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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 13,503 Location: nairobi
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alma1 wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:
I have not had the chance of reading the bloggers, but nevertheless what you have put is still not clear.
So if for instance the CBA is implemented, the kin of patients will not fundraise anymore to pay for treatment? That would be like utopia!
Or on more health care workers in public service to treat our population, that would mean the training institutions churn out more personnel over and above the many they produce each year for starters? If the CBA is implemented the number of medics graduating would rise? Or where would the 'more' medics in public service come from?
I think truth has been the casualty in this conflict.
There's no conflict as you want to put it. It's just one side that is refusing to do what they promised to do..That's not a conflict that's being a liar. I don't know why you want to push the pay agenda but let me help you a bit. Part of the CBA requires the gov't to facilitate hospitals with proper tools and equipment. Murchr has his own idea on how that should be implemented...But the issue is that the gov't whether they want to to call it central or county must provide proper tools and equipment. I know that Jubilee really loves this section. After all they boast about all those cancer machines they have provided all over the world. But as you can see from the stories above, the reality is a bit different. No blood, no meds, no gloves...I promise you there's no tissue paper in hospital and you have to go with your won.. Anti Burglar, do you think that can help the country? Another issue....The doctors and this gov't agreed to increase the medical staff in the health care industry...Why? Because for the doctors it means they work humane hours. Jubilee should also love this aspect. After all they said sijui how many million jobs that were to come after the electric trains. Think about the nurses, clinical officers, even sweepers in well equipped hospitals...The economy would boooooom! But the reality is different. 4k doctors was the boast by the CS this morning...40 million Kenyans... don't even want to do that math. Anti Burglar, do you think that employeeing more Kenyans is a good thing? The CS today confessed on live TV that if they pay doctors, private hospitals would die? mmmmhhhh so what if private hospitals died? Is it better for my cucu not to get diabetics medicine at Tumu Tumu hospital and die than the CS and his people pay 50k a night at MP Shah? I know why this is a hot potato that even Raira is afraid to touch... These people have killed the public health care system from the days of Moi...They have no one to blame. Raira can't blame, Uhuru, Uhuru can't blame Kibaki, Kibaki can't blame Raira.. They have been total failures and even Moi is shocked. Now instead they shall blame 7 young men and women for deciding not to see HIV positive patients sharing the same beds with diabetics. All they shall talk about is their salaries. For an mpig to talk about salaries is an early indicator of Alzheimers. Terrible turn of events
HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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alma1 wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:
I have not had the chance of reading the bloggers, but nevertheless what you have put is still not clear.
So if for instance the CBA is implemented, the kin of patients will not fundraise anymore to pay for treatment? That would be like utopia!
Or on more health care workers in public service to treat our population, that would mean the training institutions churn out more personnel over and above the many they produce each year for starters? If the CBA is implemented the number of medics graduating would rise? Or where would the 'more' medics in public service come from?
I think truth has been the casualty in this conflict.
There's no conflict as you want to put it. It's just one side that is refusing to do what they promised to do..That's not a conflict that's being a liar. I don't know why you want to push the pay agenda but let me help you a bit. Part of the CBA requires the gov't to facilitate hospitals with proper tools and equipment. Murchr has his own idea on how that should be implemented...But the issue is that the gov't whether they want to to call it central or county must provide proper tools and equipment. I know that Jubilee really loves this section. After all they boast about all those cancer machines they have provided all over the world. But as you can see from the stories above, the reality is a bit different. No blood, no meds, no gloves...I promise you there's no tissue paper in hospital and you have to go with your won.. Anti Burglar, do you think that can help the country? Another issue....The doctors and this gov't agreed to increase the medical staff in the health care industry...Why? Because for the doctors it means they work humane hours. Jubilee should also love this aspect. After all they said sijui how many million jobs that were to come after the electric trains. Think about the nurses, clinical officers, even sweepers in well equipped hospitals...The economy would boooooom! But the reality is different. 4k doctors was the boast by the CS this morning...40 million Kenyans... don't even want to do that math. Anti Burglar, do you think that employeeing more Kenyans is a good thing? The CS today confessed on live TV that if they pay doctors, private hospitals would die? mmmmhhhh so what if private hospitals died? Is it better for my cucu not to get diabetics medicine at Tumu Tumu hospital and die than the CS and his people pay 50k a night at MP Shah? I know why this is a hot potato that even Raira is afraid to touch... These people have killed the public health care system from the days of Moi...They have no one to blame. Raira can't blame, Uhuru, Uhuru can't blame Kibaki, Kibaki can't blame Raira.. They have been total failures and even Moi is shocked. Now instead they shall blame 7 young men and women for deciding not to see HIV positive patients sharing the same beds with diabetics. All they shall talk about is their salaries. For an mpig to talk about salaries is an early indicator of Alzheimers. Hhhhhhmmmmmm ............
