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Shocking Jubilee secret MEGA projects!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/20/2011 Posts: 1,820 Location: Nakuru
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Kaigangio wrote:I am really amazed at the level of ignorance and individualistic leanings from the politicians. All the hullabaloos surrounding the North Collector Tunnel project has got nothing to do with decimation of some species or desertification in downstream of the rivers where water is to be tapped from and such other kind of nonsense. It is all about Murang'a politics.
To start with the feasibility studies for Ndakaini Dam was done in 1982/1983 during the same period the one for construction of Multipuporse dam at the confluence of Ndarugu and Nairobi river near Munyu in Thika and Greater Kibwezi Irrigation Project. The latter still remains on paper, but as late as last year there was some serious activity on going to the next step.
The findings were that the Ndakaini dam was going to hold 70 Billion litres and a consistent extraction of 430 Million litres per day for the first 10 years after which this would start to decrease due to silting of the dam and significant shrinkage of catchment. The report further gave a compesation solution for this decreased productivity of the dam, the Northern Tunnel Collectors whose detailed technical evaluations and the Social and Environmental Impact Assesment (SEIA) showed that there were no going to be any adverse effects on ecosystem and communities living within the project area and downstream all the way to Tana delta as the extra water to be extracted from the affected rivers was the flood water and not the normal flow water as recorded by the flow stations. Besides other negative impacts as envisaged in the report were going to be addressed accordingly and satisfactorily during the implementation stage.
Upon the completion of the study, Nairobi City Council did not have the Ksh. 1.5 Billion required then to construct the dam and so it had to shelf it. It was not until the year 1988 when the construction started through funding from World Bank, ADB, European Investment Bank and the Kenya Government.
Just before the construction started some 450 ha of land was acquired at a total cost of kshs 127 million being compensation for the 300 households (small scale farmers) who were to be involved in the displacement and relocation.
Whatever else that is being peddled by the politicians is pure chicken shit with no technical facts to support their arguments. This is simply a fight against Wa Iria being perpetrated by Gitura and his Kigumo counterpart. The problem is they used the wrong avenue by hiring a mouth piece who has extrapolated the issue all the way to indian ocean for his own selfish gain. Probably they did or did not see that coming.
Hii nayo ni mtaro ya sewage ama ni mto? Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/17/2009 Posts: 1,049
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hardwood wrote:keraka wrote:Wamunyota wrote:Now that the information came from Kimundu,any reasonable discussion is out. In Africa the Oppressed will always side with the oppressors regardless of what..... In Kenya the well educated peasant in Wazua will always stand with Uthamaki regardless of whatever issues raised by that bogeyman Babu whom we have been programmed to believe is our worst enemy. The bogeyman once talked about NYS and we were told he is fighting a superperforming minister just coz she is from the mountain and is changing the face of the country including kibera.Need i say more. Africans???? NB whether Baba/Babu is right or wrong i dont know,and whether he was involved or not in the initiation of the project is neither here nor there. Issue is," has he raised factual issues in the past and vindicated later on" ?Yes! Then why cant we interrogate this issue further rather than making stupid analysis and justifications on an allegedly elite forum. Could the World Bank have funded such a giant project without an environmental impact assessment being carried out? I doubt. That said, muranga people should also benefit from their water before it is piped to nairobi. Raila demagoguery shouldnt distract those who want to solve Nairobi water problems from doing the job! What solutions is he offering! What explanation is he giving for first endorsing the project and now playing obstructionist! At what point did he get a change his mind and why - what new info did he get that he didnt have initially! Just as absolute power corrupts leaders, so does absolute fanaticism blind the people from logic
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/27/2007 Posts: 2,768
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Museveni wrote:Njung'e wrote:Kaigangio wrote:I am really amazed at the level of ignorance and individualistic leanings from the politicians. All the hullabaloos surrounding the North Collector Tunnel project has got nothing to do with decimation of some species or desertification in downstream of the rivers where water is to be tapped from and such other kind of nonsense. It is all about Murang'a politics.
To start with the feasibility studies for Ndakaini Dam was done in 1982/1983 during the same period the one for construction of Multipuporse dam at the confluence of Ndarugu and Nairobi river near Munyu in Thika and Greater Kibwezi Irrigation Project. The latter still remains on paper, but as late as last year there was some serious activity on going to the next step.
The findings were that the Ndakaini dam was going to hold 70 Billion litres and a consistent extraction of 430 Million litres per day for the first 10 years after which this would start to decrease due to silting of the dam and significant shrinkage of catchment. The report further gave a compesation solution for this decreased productivity of the dam, the Northern Tunnel Collectors whose detailed technical evaluations and the Social and Environmental Impact Assesment (SEIA) showed that there were no going to be any adverse effects on ecosystem and communities living within the project area and downstream all the way to Tana delta as the extra water to be extracted from the affected rivers was the flood water and not the normal flow water as recorded by the flow stations. Besides other negative impacts as envisaged in the report were going to be addressed accordingly and satisfactorily during the implementation stage.
