Wazua
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Kenya Airways...why ignore..
Rank: Chief Joined: 1/3/2007 Posts: 18,188 Location: Nairobi
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Bottomline: KQ's operational and financial performance is going from bad to worse. Let's wait for the detailed 1H numbers. Then the 2H numbers. Another loss is possible for 2H. The hole get deeper and deeper. Warren Buffett: “We select such investments on a long-term basis, weighing the same factors as would be involved in the purchase of 100% of an operating business: (1) favorable long-term economic characteristics; (2) competent and honest management; (3) purchase price attractive when measured against the yardstick of value to a private owner; and (4) an industry with which we are familiar and whose long-term business characteristics we feel competent to judge.” Does KQ meet: (1) Perhaps but there's a lot of competition. (2) No (3) No [Huge levels of debt. Negative Equity] (4) N/A but Buffett doesn't like airlines as a business. Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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ArrestedDev wrote:murchr wrote:maka wrote:murchr wrote:Truth be told, i wouldn't fly KQ because of the staff. Outsourced employees have no business asking for a change in leadership. (1) In solidarity with the pilots (2) They want to be permanent and pensionable (3) Stories of not being treated as well as the other staff 1. When their services are terminated, will the pilots be in solidarity with them? 2. If they want to be "permanent and pensionable" shouldn't they ask their employer? 3. What amounts to being treated well? The genesis of worker problems in Kenya is this thing called "permanent and pensionable", it breeds complacency. Look at the public sector and you will find the evidence in plenty. Its every employees obligation to keep a job and its not a RIGHT to have one. If you are in the service industry you should work so hard to keep your customers coming. Those passengers don't care who is in management, they are cursing and planning to not ever fly KQ again. I have said b4 and I will say it again, KQ's issues are being prolonged by the employees - staff/contractors. Their main management problem was not having a plan B an C after being let down by Boeing, but these employees have to work with management without inconveniencing others. The issues at KQ are more deeper than just working with the management. This stupid outsourcing of cabin crew was a brain child of Ngunze backed by Naikuni. There was nothing like this before the 2012. Ngunze and Naikuni are raking in kickbacks through this arrangement until now. This outsourcing ended up costing the Co. an arm and leg. The facts are out in the public domain. The owners of this Co.s are known. The stupid decisions they took are now haunting them to the detriment of the Company. In-flight staff especially Cabin crew are the face of the airline. The company should be in control of them and not through another shell company that does not know what an airline business is. The main reason why KQ product has deteriorated is because of this arrangement where the management does not have say when it comes to cabin crew. What's the argument about lower cadre staff being permanent and pensionable. Managers and the directors are the ones who should be on contract. Look at who is engaging in fraud, are they not the managers and the directors? Lower cadre staff are doing their job and if some are engaging in fraud then they are copying from the managers. The genesis of all the issues in KQ emanates from the senior management and not lower cadre staff and pilots. Let's not be fooled by anyone. They hide their stupid and shallow decisions by blaming employees and you buy their arguments? When senior managers ran out of ideas and instead of resigning they turn their guns on staff. 1. All employees should be on contract that permanent thing should cease, the 50s are gone. KQ's management is overpaid no doubt about that. However, 2. Outsourcing part of the cabin crew is an industry standard, Finnair, Ryanair, do it. Norwegian recently divided their cabin crew into a new daughter company called Cabin Services Norway/Denmark (CSN/CSD). Swedish cabin crew is also outsourced to an employment agency. A flight attendant is not a core employee soon robots will be handing out the diners and giving safety directions. Its 2016 "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/29/2016 Posts: 898 Location: Nairobi
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murchr wrote:ArrestedDev wrote:murchr wrote:maka wrote:murchr wrote:Truth be told, i wouldn't fly KQ because of the staff. Outsourced employees have no business asking for a change in leadership. (1) In solidarity with the pilots (2) They want to be permanent and pensionable (3) Stories of not being treated as well as the other staff 1. When their services are terminated, will the pilots be in solidarity with them? 2. If they want to be "permanent and pensionable" shouldn't they ask their employer? 