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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Salary agitation is but just one of the demands. I am at loss why some here want to present salary agitation as an illegitimate issue! Doctors deserve a decent pay. Citing incidental issues as reason why Doctors should not be out demanding for better pay is baffling. Of course working environment, tools and other terms are equally legitimate as grounds for agitation. Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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The Court matter was however not well handled at the initial stages. Hope now the Doctors are getting the right advice on that score. Was the ruling appealed or can they (Doctors Union leadership) demonstrate that they tried their best to call off the strike but the larger Doctors fraternity rejected their call! The bottom line here is - are the sentences still in force and or can the court be demonstrably convinced that the leadership is not to blame anymore. Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/15/2006 Posts: 3,905
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Court suspends doctors' sentence for another 5 days. Ngalaka wrote:The Court matter was however not well handled at the initial stages.
Hope now the Doctors are getting the right advice on that score.
Was the ruling appealed or can they (Doctors Union leadership) demonstrate that they tried their best to call off the strike but the larger Doctors fraternity rejected their call!
The bottom line here is - are the sentences still in force and or can the court be demonstrably convinced that the leadership is not to blame anymore.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Ngalaka wrote:Salary agitation is but just one of the demands.
I am at loss why some here want to present salary agitation as an illegitimate issue!
Doctors deserve a decent pay.
Citing incidental issues as reason why Doctors should not be out demanding for better pay is baffling.
Of course working environment, tools and other terms are equally legitimate as grounds for agitation.
Incidental? At least two of their leading lights - by themselves - have hinted to it's significance and importance in their earlier lives. Incidental, you say? Then indeed, its baffling! It is no shame to ask for better pay and simple follow up questions can be quickly dispensed with without fuss.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Does anyone have the particular CBA in question? Yaani not a summary or illustration of key points or things like that. For those who want to peruse it for themselves, it would help a great deal if it were widely circulated so Kenyans can make informed choices over it. Going to their KMPDU Website (Documents) as the primary source avails nothing. Documents including that CBA are safely locked away and you have to log in as a member to see any apparently. On the other side we have a Press Statement by the Ministry of Health from which we can infer what is in that CBA. Like I said, these are easy questions that should not hinder more critical life and death issues.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/19/2015 Posts: 2,871 Location: hapo
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Anti Buglar All that you need to know is that the gov't is refusing to do what it promised to do...In fact, even your own link we have this quote "The Ministry of Health and the KMPDU signed a CBA in June 2013 after signing a Recognition Agreement in March the same year. " Just that one statement is enough to tell you who is lying here. The gov't has refused to register this CBA. An error captured in court. And if you are busy arguing here against them and you have not taken the effort after 50 days to know what is in that CBA, please advise us under what legs you are standing on. Doctors are wakas. They deserve better pay and better working conditions. The gov't of Jubilee signed an agreement with them. They should pay just as quickly as they paid for Kabura's gunias. Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Ahh Alma, lol,
but I do not want to be spoon fed with information and news by media, bloggers or anyone. And I do not think I have taken a position yet who to be with or against - maybe I've been a bit critical to one side but I can yet be critical to the other side too. It is sad that my questions are being taken as being against one side hence attract the corresponding wrath. But the other side has not praised me, perhaps they don't see me as being on their side, if it is any consolation.
Truth be told I had not paid particular attention to this strike story. But it's persistence I find striking hence my desire to know more about it - the issues at stake, particularly. Yet information about the issues is scarce but ironically are all over, mara salaries, mara working conditions, you get my point?
But yule mtu wa mawakas amewasaidia? They should seek his help.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/19/2015 Posts: 2,871 Location: hapo
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Anti_Burglar wrote:Ahh Alma, lol,
but I do not want to be spoon fed with information and news by media, bloggers or anyone. And I do not think I have taken a position yet who to be with or against - maybe I've been a bit critical to one side but I can yet be critical to the other side too. It is sad that my questions are being taken as being against one side hence attract the corresponding wrath. But the other side has not praised me, perhaps they don't see me as being on their side, if it is any consolation.
Truth be told I had not paid particular attention to this strike story. But it's persistence I find striking hence my desire to know more about it - the issues at stake, particularly. Yet information about the issues is scarce but ironically are all over, mara salaries, mara working conditions, you get my point?
