mixing up issues - deliberately - in order to muddy the waters! Lets be objective for heavens sake! This is a matter of workers agitating for better terms. Quite apart from humanitarian issues. Heck, nothing has stopped you and I from jumping in on humanitarian grounds to pick those in dire need (like the case you highlighted earlier on this thread) and pay for them to get medical attention in Nairobi hospital or abroad! Oh, but there is absolutely no mixup of issues.There is deliberate effort being made to sweep under the carpet the human cost of their action. Humanitarian issues as you call it. As if tears caused can be hidden and or dismissed with a "this is between us and the government only". You cannot run away from it. I am not interested in quarrels and fights and postures with whoever or whatever one tiny little bit. If it is pricking your conscience, do not fight it or live in denial. Or you can if you want. Oh no, no mix-up. You are just short-sighted or naive. You want to point at the doctors and assign blame, declaring only them culpable for the suffering and loss of life. How about the Government (via the Ministry of Health)?...the infighting between the CS and PS, the mismanagement, lack of foresight and planning, corruption and theft...you want to say these haven't had an impact on public health? That incompetency and negligence hasn't led to loss of life? Or those lives aren't important ...only the ones lost at the tipping point huh? How about our role as brainless voters who can't elect competent leaders? As simpletons, even in the thick of things can't separate the issues from the nonsense? Is it this hard for people to reason? Computer literate people even? Jesus Christ.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/19/2015 Posts: 2,871 Location: hapo
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Anti_Burglar wrote:alma1 wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Lolest! wrote:Bigchick wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Don't quite see why any reasonable person would want to demonise the Doctors.We have seen their asking terms;- They have also indicated that they are ready for give and take harmonisation. On the other hand - just what is the employers counter proposal?! If any, how reasonable is it?! Going back to the CBA doc as above was it negotiated by the parties - with the employer(s) present and participating and presumably agreeing! We heard from proceedings in court that the only part that was due was registering the CBA doc in Court as required. Hence, assuming that to be the true position, is one party now reneging on matters already discussed and agreed upon! Can Mailu and Co. come clean on these issues! Strong yet ironic words there, Ngalaka. Pray tell, where is the humanity in you if you have the know-how to treat someone but you decide not to and let him/her DIE. Picture someone going through the entire process of dying to the end and you with all your skills and expertise do NOTHING. Yet you complain you are tired of seeing people dying. It would be different if you let him/her get a little bit sicker but did not complete the process of dying, or if you knew nothing. No one is demonising the doctors. They are doing it by themselves, causing anguish and grief to sons, daughters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers. Liike I said elsewhere Doctors and Nurses are called to their profession so when they decide to commercialize it they become the aggressors in this matter. And this is not to say they do not deserve better but lets negotiate as they continue taking care of the sick.Better health care for all will not happen overnight. From the speeches last night its all about money.Infact they said they want it in arrears. Yeah. #lipakamatender is just lipamishaharayetu kama tender So pay at least 300k for entry level doctors The part for facilities is actually very small in the CBA. It's most likely an afterthought. For hoodwinking the mwananchi that the fight is about them I know there are many conscientious doctors who feel very uncomfortable not saving lives in this manner. You will not see them wasting valuable medical supplies in dusty Uhuru Park heckling and dancing. But the agitation and enthusiasm of their not-so-inclined colleagues is a hindrance to their desire to fulfill their passion. Kweli? For example? Wazua has some doctors, have you polled them? This is the CBA...Not the Kameme 1 million... There are very important sections you should note in this document. https://drive.google.com...mjeTzZSa25udUNaeUU/view