Upon the completion of the study, Nairobi City Council did not have the Ksh. 1.5 Billion required then to construct the dam and so it had to shelf it. It was not until the year 1988 when the construction started through funding from World Bank, ADB, European Investment Bank and the Kenya Government.
Just before the construction started some 450 ha of land was acquired at a total cost of kshs 127 million being compensation for the 300 households (small scale farmers) who were to be involved in the displacement and relocation.
Whatever else that is being peddled by the politicians is pure chicken shit with no technical facts to support their arguments. This is simply a fight against Wa Iria being perpetrated by Gitura and his Kigumo counterpart. The problem is they used the wrong avenue by hiring a mouth piece who has extrapolated the issue all the way to indian ocean for his own selfish gain. Probably they did or did not see that coming.
That part is what the politician does not seem to get!. I am not surprised though when those weighing in are the likes of Joho. What does he know? He is an expert in what?. As i put it earlier, the scheme is bigger. That is why , we are hearing of Tana river Delta and it's population from Joho (and the dreaming team) Talking about flooding in Muranga  Most news from Muranga county during the rain season is all about LANDSLIDES. Are these tunnels going to tackle the landslides problem ? And where are the Nairobi leaders to give weight to the importance of project ? On this baba is spot on. Too many shortcuts and dismissing informed views under the veil of "no adverse effects". @museveni It is a pity for you that flooding to you means local rivers holding too much water than they can possibly drain after a heavy down pour and the excess bursts the banks and flow directly to settled areas. That is a fallacy. Let me put it to you that sometimes it rains heavily in the Aberdares and the local rivers get their average level raised, but the rivers do not burst the banks yet. However a couple of minutes later all that region from Garissa all the way to Tana Delta which is a stretch of about 300km is flooded. You see each and every major river had been fitted with a flow station or stream gauge to record the daily water flow at the point of interest (most of these gauges are still operational). The recording of the results is done for many years and average annual, monthly, daily and hourly flows is determined. Therefore at one given time, if it rains and the river records a higher flow, the difference between the high flow rate and the average rate is the one refered to as the flood (excess) water in hydrology terms. For your information, the tunnels were not going to be constructed throughout Murang'a county, but through a small stretch of about 30km. Like I said, the feasibility study report gave a detailed mitigation procedures and remedial actions which were expected and how they were going to be tackled during the construction. the tunnels were never meant to tackle the landslide issues throughout Murang'a as politicians have made you to believe. ...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/27/2007 Posts: 2,768
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Fyatu wrote:Kaigangio wrote:I am really amazed at the level of ignorance and individualistic leanings from the politicians. All the hullabaloos surrounding the North Collector Tunnel project has got nothing to do with decimation of some species or desertification in downstream of the rivers where water is to be tapped from and such other kind of nonsense. It is all about Murang'a politics.
To start with the feasibility studies for Ndakaini Dam was done in 1982/1983 during the same period the one for construction of Multipuporse dam at the confluence of Ndarugu and Nairobi river near Munyu in Thika and Greater Kibwezi Irrigation Project. The latter still remains on paper, but as late as last year there was some serious activity on going to the next step.
The findings were that the Ndakaini dam was going to hold 70 Billion litres and a consistent extraction of 430 Million litres per day for the first 10 years after which this would start to decrease due to silting of the dam and significant shrinkage of catchment. The report further gave a compesation solution for this decreased productivity of the dam, the Northern Tunnel Collectors whose detailed technical evaluations and the Social and Environmental Impact Assesment (SEIA) showed that there were no going to be any adverse effects on ecosystem and communities living within the project area and downstream all the way to Tana delta as the extra water to be extracted from the affected rivers was the flood water and not the normal flow water as recorded by the flow stations. Besides other negative impacts as envisaged in the report were going to be addressed accordingly and satisfactorily during the implementation stage.
Upon the completion of the study, Nairobi City Council did not have the Ksh. 1.5 Billion required then to construct the dam and so it had to shelf it. It was not until the year 1988 when the construction started through funding from World Bank, ADB, European Investment Bank and the Kenya Government.
Just before the construction started some 450 ha of land was acquired at a total cost of kshs 127 million being compensation for the 300 households (small scale farmers) who were to be involved in the displacement and relocation.
Whatever else that is being peddled by the politicians is pure chicken shit with no technical facts to support their arguments. This is simply a fight against Wa Iria being perpetrated by Gitura and his Kigumo counterpart. The problem is they used the wrong avenue by hiring a mouth piece who has extrapolated the issue all the way to indian ocean for his own selfish gain. Probably they did or did not see that coming.
