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#lipakamatender
Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Separating chaff from the wheat ... An initial casual comparison between Alma's graphic and the real-deal CBA reveals interesting details. The graphic conceals - deliberately or not - that many of easy-on-the eye points are one, two, three, four or even more steps removed from the direct results of implementing the CBA. A concert of actions from myriad entities - not only from the culprit MoH - will be needed to realise such these points. So for now I think we can safely discard this graphic and the sensational confusion of issues it comes with. Aye, off to the bin with it! The CBA is interesting and reasonable and deserves closer acquaintance with.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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The CBA has measures to be taken to create an enabling environment of work for our doctors.
1. Work hours
2. public holidays
3. doctors room
4. call room
5. medical equipment
6. support staff
7. safety and health
8. transport and security
9. staff housing
10. understaffing
All these to me are reasonable and required.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Anti_Burglar wrote:The CBA has measures to be taken to create an enabling environment of work for our doctors.
1. Work hours
2. public holidays What are the provisions of this?
3. doctors room
4. call room
5. medical equipment
6. support staff
7. safety and health
8. transport and security
9. staff housing
10. understaffing
All these to me are reasonable and required. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Chambua kama karanga. 1. Who are healthcare workers? 2. Shorter waiting times - IF these docs were actually working instead of hanging the coats and running around these lines would never be there in the first place. 3. Specialists have to pass in their respective fields, those in place can consult..Its not magic and they are not manufactured "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/19/2015 Posts: 2,871 Location: hapo
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Murchr it's always a pleasure to discuss with you matters of national importance. But unfortunately on this one you are trying to put 3 horses behind a cart.. The Jubilee gov't in their wisdom signed this thing...I know you are ready to tear it apart but that can't wash...The Jubilee gov't is blessed with tecnocrats who said "it is good".. If it was so good in 2003 and the economy under Jubilee has grown at tremendous levels, gosh we even have a railway, then what's stopping them from doing as they promised. It's not laptops we are talking about here...It's people's lives. We may have forgotten about 5 stadiums and laptops lakini hii ni ngumu sana... With all the lack of education I have, I have to say that I know Jubilee are very clever people. So what they sign is good for the country. Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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alma1 wrote:Murchr it's always a pleasure to discuss with you matters of national importance.
But unfortunately on this one you are trying to put 3 horses behind a cart..
The Jubilee gov't in their wisdom signed this thing...I know you are ready to tear it apart but that can't wash...The Jubilee gov't is blessed with tecnocrats who said "it is good"..
If it was so good in 2003 and the economy under Jubilee has grown at tremendous levels, gosh we even have a railway, then what's stopping them from doing as they promised.
It's not laptops we are talking about here...It's people's lives. We may have forgotten about 5 stadiums and laptops lakini hii ni ngumu sana...
With all the lack of education I have, I have to say that I know Jubilee are very clever people. So what they sign is good for the country.
Jubilee came to power in 2013. And Only fools dont change their minds"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/19/2015 Posts: 2,871 Location: hapo
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murchr wrote:alma1 wrote:Murchr it's always a pleasure to discuss with you matters of national importance.
But unfortunately on this one you are trying to put 3 horses behind a cart..
The Jubilee gov't in their wisdom signed this thing...I know you are ready to tear it apart but that can't wash...The Jubilee gov't is blessed with tecnocrats who said "it is good"..
If it was so good in 2003 and the economy under Jubilee has grown at tremendous levels, gosh we even have a railway, then what's stopping them from doing as they promised.
It's not laptops we are talking about here...It's people's lives. We may have forgotten about 5 stadiums and laptops lakini hii ni ngumu sana...
With all the lack of education I have, I have to say that I know Jubilee are very clever people. So what they sign is good for the country.
Jubilee came to power in 2013. And Only fools dont change their minds  Why what happened? They mishandled the Kibaki money? Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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alma1 wrote:murchr wrote:alma1 wrote:Murchr it's always a pleasure to discuss with you matters of national importance.
But unfortunately on this one you are trying to put 3 horses behind a cart..
The Jubilee gov't in their wisdom signed this thing...I know you are ready to tear it apart but that can't wash...The Jubilee gov't is blessed with tecnocrats who said "it is good"..