This information is captured in ALL the pages of the document. Signatures of the gov't of Kenya representatives. Agreeing to everything stated. Including the salaries you hate. Question you should ask yourself in your moment of caring for your fellow Kenyan. 1. Where were you when the doctor couldn't get gloves in the hospital because the gov't didn't provide them? 2. Where were you when the hospital didn't have enough blood to save a life because the gov't didn't provide? 3. Were you there at casualty when there weren't enough doctors in the hospital? This emotional nonsense you spew here... Since the strike started, how many people have you taken to hospital? So what if the doctors are asking for more pay? If you are happy with your pay, kaa kidete...Wachana na ya wengine. I support the doctors for one reason and one reason only. When a gov't starts going back against it's own contracts, then you do not have a country. It is that simple and that clear. For emotional issues saying sijui God will see the doctors, please call your pastor. I have listened and talked to doctors. I know their pain. I have also listened to gov't and their representatives. All I know is that somehow kabura can get funded and sijui clinics still stuck in Mombasa... I know whom to believe amongst the two. Someone who get's into a contract and abides by it. Or someone who still has mobile immobile clinics gathering dust at the port. When talking about supplies gloves etc you always mention the governement. Never once have I read you mention KEMSA whose role it is to ensure these supplies reach the medics. Never once have I read you mention the KNBTS whose role it is to collect, test, process and distribute blood to the medics. Instead you target a collective boogey man called the "government" and cheer and gloat as people suffer die. Could it be you absolutely do not know the roles of the different entities and how well or bad they are doing their respective work? Some of my relatives and associates are doctors and medics and I have talked to them. Then I meet you .... Unlike you, I don't pretend to be sijui neutral...I was for the strike and it's clear in my postings.Murchr has been consistent on anything labor related.. You on the other hand pretend that you are "neutral". Caring for the poor man.... That tells a lot. I have said and will say it again. The issue is not how much they are paid. The issue is Can the gov't renege on its own promises and get away with it? Can a gov't sign a contract and later declare it illegal? Can gov't officials confess to not attending talks and still continue working? I know it is common place for jubilee mandarins to promise one thing and give another. I'm still waiting for the laptops by the say... But that's not right, is it? You want to say people are dying in hospital because the doctor refused to work...You still want that doctor to go to jail....Then you want that doctor to heal someone... Kweli daktari ni malaya? It's called collective bargaining because grown ups sat down and agreed on something. We expect the gov't to provide public health. It's that simple. Gov't is not a boogey man here....They either provide the services or go home....They can't do their work period. As for doctors, these are simply employees. If they don't like the pay, they don't work...If you don't like it, fire them and get new doctors....Not trying to become a Jesus freak because the gov't has been found out for what it really is. You will not work for anyone without proper conditions. But if you can, please don't hate on the doctors when they are tired of being led along like a 15 year old girl. Since 2013, surely...Can you imagine your boss promising you a salary increase for 4 years and you are still in that office? Every person who has died in these hospitals is the fault of the gov't. They can't duck their responsibility. Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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quicksand wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Don't quite see why any reasonable person would want to demonise the Doctors.We have seen their asking terms;- They have also indicated that they are ready for give and take harmonisation. On the other hand - just what is the employers counter proposal?! If any, how reasonable is it?! Going back to the CBA doc as above was it negotiated by the parties - with the employer(s) present and participating and presumably agreeing! We heard from proceedings in court that the only part that was due was registering the CBA doc in Court as required. Hence, assuming that to be the true position, is one party now reneging on matters already discussed and agreed upon! Can Mailu and Co. come clean on these issues! Strong yet ironic words there, Ngalaka. Pray tell, where is the humanity in you if you have the know-how to treat someone but you decide not to and let him/her DIE. Picture someone going through the entire process of dying to the end and you with all your skills and expertise do NOTHING. Yet you complain you are tired of seeing people dying. It would be different if you let him/her get a little bit sicker but did not complete the process of dying, or if you knew nothing. No one is demonising the doctors. They are doing it by themselves, causing anguish and grief to sons, daughters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers. Mixing up issues - deliberately - in order to muddy the waters! Lets be objective