Hii nayo ni mtaro ya sewage ama ni mto? @fyatu, Chief just after Tsavo the Athi river which is actually nairobi river is joined by a small Tsavo river and Becomes river Galana. Just before it enters the Baricho water treatment works near Malindi town it is known as Sabaki River, Interestingly this apparently very dirty water is treated and is consumed in Malindi, Kilifi, Mombasa, Mtwapa and other surrounding areas. In other words Sabaki river provides for about 60% of coast water requirements. If we peddled the same argument that Murang'a saga is generating, then perhaps the coast region should be paying Kiaqmbu county for all the 60% of the portable water consumed there...why? because the major rivers Nairobi, Ndarugu, Ruiru, Riara, Kiu and others that form Athi river in the sub-lower regions are all from kiambu county. ...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/16/2012 Posts: 660
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Kaigangio wrote:Museveni wrote:Njung'e wrote:Kaigangio wrote:I am really amazed at the level of ignorance and individualistic leanings from the politicians. All the hullabaloos surrounding the North Collector Tunnel project has got nothing to do with decimation of some species or desertification in downstream of the rivers where water is to be tapped from and such other kind of nonsense. It is all about Murang'a politics.
To start with the feasibility studies for Ndakaini Dam was done in 1982/1983 during the same period the one for construction of Multipuporse dam at the confluence of Ndarugu and Nairobi river near Munyu in Thika and Greater Kibwezi Irrigation Project. The latter still remains on paper, but as late as last year there was some serious activity on going to the next step.
The findings were that the Ndakaini dam was going to hold 70 Billion litres and a consistent extraction of 430 Million litres per day for the first 10 years after which this would start to decrease due to silting of the dam and significant shrinkage of catchment. The report further gave a compesation solution for this decreased productivity of the dam, the Northern Tunnel Collectors whose detailed technical evaluations and the Social and Environmental Impact Assesment (SEIA) showed that there were no going to be any adverse effects on ecosystem and communities living within the project area and downstream all the way to Tana delta as the extra water to be extracted from the affected rivers was the flood water and not the normal flow water as recorded by the flow stations. Besides other negative impacts as envisaged in the report were going to be addressed accordingly and satisfactorily during the implementation stage.
Upon the completion of the study, Nairobi City Council did not have the Ksh. 1.5 Billion required then to construct the dam and so it had to shelf it. It was not until the year 1988 when the construction started through funding from World Bank, ADB, European Investment Bank and the Kenya Government.
Just before the construction started some 450 ha of land was acquired at a total cost of kshs 127 million being compensation for the 300 households (small scale farmers) who were to be involved in the displacement and relocation.
Whatever else that is being peddled by the politicians is pure chicken shit with no technical facts to support their arguments. This is simply a fight against Wa Iria being perpetrated by Gitura and his Kigumo counterpart. The problem is they used the wrong avenue by hiring a mouth piece who has extrapolated the issue all the way to indian ocean for his own selfish gain. Probably they did or did not see that coming.
That part is what the politician does not seem to get!. I am not surprised though when those weighing in are the likes of Joho. What does he know? He is an expert in what?. As i put it earlier, the scheme is bigger. That is why , we are hearing of Tana river Delta and it's population from Joho (and the dreaming team) Talking about flooding in Muranga Most news from Muranga county during the rain season is all about LANDSLIDES. Are these tunnels going to tackle the landslides problem ? And where are the Nairobi leaders to give weight to the importance of project ? On this baba is spot on. Too many shortcuts and dismissing informed views under the veil of "no adverse effects". @museveni It is a pity for you that flooding to you means local rivers holding too much water than they can possibly drain after a heavy down pour and the excess bursts the banks and flow directly to settled areas. That is a fallacy. Let me put it to you that sometimes it rains heavily in the Aberdares and the local rivers get their average level raised, but the rivers do not burst the banks yet. However a couple of minutes later all that region from Garissa all the way to Tana Delta which is a stretch of about 300km is flooded. You see each and every major river had been fitted with a flow station or stream gauge to record the daily water flow at the point of interest (most of these gauges are still operational). The recording of the results is done for many years and average annual, monthly, daily and hourly flows is determined. Therefore at one given time, if it rains and the river records a higher flow, the difference between the high flow rate and the average rate is the one refered to as the flood (excess) water in hydrology terms. For your information, the tunnels were not going to be constructed throughout Murang'a county, but through a small stretch of about 30km. Like I said, the feasibility study report gave a detailed mitigation procedures and remedial actions which were expected and how they were going to be tackled during the construction. the tunnels were never meant to tackle the landslide issues throughout Murang'a as politicians have made you to believe. BTW @Kaigangio your opinion is of great insight moreso here. I have definately watched the video reconstruction explaining the project over and over again. The reference I made to landslides was not as a view imposed by politicians but pointed out as the major issue in Muranga during the rain season. Isn't it of greater importance for the