If it was so good in 2003 and the economy under Jubilee has grown at tremendous levels, gosh we even have a railway, then what's stopping them from doing as they promised.
It's not laptops we are talking about here...It's people's lives. We may have forgotten about 5 stadiums and laptops lakini hii ni ngumu sana...
With all the lack of education I have, I have to say that I know Jubilee are very clever people. So what they sign is good for the country.
Jubilee came to power in 2013. And Only fools dont change their minds Why what happened? They mishandled the Kibaki money? There's nothing special about doctors that they should be treated different than the other govt employees. They can all resign and open their clinics "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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murchr wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:The CBA has measures to be taken to create an enabling environment of work for our doctors.
1. Work hours
2. public holidays What are the provisions of this?
3. doctors room
4. call room
5. medical equipment
6. support staff
7. safety and health
8. transport and security
9. staff housing
10. understaffing
All these to me are reasonable and required. Hello Murchr, We are removing the chaff slowly but surely. Soon they will be gone kabisa, totally. That point says they will be granted paid days off equivalent to the number of holiday days worked. Article 1 is the terms of the agreement Article 2 is the union rights Article 3 is the doctors rights i.e. job group, promotions, resignations, transfers, etc Article 4 is the remuneration Article 5 is the employment conditions Article 6 is leave days Article 7 is benefits e.g. insurance, mortgage etc Article 8 is grievance and arbitration Article 9 is disciplinary procedure The CBA states the parties did not reach an agreement in Article 3 - 1. Doctors job groups 2. 400 residency positions for self sponsored registrars providing services in govt institutions during the course of their training and 3. the entry grade for interns These could be the issues in contention, I suspect. If they are, using our brains we can imagine how can a party implement what he signed that he did not reach an agreement on. Wazua resident lawyers can chip in here over this point. Why has since then an agreement not been reached? But I agree with the gist of the CBA and apart from the above mentioned grey areas it is good to go without further delay.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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murchr wrote:alma1 wrote:murchr wrote:alma1 wrote:Murchr it's always a pleasure to discuss with you matters of national importance.
But unfortunately on this one you are trying to put 3 horses behind a cart..
The Jubilee gov't in their wisdom signed this thing...I know you are ready to tear it apart but that can't wash...The Jubilee gov't is blessed with tecnocrats who said "it is good"..
If it was so good in 2003 and the economy under Jubilee has grown at tremendous levels, gosh we even have a railway, then what's stopping them from doing as they promised.
It's not laptops we are talking about here...It's people's lives. We may have forgotten about 5 stadiums and laptops lakini hii ni ngumu sana...
With all the lack of education I have, I have to say that I know Jubilee are very clever people. So what they sign is good for the country.
Jubilee came to power in 2013. And Only fools dont change their minds Why what happened? They mishandled the Kibaki money? There's nothing special about doctors that they should be treated different than the other govt employees. They can all resign and open their clinics Spoken with the hubris and typical arrogance of a man who is probably covered by their employer and therefore has access to private medical care. If you didn't have two coins to rub together and had to rely on public healthcare, you would filter your pronouncements through your brain first before blurting them out.
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 604
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I agree doctors' grievances are legitimate. However, when it comes to legal issues, they should have involved a lawyer, or good lawyers, to over-see the signing of the CBA.
The CBA as currently crafted will never see the light of day - it is not legally binding, it not a legal document. In simple English - Doctors were conned! From a strictly legal perspective the CBA is just a piece of paper - kama tissue hivi.
Unfortunately, this is happening at the expense of people's lives. Both sides should swallow some pride, if not all of it and agree on something. They should also rope in governors.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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quicksand wrote:murchr wrote:alma1 wrote:murchr wrote:alma1 wrote:Murchr it's always a pleasure to discuss with you matters of national importance.
But unfortunately on this one you are trying to put 3 horses behind a cart..
The Jubilee gov't in their wisdom signed this thing...I know you are ready to tear it apart but that can't wash...The Jubilee gov't is blessed with tecnocrats who said "it is good"..
If it was so good in 2003 and the economy under Jubilee has grown at tremendous levels, gosh we even have a railway, then what's stopping them from doing as they promised.
It's not laptops we are talking about here...It's people's lives. We may have forgotten about 5 stadiums and laptops lakini hii ni ngumu sana...