for heavens sake! This is a matter of workers agitating for better terms. Quite apart from humanitarian issues. Heck, nothing has stopped you and I from jumping in on humanitarian grounds to pick those in dire need (like the case you highlighted earlier on this thread) and pay for them to get medical attention in Nairobi hospital or abroad! Oh, but there is absolutely no mixup of issues.There is deliberate effort being made to sweep under the carpet the human cost of their action. Humanitarian issues as you call it. As if tears caused can be hidden and or dismissed with a "this is between us and the government only". You cannot run away from it. I am not interested in quarrels and fights and postures with whoever or whatever one tiny little bit. If it is pricking your conscience, do not fight it or live in denial. Or you can if you want. Oh no, no mix-up. You are just short-sighted or naive. You want to point at the doctors and assign blame, declaring only them culpable for the suffering and loss of life. How about the Government (via the Ministry of Health)?...the infighting between the CS and PS, the mismanagement, lack of foresight and planning, corruption and theft...you want to say these haven't had an impact on public health? That incompetency and negligence hasn't led to loss of life? Or those lives aren't important ...only the ones lost at the tipping point huh? How about our role as brainless voters who can't elect competent leaders? As simpletons, even in the thick of things can't separate the issues from the nonsense? Is it this hard for people to reason? Computer literate people even? Jesus Christ. I am not short-sighted or naive. What I have not done, intentionally I hasten to add, is to focus on the government. I let you guys do that and you don't need my help, clearly.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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alma1 wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:alma1 wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Lolest! wrote:Bigchick wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Don't quite see why any reasonable person would want to demonise the Doctors.We have seen their asking terms;- They have also indicated that they are ready for give and take harmonisation. On the other hand - just what is the employers counter proposal?! If any, how reasonable is it?! Going back to the CBA doc as above was it negotiated by the parties - with the employer(s) present and participating and presumably agreeing! We heard from proceedings in court that the only part that was due was registering the CBA doc in Court as required. Hence, assuming that to be the true position, is one party now reneging on matters already discussed and agreed upon! Can Mailu and Co. come clean on these issues! Strong yet ironic words there, Ngalaka. Pray tell, where is the humanity in you if you have the know-how to treat someone but you decide not to and let him/her DIE. Picture someone going through the entire process of dying to the end and you with all your skills and expertise do NOTHING. Yet you complain you are tired of seeing people dying. It would be different if you let him/her get a little bit sicker but did not complete the process of dying, or if you knew nothing. No one is demonising the doctors. They are doing it by themselves, causing anguish and grief to sons, daughters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers. Liike I said elsewhere Doctors and Nurses are called to their profession so when they decide to commercialize it they become the aggressors in this matter. And this is not to say they do not deserve better but lets negotiate as they continue taking care of the sick.Better health care for all will not happen overnight. From the speeches last night its all about money.Infact they said they want it in arrears. Yeah. #lipakamatender is just lipamishaharayetu kama tender So pay at least 300k for entry level doctors The part for facilities is actually very small in the CBA. It's most likely an afterthought. For hoodwinking the mwananchi that the fight is about them I know there are many conscientious doctors who feel very uncomfortable not saving lives in this manner. You will not see them wasting valuable medical supplies in dusty Uhuru Park heckling and dancing. But the agitation and enthusiasm of their not-so-inclined colleagues is a hindrance to their desire to fulfill their passion. Kweli? For example? Wazua has some doctors, have you polled them? This is the CBA...Not the Kameme 1 million... There are very important sections you should note in this document. https://drive.google.com...mjeTzZSa25udUNaeUU/view