leaders (note:avoiding reference to politicians as they are not the only ones leading the people) to try and mitigate the landslide problems even before embarking on a project that even on the face of it does not help the situation? From the infomation publicly available, just a few questions still keep lingering; 1. Is flooding a major issue in Murang'a ? Obviously not. Flooding in the lower parts of Tana is majorly contributed by other factors that will still be in play every rain season. e.g there being no consistent feeder rivers to R. Tana, esp in the garissa region flush floods will always happen and NOT due to 'EXCESS' water from the Aberdares catchment area. 2. It would have been made more sense to focus on alternative sources of water for Nairobi residents, with great input from Nairobi county leadership as well. As of now it has been structired as Muranga county project with leaders (Wa Iria) ONLY from that region being most vocal for the project (what gives? - one ambulance and some houses benefit Muranga residents) while the silence from Nairobi county leadership is deafening. Politicians being involved only muddles (with or without 'flood' waters) the situation further as some will take the opportunity to upsatege others or stayb relevant. 3. Effects of tapping the water at the Source are quite huge and have been so grossly understated. Take an example of the Colorado river - just to steer clear of the local politics. Tapping of the river waters now leads to devastated farmers across the border in Mexico where a pitiful fraction of the water flowing ends up. The impact to those relying on these waters and the environs downstream has been downplayed in the discussions to the point where it looks intentional or as one of the targets. Unfortunately with human behaviour, once an easy solution is stumbled upon, more and more of such actions will be encouraged. So even if a fraction of the waters end up in Ndakaini, more and more water will diverted to fill the presumed shortfalls with little regard to the effects later on. 4. The hush-hush nature of implementing the project raises more eyebrows and suspicions. Corruption thrives in such hideous projects where there is little public participation and transparency. Why the sudden knee-jerk reactions when questions raised? Also, why the rush to start the project even before proper impact reports and licences were granted ? Indulge us mighty @Kaigangio Live and learn; and don’t forget, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/27/2007 Posts: 2,768
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@ Museveni, Iwill try to answer your questions from what I know and as best as I possibly could.... Quote:1. Is flooding a major issue in Murang'a ? Obviously not. Flooding in the lower parts of Tana is majorly contributed by other factors that will still be in play every rain season. e.g there being no consistent feeder rivers to R. Tana, esp in the garissa region flush floods will always happen and NOT due to 'EXCESS' water from the Aberdares catchment area. I agree there is no such a thing as flooding in Murang'a because the valleys through which the rivers flow are deep enouph to accommodate all the flood water. This flood water at the upper regions is the one that causes the flooding in the lower region. I will tell you something, that in as far as river Tana is concerned once it leaves Mwingi, it enters a region with a consistently flat topography all the way to Tana delta. Due to the slow speed of water in this region, the river is very shallow. I did some reconnaissance sometime back along Garissa to nannighi (Bura), Hola, Garsen and Ngao and you know what, some areas are just about 1 metre deep. Along river Tana there is no other factor that causes flooding except heavy rainfall at the catchment and thus excess water (way above the daily recorded average flow rate). Quote:2. It would have been made more sense to focus on alternative sources of water for Nairobi residents, with great input from Nairobi county leadership as well. As of now it has been structired as Muranga county project with leaders (Wa Iria) ONLY from that region being most vocal for the project (what gives? - one ambulance and some houses benefit Muranga residents) while the silence from Nairobi county leadership is deafening. Politicians being involved only muddles (with or without 'flood' waters) the situation further as some will take the opportunity to upsatege others or stayb relevant. At the time (30 years ago) when the feasibility study was done for this project and even Now Nairobi has no other viable alternative of water source. Not boreholes, no place to construct a dam (While in upper Kiambu and Murang'a there is plenty of space). If Nairobi County were to look for a place to construct a dam, may be Spring Valley and some parts of lower Kabete. If the dam was to plug in the water supply deficit which now stands at 300 million litres per day, then for an average of 50m deep dam with a half an year unreplenished capacity, it would have to hold 50 billion litres covering an area of about 1000acres!! The issue of county resource ownership is what is complicating the water and energy issues and not just in Nairobi. This is an issue that cropped up after inaugulation of the the bloody new constitution. So my take is that the project is viable. The only issue that needed to be ironed out is how much Nairobi is going to pay Murang'a county for this resource and where the bulk water meter will be installed. The rest about landslides and desertification are lies meant for political expediencies, nothing else. Quote:3. Effects of tapping the water at the Source are quite huge and have been so grossly understated. Take an example of the Colorado river - just to steer clear of the local politics. Tapping of the river waters now leads to devastated farmers across the border in Mexico where a pitiful fraction of the water flowing ends up. The impact to those relying on these waters and the environs downstream has been downplayed in the discussions to the point where it looks intentional or as one of the targets.