3. What amounts to being treated well? The genesis of worker problems in Kenya is this thing called "permanent and pensionable", it breeds complacency. Look at the public sector and you will find the evidence in plenty. Its every employees obligation to keep a job and its not a RIGHT to have one. If you are in the service industry you should work so hard to keep your customers coming. Those passengers don't care who is in management, they are cursing and planning to not ever fly KQ again. I have said b4 and I will say it again, KQ's issues are being prolonged by the employees - staff/contractors. Their main management problem was not having a plan B an C after being let down by Boeing, but these employees have to work with management without inconveniencing others. The issues at KQ are more deeper than just working with the management. This stupid outsourcing of cabin crew was a brain child of Ngunze backed by Naikuni. There was nothing like this before the 2012. Ngunze and Naikuni are raking in kickbacks through this arrangement until now. This outsourcing ended up costing the Co. an arm and leg. The facts are out in the public domain. The owners of this Co.s are known. The stupid decisions they took are now haunting them to the detriment of the Company. In-flight staff especially Cabin crew are the face of the airline. The company should be in control of them and not through another shell company that does not know what an airline business is. The main reason why KQ product has deteriorated is because of this arrangement where the management does not have say when it comes to cabin crew. What's the argument about lower cadre staff being permanent and pensionable. Managers and the directors are the ones who should be on contract. Look at who is engaging in fraud, are they not the managers and the directors? Lower cadre staff are doing their job and if some are engaging in fraud then they are copying from the managers. The genesis of all the issues in KQ emanates from the senior management and not lower cadre staff and pilots. Let's not be fooled by anyone. They hide their stupid and shallow decisions by blaming employees and you buy their arguments? When senior managers ran out of ideas and instead of resigning they turn their guns on staff. 1. All employees should be on contract that permanent thing should cease, the 50s are gone. KQ's management is overpaid no doubt about that. However, 2. Outsourcing part of the cabin crew is an industry standard, Finnair, Ryanair, do it. Norwegian recently divided their cabin crew into a new daughter company called Cabin Services Norway/Denmark (CSN/CSD). Swedish cabin crew is also outsourced to an employment agency. A flight attendant is not a core employee soon robots will be handing out the diners and giving safety directions. Its 2016 It's cheaper in the long run to have lower cadre employees as permanent and pensionable especially when use of contractors open an avenue for corruption as in the case of KQ. Gratuity at the end of every year is expensive since the rate of gratuity is higher than that of employer contribution to a defined benefit scheme. What works for Europe will not work in Kenya. Outsourcing of cabin crew is common with LCCs such as Ryanair as you have just mentioned they are in such an arrangement due to the cost of labour in Europe. Kenya is a labour exporting country with cheap labour and hence cannot be compared with Europe.KQ as a legacy airline need to have a product that is unmatched in order to compete in a field that is dominated by cut throat competition.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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ArrestedDev wrote:murchr wrote:ArrestedDev wrote:murchr wrote:maka wrote:murchr wrote:Truth be told, i wouldn't fly KQ because of the staff. Outsourced employees have no business asking for a change in leadership. (1) In solidarity with the pilots (2) They want to be permanent and pensionable (3) Stories of not being treated as well as the other staff 1. When their services are terminated, will the pilots be in solidarity with them? 2. If they want to be "permanent and pensionable" shouldn't they ask their employer? 3. What amounts to being treated well? The genesis of worker problems in Kenya is this thing called "permanent and pensionable", it breeds complacency. Look at the public sector and you will find the evidence in plenty. Its every employees obligation to keep a job and its not a RIGHT to have one. If you are in the service industry you should work so hard to keep your customers coming. Those passengers don't care who is in management, they are cursing and planning to not ever fly KQ again. I have said b4 and I will say it again, KQ's issues are being prolonged by the employees - staff/contractors. Their main management problem was not having a plan B an C after being let down by Boeing, but these employees have to work with management without inconveniencing others. The issues at KQ are more deeper than just working with the management. This stupid outsourcing of cabin crew was a brain child of Ngunze backed by Naikuni. There was nothing like this before the 2012. Ngunze and Naikuni are raking in kickbacks through this arrangement until now. This outsourcing ended up costing the Co. an arm and leg. The facts are out in the public domain. The owners of this Co.s are known. The stupid decisions they took are now haunting them to the detriment of the Company. In-flight staff especially Cabin crew are the face of the airline. The company should be in control of them and not through another shell company that does not know what an airline business is. The main reason why KQ product has deteriorated is because of this arrangement where the management does not have say when it comes to cabin crew. What's the argument about lower cadre staff being permanent and pensionable. Managers and the directors are the ones who should be on contract. Look at who is engaging in fraud, are they not the managers and the directors? Lower cadre staff are doing their job and if some are engaging in fraud then they are copying from the managers. The genesis of all the issues in KQ emanates from the senior management and not lower cadre staff and pilots. Let's not be fooled by anyone. They hide their stupid and shallow decisions by blaming employees and you buy their arguments? When senior managers ran out of ideas and instead of resigning they turn their guns on staff. 