This information is captured in ALL the pages of the document. Signatures of the gov't of Kenya representatives. Agreeing to everything stated. Including the salaries you hate. Question you should ask yourself in your moment of caring for your fellow Kenyan. 1. Where were you when the doctor couldn't get gloves in the hospital because the gov't didn't provide them? 2. Where were you when the hospital didn't have enough blood to save a life because the gov't didn't provide? 3. Were you there at casualty when there weren't enough doctors in the hospital? This emotional nonsense you spew here... Since the strike started, how many people have you taken to hospital? So what if the doctors are asking for more pay? If you are happy with your pay, kaa kidete...Wachana na ya wengine. I support the doctors for one reason and one reason only. When a gov't starts going back against it's own contracts, then you do not have a country. It is that simple and that clear. For emotional issues saying sijui God will see the doctors, please call your pastor. I have listened and talked to doctors. I know their pain. I have also listened to gov't and their representatives. All I know is that somehow kabura can get funded and sijui clinics still stuck in Mombasa... I know whom to believe amongst the two. Someone who get's into a contract and abides by it. Or someone who still has mobile immobile clinics gathering dust at the port. When talking about supplies gloves etc you always mention the governement. Never once have I read you mention KEMSA whose role it is to ensure these supplies reach the medics. Never once have I read you mention the KNBTS whose role it is to collect, test, process and distribute blood to the medics. Instead you target a collective boogey man called the "government" and cheer and gloat as people suffer die. Could it be you absolutely do not know the roles of the different entities and how well or bad they are doing their respective work? Some of my relatives and associates are doctors and medics and I have talked to them. Then I meet you .... Unlike you, I don't pretend to be sijui neutral...I was for the strike and it's clear in my postings.Murchr has been consistent on anything labor related.. You on the other hand pretend that you are "neutral". Caring for the poor man.... That tells a lot. I have said and will say it again.
The issue is not how much they are paid. The issue is Can the gov't renege on its own promises and get away with it? Can a gov't sign a contract and later declare it illegal? Can gov't officials confess to not attending talks and still continue working? I know it is common place for jubilee mandarins to promise one thing and give another. I'm still waiting for the laptops by the say... But that's not right, is it? You want to say people are dying in hospital because the doctor refused to work...You still want that doctor to go to jail....Then you want that doctor to heal someone... Kweli daktari ni malaya? It's called collective bargaining because grown ups sat down and agreed on something. We expect the gov't to provide public health. It's that simple. Gov't is not a boogey man here....They either provide the services or go home....They can't do their work period. As for doctors, these are simply employees. If they don't like the pay, they don't work...If you don't like it, fire them and get new doctors....Not trying to become a Jesus freak because the gov't has been found out for what it really is. You will not work for anyone without proper conditions. But if you can, please don't hate on the doctors when they are tired of being led along like a 15 year old girl. Since 2013, surely...Can you imagine your boss promising you a salary increase for 4 years and you are still in that office? Every person who has died in these hospitals is the fault of the gov't. They can't duck their responsibility. At least I can say with confidence not everyone agrees with you as you say that the issue is not pay. Unless the Wazuan I'm relying on flip flops.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Don't quite see why any reasonable person would want to demonise the Doctors.We have seen their asking terms;- They have also indicated that they are ready for give and take harmonisation. On the other hand - just what is the employers counter proposal?! If any, how reasonable is it?! Going back to the CBA doc as above was it negotiated by the parties - with the employer(s) present and participating and presumably agreeing! We heard from proceedings in court that the only part that was due was registering the CBA doc in Court as required. Hence, assuming that to be the true position, is one party now reneging on matters already discussed and agreed upon! Can Mailu and Co. come clean on these issues! Strong yet ironic words there, Ngalaka. Pray tell, where is the humanity in you if you have the know-how to treat someone but you decide not to and let him/her DIE. Picture someone going through the entire process of dying to the end and you with all your skills and expertise do NOTHING. Yet you complain you are tired of seeing people dying. It would be different if you let him/her get a little bit sicker but did not complete the process of dying, or if you knew nothing. No one is demonising the doctors. They are doing it by themselves, causing anguish and grief to