Unfortunately with human behaviour, once an easy solution is stumbled upon, more and more of such actions will be encouraged. So even if a fraction of the waters end up in Ndakaini, more and more water will diverted to fill the presumed shortfalls with little regard to the effects later on. In our case, the water is not being tapped at the source which is the Aberdares. The project here is concerned about tapping of the excess water above the average daily flow. If the water is at or below the average flow rate, the weir gates will remain closed and no water shall enter the turnnels. I like this very automation because it ensures that the same amount of water is still available in the river along its course just as if the project never exixted. As for uncontrolled extraction, this would be upon the national government with the help of the county government and the community to monitor and ensure that there is no unlicensed extractions and diversions. Quote:4. The hush-hush nature of implementing the project raises more eyebrows and suspicions. Corruption thrives in such hideous projects where there is little public participation and transparency. Why the sudden knee-jerk reactions when questions raised? Also, why the rush to start the project even before proper impact reports and licences were granted ? Let me enlighten you yet again... Feasibility study done in 1982/1983 (34 years ago, I am quite sure most of the members in wazua had not been born)...A fact! Construction started in 1988 (28 years ago, how old were you then?). The project composed of 14 components: the main one being of the Ndakaini Dam. This was done and completed in 1996....A fact! the construction of pipelines to Nge'thu water treatment plant and from treatment works to the Gigiri reservoir tank, and other three reservoirs in Kiambu, Kasarani and Wilson Airport which was done and completed...A fact! construction of the water intakes..the main one at ndakaini dam was done and completed....A fact! building of access roads...the ones that were associated with the dam, the rising mains to the treatments works and other pipelines to the storage tanks were done and completed....A fact collector tunnels are the last components that should be marking the completion of the water supply project in totality as conceived and designed 34 years ago....A fact! All in all there is nothing new in this project and all the possible technical and social negativities that were likely to arise had been taken care of. There is nothing wrong with the project. It is the political jostling within and without Murang'a county that is messing everything up. Those are Kenyan politics. If there was anything wrong with the project, it would never have taken off and even the world bank would never have funded it. Upto now about 80% of the project has been completed. Why have we waited until this long (80% completion level) to start punching holes at it? Answer...politicising everything even a cattle deep.  ...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Politics is what holds this country back. Who is wondering why Ethiopia is developing at 12%? Why would one disapprove a 37 year old study for political expediency? "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/7/2012 Posts: 11,908
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The start of the project was after promulgation of the Constitution 2010 so there was need for public participation In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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Some of the nonsense of the activist law
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 4/1/2009 Posts: 1,883
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murchr wrote:Politics is what holds this country back. Who is wondering why Ethiopia is developing at 12%? Why would one disapprove a 37 year old study for political expediency? ironic example. look at where that has led them to so far.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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murchr wrote:Politics is what holds this country back. Who is wondering why Ethiopia is developing at 12%? Why would one disapprove a 37 year old study for political expediency? in a multi ethnic society...Kuwa pole pole pamoja and it sticks. ensure everyone feels the progress is theirs. Wacha tuchape domo na siasa. Once we take a step together its a permanent one. Hii rat race ya kuona who is the tallest dwarf is sprinting into a brick wall. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/27/2007 Posts: 2,768
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 ooohh mama!! It seems you have become a victim of political prejudice on this one. The promulgation of the new constitution did not change the contents of the feasibility study sub item for collector tunnels and neither did it change the structuring and implementation process of the contract. The only thing that changed was the owner of the project. Upto 2010 it belonged to the government through the Nairobi City Council through Nairobi Water and Sewerage Company. Thereafter it changed hands and went to Athi Water Company, but still remained a government project. All these you are calling public participation and awareness had been done along time ago. Only that some of the affected lot through political fanning now want to change the goal post through renegotiations on compensation which was done. Why raise it now instead of then? Poor Kenyans! ...