With all the lack of education I have, I have to say that I know Jubilee are very clever people. So what they sign is good for the country.
Jubilee came to power in 2013. And Only fools dont change their minds Why what happened? They mishandled the Kibaki money? There's nothing special about doctors that they should be treated different than the other govt employees. They can all resign and open their clinics Spoken with the hubris and typical arrogance of a man who is probably covered by their employer and therefore has access to private medical care. If you didn't have two coins to rub together and had to rely on public healthcare, you would filter your pronouncements through your brain first before blurting them out. 1. Yes am insured, but the doctors who treat me in public facilities are the same who will treat me in private facilities. 2. These docs are running clinics where you find equipment bed sheets mattresses marked MOH. Has any taxpayer ever tried to question this? My understanding is that some of these county hospitals are frisking docs when they are coming out of duties and this was one of the reasons they called the strike. 3. Most doctors on payroll are mostly absent but want to be paid in full. How will that human resource aspect be monitored? "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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murchr wrote:quicksand wrote:murchr wrote:alma1 wrote:murchr wrote:alma1 wrote:Murchr it's always a pleasure to discuss with you matters of national importance.
But unfortunately on this one you are trying to put 3 horses behind a cart..
The Jubilee gov't in their wisdom signed this thing...I know you are ready to tear it apart but that can't wash...The Jubilee gov't is blessed with tecnocrats who said "it is good"..
If it was so good in 2003 and the economy under Jubilee has grown at tremendous levels, gosh we even have a railway, then what's stopping them from doing as they promised.
It's not laptops we are talking about here...It's people's lives. We may have forgotten about 5 stadiums and laptops lakini hii ni ngumu sana...
With all the lack of education I have, I have to say that I know Jubilee are very clever people. So what they sign is good for the country.
Jubilee came to power in 2013. And Only fools dont change their minds Why what happened? They mishandled the Kibaki money? There's nothing special about doctors that they should be treated different than the other govt employees. They can all resign and open their clinics Spoken with the hubris and typical arrogance of a man who is probably covered by their employer and therefore has access to private medical care. If you didn't have two coins to rub together and had to rely on public healthcare, you would filter your pronouncements through your brain first before blurting them out. 1. Yes am insured, but the doctors who treat me in public facilities are the same who will treat me in private facilities. 2. These docs are running clinics where you find equipment bed sheets mattresses marked MOH. Has any taxpayer ever tried to question this? My understanding is that some of these county hospitals are frisking docs when they are coming out of duties and this was one of the reasons they called the strike. 3. Most doctors on payroll are mostly absent but want to be paid in full. How will that human resource aspect be monitored? Is public healthcare bad because doctors moonlight or because government has let the sector go derelict over a long period of time? IMHO, the government is to blame for the state of the sector. Squarely. Dead to rights. All the arguments they are making hold no purchase with me....perhaps we as voters are ultimately responsible, cause of our tendencies to keep electing thieves. And yes, I think doctors are entitled to feel special. They mustered high grades and survived a grueling course at University; They are key pillars in an important sector. Let's not pretend. Not all civil servants are equal. Doctors to the government are like software engineers to Silicon Valley. Talent is not commodity. Government ought to realize cause of moonlighting, a circumstance that it has brought about by gross negligence, it cannot starve doctors cause they have other means of income; Consequently, they can dig in and really prolong this. It is time to get serious, reform minded people on the negotiating table. And it is time Kenyan voters got less stupid too.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/8/2008 Posts: 1,575
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/8/2008 Posts: 1,575
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Why's Wasilwas court thumping a bare bony chest? I care!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/22/2010 Posts: 11,522 Location: Nairobi
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thuks wrote:Why's Wasilwas court thumping a bare bony chest? She made a monumental blunder from the word go... possunt quia posse videntur
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/8/2008 Posts: 1,575
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maka wrote:thuks wrote:Why's Wasilwas court thumping a bare bony chest? She made a monumental blunder from the word go... And the higher court refused to take the monkey from her back.  I care!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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quicksand wrote:murchr wrote:quicksand wrote:murchr wrote:alma1 wrote:murchr wrote:alma1 wrote:Murchr it's always a pleasure to discuss with you matters of national importance.
But unfortunately on this one you are trying to put 3 horses behind a cart..