sons, daughters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers. Mixing up issues - deliberately - in order to muddy the waters! Lets be objective for heavens sake! This is a matter of workers agitating for better terms. Quite apart from humanitarian issues. Heck, nothing has stopped you and I from jumping in on humanitarian grounds to pick those in dire need (like the case you highlighted earlier on this thread) and pay for them to get medical attention in Nairobi hospital or abroad! Oh, but there is absolutely no mixup of issues. There is deliberate effort being made to sweep under the carpet the human cost of their action. Humanitarian issues as you call it. As if tears caused can be hidden and or dismissed with a "this is between us and the government only". You cannot run away from it. I am not interested in quarrels and fights and postures with whoever or whatever one tiny little bit. If it is pricking your conscience, do not fight it or live in denial. Or you can if you want. Discuss the real issues! The rationale of casting the human suffering as a Doctors problem and NOT a Government one is telling. The onus to provide public health care is squarely government's. Doctors are employees working for Govt - helping it achieve its mandate. It behoves the Govt to pay them adequately for them to continue assisting it in meeting its responsibility. Which brings us to the real issues. Is the Govt playing its role properly? Are the Doctors' asking terms reasonable? What is the Govt's counter offer? Why has the matter been in abeyance since 2013? What you are saying is good and true. You are concentrating on the matter of pay which in our initial engagements you were downplaying. I am concentrating on the matter of the abandoned patients. That's a white one brother! Through out this thread, I have maintained and upheld the Doctors right to agitate for better pay! On abandoned patients - ask the one who under the law is OBLIGATED to ensure public health care provision is real - and collects tax for it! Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/19/2015 Posts: 2,871 Location: hapo
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Anti_Burglar wrote:
At least I can say with confidence not everyone agrees with you as you say that the issue is not pay. Unless the Wazuan I'm relying on flip flops.
Therein lies your problem You are writing on wazua to score points. That is why you see arguments with hardwood, masukuma and murchr are fun...While others are just plain tiresome. Say what you really feel and don't apologise..Stop looking for wazua brownie points and don't parrot "the systems" ideas here. Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Ngalaka wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Don't quite see why any reasonable person would want to demonise the Doctors.We have seen their asking terms;- They have also indicated that they are ready for give and take harmonisation. On the other hand - just what is the employers counter proposal?! If any, how reasonable is it?! Going back to the CBA doc as above was it negotiated by the parties - with the employer(s) present and participating and presumably agreeing! We heard from proceedings in court that the only part that was due was registering the CBA doc in Court as required. Hence, assuming that to be the true position, is one party now reneging on matters already discussed and agreed upon! Can Mailu and Co. come clean on these issues! Strong yet ironic words there, Ngalaka. Pray tell, where is the humanity in you if you have the know-how to treat someone but you decide not to and let him/her DIE. Picture someone going through the entire process of dying to the end and you with all your skills and expertise do NOTHING. Yet you complain you are tired of seeing people dying. It would be different if you let him/her get a little bit sicker but did not complete the process of dying, or if you knew nothing. No one is demonising the doctors. They are doing it by themselves, causing anguish and grief to sons, daughters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers. Mixing up issues - deliberately - in order to muddy the waters! Lets be objective for heavens sake! This is a matter of workers agitating for better terms. Quite apart from humanitarian issues. Heck, nothing has stopped you and I from jumping in on humanitarian grounds to pick those in dire need (like the case you highlighted earlier on this thread) and pay for them to get medical attention in Nairobi hospital or abroad! Oh, but there is absolutely no mixup of issues. There is deliberate effort being made to sweep under the carpet the human cost of their action. Humanitarian issues as you call it. As if tears caused can be hidden and or dismissed with a "this is between us and the government only". You cannot run away from it. I am not interested in quarrels and fights and postures with whoever or whatever one tiny little bit. If it is pricking your conscience, do not fight it or live in denial. Or you can if you want. Discuss the