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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mkenyan wrote:murchr wrote:Politics is what holds this country back. Who is wondering why Ethiopia is developing at 12%? Why would one disapprove a 37 year old study for political expediency? ironic example. look at where that has led them to so far. Are you referring to the Oromo riots? Those happen here every 5 years, are you ready for the next round? @mavegges, 37 years ni rat race kweli ama snail race. We are chasing our tails "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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@mchrchr, but our progressive constitution sought to politicise everything. What with hogwash catch phrases like "public participation"?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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Kaigangio wrote:@ Museveni, Iwill try to answer your questions from what I know and as best as I possibly could.... Quote:1. Is flooding a major issue in Murang'a ? Obviously not. Flooding in the lower parts of Tana is majorly contributed by other factors that will still be in play every rain season. e.g there being no consistent feeder rivers to R. Tana, esp in the garissa region flush floods will always happen and NOT due to 'EXCESS' water from the Aberdares catchment area. I agree there is no such a thing as flooding in Murang'a because the valleys through which the rivers flow are deep enouph to accommodate all the flood water. This flood water at the upper regions is the one that causes the flooding in the lower region. I will tell you something, that in as far as river Tana is concerned once it leaves Mwingi, it enters a region with a consistently flat topography all the way to Tana delta. Due to the slow speed of water in this region, the river is very shallow. I did some reconnaissance sometime back along Garissa to nannighi (Bura), Hola, Garsen and Ngao and you know what, some areas are just about 1 metre deep. Along river Tana there is no other factor that causes flooding except heavy rainfall at the catchment and thus excess water (way above the daily recorded average flow rate). Quote:2. It would have been made more sense to focus on alternative sources of water for Nairobi residents, with great input from Nairobi county leadership as well. As of now it has been structired as Muranga county project with leaders (Wa Iria) ONLY from that region being most vocal for the project (what gives? - one ambulance and some houses benefit Muranga residents) while the silence from Nairobi county leadership is deafening. Politicians being involved only muddles (with or without 'flood' waters) the situation further as some will take the opportunity to upsatege others or stayb relevant. At the time (30 years ago) when the feasibility study was done for this project and even Now Nairobi has no other viable alternative of water source. Not boreholes, no place to construct a dam (While in upper Kiambu and Murang'a there is plenty of space). If Nairobi County were to look for a place to construct a dam, may be Spring Valley and some parts of lower Kabete. If the dam was to plug in the water supply deficit which now stands at 300 million litres per day, then for an average of 50m deep dam with a half an year unreplenished capacity, it would have to hold 50 billion litres covering an area of about 1000acres!! The issue of county resource ownership is what is complicating the water and energy issues and not just in Nairobi. This is an issue that cropped up after inaugulation of the the bloody new constitution. So my take is that the project is viable. The only issue that needed to be ironed out is how much Nairobi is going to pay Murang'a county for this resource and where the bulk water meter will be installed. The rest about landslides and desertification are lies meant for political expediencies, nothing else. Quote:3. Effects of tapping the water at the Source are quite huge and have been so grossly understated. Take an example of the Colorado river - just to steer clear of the local politics. Tapping of the river waters now leads to devastated farmers across the border in Mexico where a pitiful fraction of the water flowing ends up. The impact to those relying on these waters and the environs downstream has been downplayed in the discussions to the point where it looks intentional or as one of the targets.
Unfortunately with human behaviour, once an easy solution is stumbled upon, more and more of such actions will be encouraged. So even if a fraction of the waters end up in Ndakaini, more and more water will diverted to fill the presumed shortfalls with little regard to the effects later on. In our case, the water is not being tapped at the source which is the Aberdares. The project here is concerned about tapping of the excess water above the average daily flow. If the water is at or below the average flow rate, the weir gates will remain closed and no water shall enter the turnnels. I like this very automation because it ensures that the same amount of water is still available in the river along its course just as if the project never exixted. As for uncontrolled extraction, this would be upon the national government with the help of the county government and the community to monitor and ensure that there is no unlicensed extractions and diversions. Quote:4. The hush-hush nature of implementing the project raises more eyebrows and suspicions. Corruption thrives in such hideous projects where there is little public participation and transparency. Why the sudden knee-jerk reactions when questions raised? Also, why the rush to start the project even before proper impact reports and licences were granted ? Let me enlighten you yet again... Feasibility study done in 1982/1983 (34 years ago, I am quite sure most of the members in wazua had not been born)...A fact! Construction started in 1988 (28 years ago, how old were you then?). The project composed of 14 components: the main one being of the Ndakaini Dam. This was done and completed in 1996....A fact! the construction of pipelines to Nge'thu water treatment plant and from treatment