But yule mtu wa mawakas amewasaidia? They should seek his help. When you see young men and women in Kenya stick to their principles you should be asking other questions. Not wondering why they would do such a thing at the risk of being called criminals by a court that called them sewage in a ruling. I still can't believe a judge who claims she's an arbiter can call any negotiating party sewage. She should just resign from the case. I know in Kenya that its hard to believe that anyone can do something good for the sake of the nation. But we do have professionals in this country. Unlike a CS who confesses on live TV that they won't sign coz it will kill private business. we should be asking if he has a private hospital or shares in one. Not attacking this young patriots who are surely going to be tending to you next time the corrupt policeman allows an overloaded matatu to hit your nice family car. Hii Kenya itanionyesha mengi. Where the citizen is actively fighting against his own welfare. Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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Anti_Burglar wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Salary agitation is but just one of the demands.
I am at loss why some here want to present salary agitation as an illegitimate issue!
Doctors deserve a decent pay.
Citing incidental issues as reason why Doctors should not be out demanding for better pay is baffling.
Of course working environment, tools and other terms are equally legitimate as grounds for agitation.
Incidental? At least two of their leading lights - by themselves - have hinted to it's significance and importance in their earlier lives. Incidental, you say? Then indeed, its baffling! It is no shame to ask for better pay and simple follow up questions can be quickly dispensed with without fuss. My thinking is that we should be looking at the bigger picture, not personalities, theatrics or other side shows. Is the Doctors fraternity,(not the leadership) justified to agitate for better pay and reasonable working conditions. Is the employer addressing these issues squarely or is it engaged in innuendos and attempts at passing the buck - as to whom the responsibility of ensuring the general populace has access to reasonable health care belongs! The Government has a contract with the people to ensure that the people have exactly that. Now the other question should be; Is what the Doctors are asking within what is to be considered reasonable! Well, that is what we should be debating Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/8/2008 Posts: 1,575
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alma1 wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Ahh Alma, lol,
but I do not want to be spoon fed with information and news by media, bloggers or anyone. And I do not think I have taken a position yet who to be with or against - maybe I've been a bit critical to one side but I can yet be critical to the other side too. It is sad that my questions are being taken as being against one side hence attract the corresponding wrath. But the other side has not praised me, perhaps they don't see me as being on their side, if it is any consolation.
Truth be told I had not paid particular attention to this strike story. But it's persistence I find striking hence my desire to know more about it - the issues at stake, particularly. Yet information about the issues is scarce but ironically are all over, mara salaries, mara working conditions, you get my point?
But yule mtu wa mawakas amewasaidia? They should seek his help. When you see young men and women in Kenya stick to their principles you should be asking other questions. Not wondering why they would do such a thing at the risk of being called criminals by a court that called them sewage in a ruling. I still can't believe a judge who claims she's an arbiter can call any negotiating party sewage. She should just resign from the case. I know in Kenya that its hard to believe that anyone can do something good for the sake of the nation. But we do have professionals in this country. Unlike a CS who confesses on live TV that they won't sign coz it will kill private business. we should be asking if he has a private hospital or shares in one. Not attacking this young patriots who are surely going to be tending to you next time the corrupt policeman allows an overloaded matatu to hit your nice family car. Hii Kenya itanionyesha mengi. Where the citizen is actively fighting against his own welfare. Sewage? This is more serious than nose pinching. Someone should make a formal complaint. I care!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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thuks wrote:alma1 wrote:
When you see young men and women in Kenya stick to their principles you should be asking other questions.
Not wondering why they would do such a thing at the risk of being called criminals by a court that called them sewage in a ruling. I still can't believe a judge who claims she's an arbiter can call any negotiating party sewage. She should just resign from the case.
I know in Kenya that its hard to believe that anyone can do something good for the sake of the nation. But we do have professionals in this country.
Unlike a CS who confesses on live TV that they won't sign coz it will kill private business. we should be asking if he has a private hospital or shares in one.
Not attacking this young patriots who are surely going to be tending to you next time the corrupt policeman allows an overloaded matatu to hit your nice family car.
Hii Kenya itanionyesha mengi. Where the citizen is actively fighting against his own welfare.
Sewage? This is more serious than nose pinching. Someone should make a formal complaint. That also needs to be contextualised. There is some maxim in the legal profession that they call 'coming to court with clean hands' The contrast is coming to court dirty - hence the stinking analogy. Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Have they resigned? "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/19/2015 Posts: 2,871 Location: hapo
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In other news MPigs to earn another 4 billion on top of earning the respect of Kenyan voters. Yes 4 billion. 4000 doctors are asking for 8 billion for gloves in the hospitial 400 fellas who got C's to get 4 billion... Quote:In addition, each MP will take home Sh11,011,200 as a gratuity for service once their term expires on election day. This too is in the Constitution.