1. All employees should be on contract that permanent thing should cease, the 50s are gone. KQ's management is overpaid no doubt about that. However, 2. Outsourcing part of the cabin crew is an industry standard, Finnair, Ryanair, do it. Norwegian recently divided their cabin crew into a new daughter company called Cabin Services Norway/Denmark (CSN/CSD). Swedish cabin crew is also outsourced to an employment agency. A flight attendant is not a core employee soon robots will be handing out the diners and giving safety directions. Its 2016 It's cheaper in the long run to have lower cadre employees as permanent and pensionable especially when use of contractors open an avenue for corruption as in the case of KQ. Gratuity at the end of every year is expensive since the rate of gratuity is higher than that of employer contribution to a defined benefit scheme. What works for Europe will not work in Kenya. Outsourcing of cabin crew is common with LCCs such as Ryanair as you have just mentioned they are in such an arrangement due to the cost of labour in Europe. Kenya is a labour exporting country with cheap labour and hence cannot be compared with Europe.KQ as a legacy airline need to have a product that is unmatched in order to compete in a field that is dominated by cut throat competition. No....Because you have to keep increasing the salary and pension dues of a permanent employee every year, plus when it comes to terminating employment, you have to give them a handshake. Very expensive, that's why companies are running away from that. What is working elsewhere will soon be the industry norm. Change is the only constant adapt or perish. They may all find themselves without a job. The labour costs are unsustainable "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/29/2016 Posts: 898 Location: Nairobi
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murchr wrote:ArrestedDev wrote:murchr wrote:ArrestedDev wrote:murchr wrote:maka wrote:murchr wrote:Truth be told, i wouldn't fly KQ because of the staff. Outsourced employees have no business asking for a change in leadership. (1) In solidarity with the pilots (2) They want to be permanent and pensionable (3) Stories of not being treated as well as the other staff 1. When their services are terminated, will the pilots be in solidarity with them? 2. If they want to be "permanent and pensionable" shouldn't they ask their employer? 3. What amounts to being treated well? The genesis of worker problems in Kenya is this thing called "permanent and pensionable", it breeds complacency. Look at the public sector and you will find the evidence in plenty. Its every employees obligation to keep a job and its not a RIGHT to have one. If you are in the service industry you should work so hard to keep your customers coming. Those passengers don't care who is in management, they are cursing and planning to not ever fly KQ again. I have said b4 and I will say it again, KQ's issues are being prolonged by the employees - staff/contractors. Their main management problem was not having a plan B an C after being let down by Boeing, but these employees have to work with management without inconveniencing others. The issues at KQ are more deeper than just working with the management. This stupid outsourcing of cabin crew was a brain child of Ngunze backed by Naikuni. There was nothing like this before the 2012. Ngunze and Naikuni are raking in kickbacks through this arrangement until now. This outsourcing ended up costing the Co. an arm and leg. The facts are out in the public domain. The owners of this Co.s are known. The stupid decisions they took are now haunting them to the detriment of the Company. In-flight staff especially Cabin crew are the face of the airline. The company should be in control of them and not through another shell company that does not know what an airline business is. The main reason why KQ product has deteriorated is because of this arrangement where the management does not have say when it comes to cabin crew. What's the argument about lower cadre staff being permanent and pensionable. Managers and the directors are the ones who should be on contract. Look at who is engaging in fraud, are they not the managers and the directors? Lower cadre staff are doing their job and if some are engaging in fraud then they are copying from the managers. The genesis of all the issues in KQ emanates from the senior management and not lower cadre staff and pilots. Let's not be fooled by anyone. They hide their stupid and shallow decisions by blaming employees and you buy their arguments? When senior managers ran out of ideas and instead of resigning they turn their guns on staff. 