works to the Gigiri reservoir tank, and other three reservoirs in Kiambu, Kasarani and Wilson Airport which was done and completed...A fact! construction of the water intakes..the main one at ndakaini dam was done and completed....A fact! building of access roads...the ones that were associated with the dam, the rising mains to the treatments works and other pipelines to the storage tanks were done and completed....A fact collector tunnels are the last components that should be marking the completion of the water supply project in totality as conceived and designed 34 years ago....A fact! All in all there is nothing new in this project and all the possible technical and social negativities that were likely to arise had been taken care of. There is nothing wrong with the project. It is the political jostling within and without Murang'a county that is messing everything up. Those are Kenyan politics. If there was anything wrong with the project, it would never have taken off and even the world bank would never have funded it. Upto now about 80% of the project has been completed. Why have we waited until this long (80% completion level) to start punching holes at it? Answer...politicising everything even a cattle deep. After this explanation, i support the project 100%. Nairobi is a relatively new city that's only about 100yrs old and this project will take it into the future and next 1,000yrs. FYI cities like London, Rome are several hundreds (thousands?) years old and had to put in place such master plans for them to grow. The only thing i'd suggest is that Murang'a should get some form of compensation for supplying all that water to Nairobi. Maybe 30% of all water revenue.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Rahatupu wrote:@mchrchr, but our progressive constitution sought to politicise everything. What with hogwash catch phrases like "public participation"? A project put on paper in 1982 studied all the years through the public living in the area participated by giving their land, sasa public gani tena? Kisiangani asked a very good question, would we rather have this water flow to the Indian ocean as it is currently? "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/16/2012 Posts: 660
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Kaigangio wrote:@ Museveni, Iwill try to answer your questions from what I know and as best as I possibly could.... Quote:1. Is flooding a major issue in Murang'a ? Obviously not. Flooding in the lower parts of Tana is majorly contributed by other factors that will still be in play every rain season. e.g there being no consistent feeder rivers to R. Tana, esp in the garissa region flush floods will always happen and NOT due to 'EXCESS' water from the Aberdares catchment area. I agree there is no such a thing as flooding in Murang'a because the valleys through which the rivers flow are deep enouph to accommodate all the flood water. This flood water at the upper regions is the one that causes the flooding in the lower region. I will tell you something, that in as far as river Tana is concerned once it leaves Mwingi, it enters a region with a consistently flat topography all the way to Tana delta. Due to the slow speed of water in this region, the river is very shallow. I did some reconnaissance sometime back along Garissa to nannighi (Bura), Hola, Garsen and Ngao and you know what, some areas are just about 1 metre deep. Along river Tana there is no other factor that causes flooding except heavy rainfall at the catchment and thus excess water (way above the daily recorded average flow rate). Quote:2. It would have been made more sense to focus on alternative sources of water for Nairobi residents, with great input from Nairobi county leadership as well. As of now it has been structired as Muranga county project with leaders (Wa Iria) ONLY from that region being most vocal for the project (what gives? - one ambulance and some houses benefit Muranga residents) while the silence from Nairobi county leadership is deafening. Politicians being involved only muddles (with or without 'flood' waters) the situation further as some will take the opportunity to upsatege others or stayb relevant. At the time (30 years ago) when the feasibility study was done for this project and even Now Nairobi has no other viable alternative of water source. Not boreholes, no place to construct a dam (While in upper Kiambu and Murang'a there is plenty of space). If Nairobi County were to look for a place to construct a dam, may be Spring Valley and some parts of lower Kabete. If the dam was to plug in the water supply deficit which now stands at 300 million litres per day, then for an average of 50m deep dam with a half an year unreplenished capacity, it would have to hold 50 billion litres covering an area of about 1000acres!! The issue of county resource ownership is what is complicating the water and energy issues and not just in Nairobi. This is an issue that cropped up after inaugulation of the the bloody new constitution. So my take is that the project is viable. The only issue that needed to be ironed out is how much Nairobi is going to pay Murang'a county for this resource and where the bulk water meter will be installed. The rest about landslides and desertification are lies meant for political expediencies, nothing else. Quote:3. Effects of tapping the water at the Source are quite huge and have been so grossly understated. Take an example of the Colorado river - just to steer clear of the local politics. Tapping of the river waters now leads to devastated farmers across the border in Mexico where a pitiful fraction of the water flowing ends up. The impact to those relying on these waters and the environs downstream has been downplayed in the discussions to the point where it looks intentional or as one of the targets.