real issues! The rationale of casting the human suffering as a Doctors problem and NOT a Government one is telling. The onus to provide public health care is squarely government's. Doctors are employees working for Govt - helping it achieve its mandate. It behoves the Govt to pay them adequately for them to continue assisting it in meeting its responsibility. Which brings us to the real issues. Is the Govt playing its role properly? Are the Doctors' asking terms reasonable? What is the Govt's counter offer? Why has the matter been in abeyance since 2013? What you are saying is good and true. You are concentrating on the matter of pay which in our initial engagements you were downplaying. I am concentrating on the matter of the abandoned patients. That's a white one brother! Through out this thread, I have maintained and upheld the Doctors right to agitate for better pay! On abandoned patients - ask the one who under the law is OBLIGATED to ensure public health care provision is real - and collects tax for it! I'm not shy of owning my mistakes if I made them. I may have confused you with another.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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Anti_Burglar wrote:quicksand wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Don't quite see why any reasonable person would want to demonise the Doctors.We have seen their asking terms;- They have also indicated that they are ready for give and take harmonisation. On the other hand - just what is the employers counter proposal?! If any, how reasonable is it?! Going back to the CBA doc as above was it negotiated by the parties - with the employer(s) present and participating and presumably agreeing! We heard from proceedings in court that the only part that was due was registering the CBA doc in Court as required. Hence, assuming that to be the true position, is one party now reneging on matters already discussed and agreed upon! Can Mailu and Co. come clean on these issues! Strong yet ironic words there, Ngalaka. Pray tell, where is the humanity in you if you have the know-how to treat someone but you decide not to and let him/her DIE. Picture someone going through the entire process of dying to the end and you with all your skills and expertise do NOTHING. Yet you complain you are tired of seeing people dying. It would be different if you let him/her get a little bit sicker but did not complete the process of dying, or if you knew nothing. No one is demonising the doctors. They are doing it by themselves, causing anguish and grief to sons, daughters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers. Mixing up issues - deliberately - in order to muddy the waters! Lets be objective for heavens sake! This is a matter of workers agitating for better terms. Quite apart from humanitarian issues. Heck, nothing has stopped you and I from jumping in on humanitarian grounds to pick those in dire need (like the case you highlighted earlier on this thread) and pay for them to get medical attention in Nairobi hospital or abroad! Oh, but there is absolutely no mixup of issues.There is deliberate effort being made to sweep under the carpet the human cost of their action. Humanitarian issues as you call it. As if tears caused can be hidden and or dismissed with a "this is between us and the government only". You cannot run away from it. I am not interested in quarrels and fights and postures with whoever or whatever one tiny little bit. If it is pricking your conscience, do not fight it or live in denial. Or you can if you want. Oh no, no mix-up. You are just short-sighted or naive. You want to point at the doctors and assign blame, declaring only them culpable for the suffering and loss of life. How about the Government (via the Ministry of Health)?...the infighting between the CS and PS, the mismanagement, lack of foresight and planning, corruption and theft...you want to say these haven't had an impact on public health? That incompetency and negligence hasn't led to loss of life? Or those lives aren't important ...only the ones lost at the tipping point huh? How about our role as brainless voters who can't elect competent leaders? As simpletons, even in the thick of things can't separate the issues from the nonsense? Is it this hard for people to reason? Computer literate people even? Jesus Christ. I am not short-sighted or naive. What I have not done, intentionally I hasten to add, is to focus on the government. I let you guys do that and you don't need my help, clearly. A'la pick parts of the narrative that are not inconvenient, uncomfortable and fit with your world view. Got it. I appreciate bias as long as it is not misrepresented as something else.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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alma1 wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:
At least I can say with confidence not everyone agrees with you as you say that the issue is not pay. Unless the Wazuan I'm relying on flip flops.