The Jubilee gov't in their wisdom signed this thing...I know you are ready to tear it apart but that can't wash...The Jubilee gov't is blessed with tecnocrats who said "it is good"..
If it was so good in 2003 and the economy under Jubilee has grown at tremendous levels, gosh we even have a railway, then what's stopping them from doing as they promised.
It's not laptops we are talking about here...It's people's lives. We may have forgotten about 5 stadiums and laptops lakini hii ni ngumu sana...
With all the lack of education I have, I have to say that I know Jubilee are very clever people. So what they sign is good for the country.
Jubilee came to power in 2013. And Only fools dont change their minds Why what happened? They mishandled the Kibaki money? There's nothing special about doctors that they should be treated different than the other govt employees. They can all resign and open their clinics Spoken with the hubris and typical arrogance of a man who is probably covered by their employer and therefore has access to private medical care. If you didn't have two coins to rub together and had to rely on public healthcare, you would filter your pronouncements through your brain first before blurting them out. 1. Yes am insured, but the doctors who treat me in public facilities are the same who will treat me in private facilities. 2. These docs are running clinics where you find equipment bed sheets mattresses marked MOH. Has any taxpayer ever tried to question this? My understanding is that some of these county hospitals are frisking docs when they are coming out of duties and this was one of the reasons they called the strike. 3. Most doctors on payroll are mostly absent but want to be paid in full. How will that human resource aspect be monitored? Is public healthcare bad because doctors moonlight or because government has let the sector go derelict over a long period of time? IMHO, the government is to blame for the state of the sector. Squarely. Dead to rights. All the arguments they are making hold no purchase with me....perhaps we as voters are ultimately responsible, cause of our tendencies to keep electing thieves. And yes, I think doctors are entitled to feel special. They mustered high grades and survived a grueling course at University; They are key pillars in an important sector. Let's not pretend. Not all civil servants are equal. Doctors to the government are like software engineers to Silicon Valley. Talent is not commodity. Government ought to realize cause of moonlighting, a circumstance that it has brought about by gross negligence, it cannot starve doctors cause they have other means of income; Consequently, they can dig in and really prolong this. It is time to get serious, reform minded people on the negotiating table. And it is time Kenyan voters got less stupid too. That's where you go wrong. Every job is important. Even the man who's job is to swim in the sewer so that your shit unblocks the drain is also important. In this context a doctor should not feel superior than the person incinerating stuff. Any doctor feeling they should be compensated more because he went to school should leave the public service and go private - into the business of giving care. If anything then, the cost should be passed to the patient. Kenyans should not pretend to like/admire the Scandinavian ways and systems yet demand for capitalistic salaries and allowances. If you want exorbitant salaries, privatize the entire health sector. Otherwise settle for the allocation in the budget. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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murchr wrote:
That's where you go wrong. Every job is important. Even the man who's job is to swim in the sewer so that your shit unblocks the drain is also important. In this context a doctor should not feel superior than the person incinerating stuff. Any doctor feeling they should be compensated more because he went to school should leave the public service and go private - into the business of giving care. If anything then, the cost should be passed to the patient.
Kenyans should not pretend to like/admire the Scandinavian ways and systems yet demand for capitalistic salaries and allowances.
If you want exorbitant salaries, privatize the entire health sector. Otherwise settle for the allocation in the budget.
In that case then there should be no point in having unions for persons working for the Govt. Doctors, Teachers, Lecturers, Nurses, KAA, KPA employees, and all of the civil servants. Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Ngalaka wrote:murchr wrote:
That's where you go wrong. Every job is important. Even the man who's job is to swim in the sewer so that your shit unblocks the drain is also important. In this context a doctor should not feel superior than the person incinerating stuff. Any doctor feeling they should be compensated more because he went to school should leave the public service and go private - into the business of giving care. If anything then, the cost should be passed to the patient.
Kenyans should not pretend to like/admire the Scandinavian ways and systems yet demand for capitalistic salaries and allowances.
If you want exorbitant salaries, privatize the entire health sector. Otherwise settle for the allocation in the budget.
In that case then there should be no point in having unions for persons working for the Govt. Doctors, Teachers, Lecturers, Nurses, KAA, KPA employees, and all of the civil servants. Unions are dying forces "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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