This will cost taxpayers at least Sh4.58 billion, despite the fact that many MPs will be reelected and earn a similar sum when their next terms expire in 2022. http://www.the-star.co.k...for-two-months_c1495272IThieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/21/2013 Posts: 2,841 Location: Here
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Anti_Burglar wrote:Does anyone have the particular CBA in question? Yaani not a summary or illustration of key points or things like that. For those who want to peruse it for themselves, it would help a great deal if it were widely circulated so Kenyans can make informed choices over it. ... C.B.A.Life is like playing a violin solo in public and learning the instrument as one goes on.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/21/2013 Posts: 2,841 Location: Here
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alma1 wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:
I have not had the chance of reading the bloggers, but nevertheless what you have put is still not clear.
So if for instance the CBA is implemented, the kin of patients will not fundraise anymore to pay for treatment? That would be like utopia!
Or on more health care workers in public service to treat our population, that would mean the training institutions churn out more personnel over and above the many they produce each year for starters? If the CBA is implemented the number of medics graduating would rise? Or where would the 'more' medics in public service come from?
I think truth has been the casualty in this conflict.
There's no conflict as you want to put it. It's just one side that is refusing to do what they promised to do..That's not a conflict that's being a liar. I don't know why you want to push the pay agenda but let me help you a bit. Part of the CBA requires the gov't to facilitate hospitals with proper tools and equipment. Murchr has his own idea on how that should be implemented...But the issue is that the gov't whether they want to to call it central or county must provide proper tools and equipment. I know that Jubilee really loves this section. After all they boast about all those cancer machines they have provided all over the world. But as you can see from the stories above, the reality is a bit different. No blood, no meds, no gloves...I promise you there's no tissue paper in hospital and you have to go with your won.. Anti Burglar, do you think that can help the country? Another issue....The doctors and this gov't agreed to increase the medical staff in the health care industry...Why? Because for the doctors it means they work humane hours. Jubilee should also love this aspect. After all they said sijui how many million jobs that were to come after the electric trains. Think about the nurses, clinical officers, even sweepers in well equipped hospitals...The economy would boooooom! But the reality is different. 4k doctors was the boast by the CS this morning...40 million Kenyans... don't even want to do that math. Anti Burglar, do you think that employeeing more Kenyans is a good thing? The CS today confessed on live TV that if they pay doctors, private hospitals would die? mmmmhhhh so what if private hospitals died? Is it better for my cucu not to get diabetics medicine at Tumu Tumu hospital and die than the CS and his people pay 50k a night at MP Shah? I know why this is a hot potato that even Raira is afraid to touch... These people have killed the public health care system from the days of Moi...They have no one to blame. Raira can't blame, Uhuru, Uhuru can't blame Kibaki, Kibaki can't blame Raira.. They have been total failures and even Moi is shocked. Now instead they shall blame 7 young men and women for deciding not to see HIV positive patients sharing the same beds with diabetics. All they shall talk about is their salaries. For an mpig to talk about salaries is an early indicator of Alzheimers. CS Rotich's reasoning on Doctor's StrikeLife is like playing a violin solo in public and learning the instrument as one goes on.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/15/2006 Posts: 3,905
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Ipsos Synovate mouthpiece http://www.the-star.co.k...s-strike-ipsos_c1496561
ONLY 33% of Kenyans want the medics to keep off work until their pay demands are met. 58% of Kenyans want the health sector reverted to the national government. 46% Cord supporters back the strike, 23% of Jubilee supporters back the doctors.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Rankaz13 wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Does anyone have the particular CBA in question? Yaani not a summary or illustration of key points or things like that. For those who want to peruse it for themselves, it would help a great deal if it were widely circulated so Kenyans can make informed choices over it. ... C.B.A. Ahhhhh! Thank you, thank you Mr. Rankaz. You, the man!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Separating chaff from the wheat ... An initial casual comparison between Alma's graphic and the real-deal CBA reveals interesting details. The graphic conceals - deliberately or not - that many of easy-on-the eye points are one, two, three, four or even more steps removed from the direct results of implementing the CBA. A concert of actions from myriad entities - not only from the culprit MoH - will be needed to realise such these points. So for now I think we can safely discard this graphic and the sensational confusion of issues it comes with. Aye, off to the bin with it!
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