Therein lies your problem You are writing on wazua to score points. That is why you see arguments with hardwood, masukuma and murchr are fun...While others are just plain tiresome. Say what you really feel and don't apologise..Stop looking for wazua brownie points and don't parrot "the systems" ideas here. lol. What system? I am a free thinker, I go against the grain, aggravating and annoying whoever I may, but with courtesy. And I still feel what some of the doctors are doing is not good.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/19/2015 Posts: 2,871 Location: hapo
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Anti_Burglar wrote:alma1 wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:
At least I can say with confidence not everyone agrees with you as you say that the issue is not pay. Unless the Wazuan I'm relying on flip flops.
Therein lies your problem You are writing on wazua to score points. That is why you see arguments with hardwood, masukuma and murchr are fun...While others are just plain tiresome. Say what you really feel and don't apologise..Stop looking for wazua brownie points and don't parrot "the systems" ideas here. lol. What system? I am a free thinker, I go against the grain, aggravating and annoying whoever I may, but with courtesy. And I still feel what some of the doctors are doing is not good. of course you are. Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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quicksand wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:quicksand wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Don't quite see why any reasonable person would want to demonise the Doctors.We have seen their asking terms;- They have also indicated that they are ready for give and take harmonisation. On the other hand - just what is the employers counter proposal?! If any, how reasonable is it?! Going back to the CBA doc as above was it negotiated by the parties - with the employer(s) present and participating and presumably agreeing! We heard from proceedings in court that the only part that was due was registering the CBA doc in Court as required. Hence, assuming that to be the true position, is one party now reneging on matters already discussed and agreed upon! Can Mailu and Co. come clean on these issues! Strong yet ironic words there, Ngalaka. Pray tell, where is the humanity in you if you have the know-how to treat someone but you decide not to and let him/her DIE. Picture someone going through the entire process of dying to the end and you with all your skills and expertise do NOTHING. Yet you complain you are tired of seeing people dying. It would be different if you let him/her get a little bit sicker but did not complete the process of dying, or if you knew nothing. No one is demonising the doctors. They are doing it by themselves, causing anguish and grief to sons, daughters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers. Mixing up issues - deliberately - in order to muddy the waters! Lets be objective for heavens sake! This is a matter of workers agitating for better terms. Quite apart from humanitarian issues. Heck, nothing has stopped you and I from jumping in on humanitarian grounds to pick those in dire need (like the case you highlighted earlier on this thread) and pay for them to get medical attention in Nairobi hospital or abroad! Oh, but there is absolutely no mixup of issues.There is deliberate effort being made to sweep under the carpet the human cost of their action. Humanitarian issues as you call it. As if tears caused can be hidden and or dismissed with a "this is between us and the government only". You cannot run away from it. I am not interested in quarrels and fights and postures with whoever or whatever one tiny little bit. If it is pricking your conscience, do not fight it or live in denial. Or you can if you want. Oh no, no mix-up. You are just short-sighted or naive. You want to point at the doctors and assign blame, declaring only them culpable for the suffering and loss of life. How about the Government (via the Ministry of Health)?...the infighting between the CS and PS, the mismanagement, lack of foresight and planning, corruption and theft...you want to say these haven't had an impact on public health? That incompetency and negligence hasn't led to loss of life? Or those lives aren't important ...only the ones lost at the tipping point huh? How about our role as brainless voters who can't elect competent leaders? As simpletons, even in the thick of things can't separate the issues from the nonsense? Is it this hard for people to reason? Computer literate people even? Jesus Christ. I am not short-sighted or naive. What I have not done, intentionally I hasten to add, is to focus on the government. I let you guys do that and you don't need my help, clearly. A'la pick parts of the narrative that are not inconvenient, uncomfortable and fit with your world view. Got it. I appreciate bias as long as it is not misrepresented as something else. Yes. The good part is it doesn't invalidate my view.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/22/2010 Posts: 11,522 Location: Nairobi
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Hardwood please...spare us. possunt quia posse videntur
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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Where is Ndii, the so called "renowned economist" when the country needs him to tell us if wanjiko should pay doctors 1m? Ama his "economics expertise" is only on SGR and Waeguru/NYS?
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