1. All employees should be on contract that permanent thing should cease, the 50s are gone. KQ's management is overpaid no doubt about that. However, 2. Outsourcing part of the cabin crew is an industry standard, Finnair, Ryanair, do it. Norwegian recently divided their cabin crew into a new daughter company called Cabin Services Norway/Denmark (CSN/CSD). Swedish cabin crew is also outsourced to an employment agency. A flight attendant is not a core employee soon robots will be handing out the diners and giving safety directions. Its 2016 It's cheaper in the long run to have lower cadre employees as permanent and pensionable especially when use of contractors open an avenue for corruption as in the case of KQ. Gratuity at the end of every year is expensive since the rate of gratuity is higher than that of employer contribution to a defined benefit scheme. What works for Europe will not work in Kenya. Outsourcing of cabin crew is common with LCCs such as Ryanair as you have just mentioned they are in such an arrangement due to the cost of labour in Europe. Kenya is a labour exporting country with cheap labour and hence cannot be compared with Europe.KQ as a legacy airline need to have a product that is unmatched in order to compete in a field that is dominated by cut throat competition. No....Because you have to keep increasing the salary and pension dues of a permanent employee every year, plus when it comes to terminating employment, you have to give them a handshake. Very expensive, that's why companies are running away from that. What is working elsewhere will soon be the industry norm. Change is the only constant adapt or perish. They may all find themselves without a job. The labour costs are unsustainable Even employees on contract terms gets an increment hence an impact on the gratuity and other related payments made to the brief case outsourcing company. Is salary increase a must nowadays? Does it not depend on either revenue growth and individual performance? Permanent employees on a higher grades/ scales such as managers and directors increment is the only major expense that affects the bottom line of the Company. The impact from the lower cadre employees is not material at all. Lower cadre employees percentage of the total remuneration bill is peanuts. Talent management in aviation is very critical and if not managed well will lead to the demise of an airline. Copying and pasting what is done elsewhere without taking into consideration the local factors is a recipe for disaster. Let executives in KQ to think out of the box and look at other ways of cost cutting rather than lower cadre staff remuneration. Massive losses to the Company will be incurred through such negligible issues. I insist that the problems facing KQ does not emanate from lower cadre employee remuneration.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/22/2010 Posts: 11,522 Location: Nairobi
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maka wrote:Bree wrote:maka wrote:HOTAC...this are the things the hotel guys pray for... Where some leaders are also part of the 'hotel guys'. A while back, all pax for a flight to Mombasa were checked in Panari at 2am, picked up same day at 4am because their flight was ready, hadn't even settled in the room when boarding call was made.  Its a tough life...  possunt quia posse videntur
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 13,708 Location: nairobi
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Turbulence ahead
COOP 255,000 ABP 15.85; KQ 544,100 ABP 7.15; MTN 23,800 ABP 5.20
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/29/2016 Posts: 898 Location: Nairobi
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maka wrote:maka wrote:Bree wrote:maka wrote:HOTAC...this are the things the hotel guys pray for... Where some leaders are also part of the 'hotel guys'. A while back, all pax for a flight to Mombasa were checked in Panari at 2am, picked up same day at 4am because their flight was ready, hadn't even settled in the room when boarding call was made. Its a tough life... No retreat, no surrender. Peoples' revolution. They reduced the fleet and sacked employees for no apparent reason while demand is very high and oil prices are incredibly VERY LOW instead of addressing the real issues affecting the Company. No more shortcuts to be taken, enough is enough.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/28/2015 Posts: 1,247
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ArrestedDev wrote:maka wrote:maka wrote:Bree wrote:maka wrote:HOTAC...this are the things the hotel guys pray for... Where some leaders are also part of the 'hotel guys'. A while back, all pax for a flight to Mombasa were checked in Panari at 2am, picked up same day at 4am because their flight was ready, hadn't even settled in the room when boarding call was made. Its a tough life... No retreat, no surrender. Peoples' revolution. They reduced the fleet and sacked employees for no apparent reason while demand is very high and oil prices are incredibly VERY LOW instead of addressing the real issues affecting the Company. No more shortcuts to be taken, enough is enough. every successful manager knows the success of management lies on evolving an efficient system to manage routines so as management energy and resources are directed to none routine one off events that creates long term viability of the routines. at kq, routines become the management's mainstay when they got their hands into the honey jar. they had to forego critical decision making functions or handled them haphazardly and now they have been caught pants down. wacha kaumane. wacha waende wa kikauka/ kiumaga this tym round. enough said. ,Behold, a sower went forth to sow;....
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/29/2016 Posts: 898 Location: Nairobi
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muandiwambeu wrote:ArrestedDev wrote:maka wrote:maka wrote:Bree wrote:maka wrote:HOTAC...this are the things the hotel guys pray for... Where some leaders are also part of the 'hotel guys'. A while back, all pax for a flight to Mombasa were checked in Panari at 2am, picked up same day at 4am because their flight was ready, hadn't even settled in the room when boarding call was made. Its a tough life... No retreat, no surrender. Peoples' revolution. They reduced the fleet and sacked employees for no apparent reason while demand is very high and oil prices are incredibly VERY LOW instead of addressing the real issues affecting the Company. No more shortcuts to be taken, enough is enough. every successful manager knows the success of management lies on evolving an efficient system to manage routines so as management energy and resources are directed to none routine one off events that creates long term viability of the routines. at kq, routines become the management's mainstay when they got their hands into the honey jar. they had to forego critical decision making functions or handled them haphazardly and now they have been caught pants down. wacha kaumane. wacha waende wa kikauka/ kiumaga this tym round. enough said. Usipo ziba ufa utajenga ukuta.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,330 Location: Masada
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maka wrote:My very good friend has been given an awesome offer by Qatar...interesting thing is he turned it down till manenos stabilise at KQ Engineer or Pilot or Ground staff? So he/she will wait until when? Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,330 Location: Masada
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ArrestedDev wrote:maka wrote:My very good friend has been given an awesome offer by Qatar...interesting thing is he turned it down till manenos stabilise at KQ The offer is good on paper. Your friend took the best decision. Cost of living is very high, very hot, shifts at crazy hours, visa and so many other restrictions,etc. Substandtiate the above with real life figures. Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,330 Location: Masada
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obiero wrote:Turbulence ahead You've finally seen the light albeit VERY late.  Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/22/2010 Posts: 11,522 Location: Nairobi
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Impunity wrote:maka wrote:My very good friend has been given an awesome offer by Qatar...interesting thing is he turned it down till manenos stabilise at KQ Engineer or Pilot or Ground staff? So he/she will wait until when? Engineer...hadi Ngunze leaves things will be ok  Kwanza wewe kumbuka deadline ni kesho 2pm possunt quia posse videntur
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,330 Location: Masada
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maka wrote:Impunity wrote:maka wrote:My very good friend has been given an awesome offer by Qatar...interesting thing is he turned it down till manenos stabilise at KQ Engineer or Pilot or Ground staff? So he/she will wait until when? Engineer...hadi Ngunze leaves things will be ok Kwanza wewe kumbuka deadline ni kesho 2pm Sasa CBK wamekataa ku-credit my commercial bank. I have called and being told the wiring is in the queue! I am so sad. Went to #Member to get a 14 day loan and they say the amount is so huge I will need sijui kukula oath with some laywer...the process will take me at leat 3 days...working days!  Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,330 Location: Masada
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@maka, seen the calculator and I am lost even more. Several entries, I cant even know whats happening. Please send a simple excel sheet/formula/calculator, something similar to that calculator found at CBK site. I am @wanjiku on this IFB matters. Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/22/2010 Posts: 11,522 Location: Nairobi
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Impunity wrote:@maka, seen the calculator and I am lost even more. Several entries, I cant even know whats happening. Please send a simple excel sheet/formula/calculator, something similar to that calculator found at CBK site. I am @wanjiku on this IFB matters. Ebu we chat in a few...it's a simple calc bana... possunt quia posse videntur
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/20/2011 Posts: 1,820 Location: Nakuru
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Sasa hawa ma stranger wamezidi....a net salary of 100k plus 50k sijui what allowance and other perks including 4 air tickets? In the meantime there are plenty of socialites looking for jobs paying half as much.Aii yawa! Kwani what are the salary scales in Kenya?? LINKDumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
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Rank: Chief Joined: 1/3/2007 Posts: 18,188 Location: Nairobi
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Kenyan firms need to automate whatever services they can to reduce labor costs. That's the reality. I watched a documentary of a US car manufacturing plant, in the US, where they hire "cheaper" labor (vs the old union pay scales) and the plant is highly automated. Some sections are fully automated i.e. robots do all the functions. The "humans" are involved in monitoring what the robots are doing. One scene was really neat. The entire shell/body of the car is dipped in an anti-corrosive bath, to evenly coat the car's body, by a mechanical arm. The whole process didn't even take 30 secs! As @murchr said, it will not be long until the need for "flight attendants" is reduced further. LCCs are increasing the use of "ordering" screens for food/drinks so no-one comes by to ask if you want to buy a soda or sandwich. Frankly, do you need a flight attendant to show you how to put on your seatbelt? The 787s need only 2 pilots vs the 3 (pilots/engineers) that were present in older planes. Apparently, the plane can take off, fly and land using the on-board computer. Disruption is real. Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/22/2010 Posts: 11,522 Location: Nairobi
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Fyatu wrote:Sasa hawa ma stranger wamezidi....a net salary of 100k plus 50k sijui what allowance and other perks including 4 air tickets? In the meantime there are plenty of socialites looking for jobs paying half as much.Aii yawa! Kwani what are the salary scales in Kenya?? LINK KALPA waliwacon.... possunt quia posse videntur
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