Unfortunately with human behaviour, once an easy solution is stumbled upon, more and more of such actions will be encouraged. So even if a fraction of the waters end up in Ndakaini, more and more water will diverted to fill the presumed shortfalls with little regard to the effects later on. In our case, the water is not being tapped at the source which is the Aberdares. The project here is concerned about tapping of the excess water above the average daily flow. If the water is at or below the average flow rate, the weir gates will remain closed and no water shall enter the turnnels. I like this very automation because it ensures that the same amount of water is still available in the river along its course just as if the project never exixted. As for uncontrolled extraction, this would be upon the national government with the help of the county government and the community to monitor and ensure that there is no unlicensed extractions and diversions. Quote:4. The hush-hush nature of implementing the project raises more eyebrows and suspicions. Corruption thrives in such hideous projects where there is little public participation and transparency. Why the sudden knee-jerk reactions when questions raised? Also, why the rush to start the project even before proper impact reports and licences were granted ? Let me enlighten you yet again... Feasibility study done in 1982/1983 (34 years ago, I am quite sure most of the members in wazua had not been born)...A fact! Construction started in 1988 (28 years ago, how old were you then?). The project composed of 14 components: the main one being of the Ndakaini Dam. This was done and completed in 1996....A fact! the construction of pipelines to Nge'thu water treatment plant and from treatment works to the Gigiri reservoir tank, and other three reservoirs in Kiambu, Kasarani and Wilson Airport which was done and completed...A fact! construction of the water intakes..the main one at ndakaini dam was done and completed....A fact! building of access roads...the ones that were associated with the dam, the rising mains to the treatments works and other pipelines to the storage tanks were done and completed....A fact collector tunnels are the last components that should be marking the completion of the water supply project in totality as conceived and designed 34 years ago....A fact! All in all there is nothing new in this project and all the possible technical and social negativities that were likely to arise had been taken care of. There is nothing wrong with the project. It is the political jostling within and without Murang'a county that is messing everything up. Those are Kenyan politics. If there was anything wrong with the project, it would never have taken off and even the world bank would never have funded it. Upto now about 80% of the project has been completed. Why have we waited until this long (80% completion level) to start punching holes at it? Answer...politicising everything even a cattle deep. Good background info @Kaigangio However you realise after 34 years alot has changed. Key being the population in the catchment area and downstream. Thus the effects of implementing the project are much different from when it was conceived. With all this in mind, realistically a new eia report should have been done and published for all. Awareness is important. As correctly pointed out, resource sharing is going to be a pricky issues between the counties as pressure to collect revenue grows. It would have been great to see the leadership of Nairobi and Muranga come together and set a good precedence by addressing all the issues being raised. Is the project a good idea? Absolutely. However the world Bank is not a standard measure of how good a project is. Sometimes it is a matter of showing good faith in a struggling country that is making good progress. Not that the projects they fund are 100% perfect. As for relegating uncontrolled extraction to the govt, we all know how that goes. Currently we (the govt) are fighting corruption aggressively 😀 meanwhile billions are flowing into private 'pockets' and 'handbags' from public funds. When there is perceived shortage of water in say Nrb or Muranga county wants some extra funds all it takes is a corrupt fellow to keep the gates open and let as much water to flow / divert into the tunnels with little regard to the impact. The underlying issues are much bigger than the politicians trying to upstage each other with sideshows. It would have been great to see engineers, lawyers, and other professionals leading the debate. Sadly however the politicians have taken their stands and now it is a show of might. The project is not perfect. Much can be improved and unfortunately this will Never come from politicians. Do you believe the population downstream is as had been expected 34 years ago ? As @masukuma has pointed out, true progress can only be achieved when the people Kenyans not Muranga residents only or Nairobi residents 'own' and embrace the project and idea. Trying to bully everyone into submission or acceptance is never a good idea. Look at Ethiopia now. The Kibaki administration was way much better in starting to move the wheels towards a vibrant economy. With good checks on public expenditure as well as welcoming different points of view. The current administration seems to have found the blueprints dusted by the previous administration and decided to kick everything into motion with little consideration to economic social and environmental implications. There is the little matter of the sovereign debt. The Chinese seem to be so generous lately? Doing all the works from simple drainages, roads, railways, soon airports and even funding political parties? What gives ? It will be interesting 10 - 20 years from now when the population in the country has ballooned and all the different regions are stretched in terms of resources. This discussion maybe will serve as a good reference on fair resource sharing. Just maybe and hopefully. Live and learn; and don’t forget, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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@museveni, your arguments are on point of no information. Watch the clip on post #52 and this one This is the normal flow at river Chania, when the water is at this level, there would be no tunneling.  When the rivers upstream are overflowing, this is river chania  What is the problem of tunneling the excess water upstream at River Kimakia Kiama etc to be stored in reservoirs for consumption instead of it excessively flowing to Chania - Tana - and end to the Indian ocean? When people tried to politicize the Gibe dam in ET, the leadership ignored and went forth with it, now all investors are flocking there because of cheap elec. Ignore the disturbance caused by Somalis. That is just a bump. But ati Nairobi is trying to position its self as the financial capital with no basic amenities haha.. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/27/2007 Posts: 2,768
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Museveni wrote:Kaigangio wrote:@ Museveni, Iwill try to answer your questions from what I know and as best as I possibly could.... Quote:1. Is flooding a major issue in Murang'a ? Obviously not. Flooding in the lower parts of Tana is majorly contributed by other factors that will still be in play every rain season. e.g there being no consistent feeder rivers to R. Tana, esp in the garissa region flush floods will always happen and NOT due to 'EXCESS' water from the Aberdares catchment area. I agree there is no such a thing as flooding in Murang'a because the valleys through which the rivers flow are deep enouph to accommodate all the flood water. This flood water at the upper regions is the one that causes the flooding in the lower region. I will tell you something, that in as far as river Tana is concerned once it leaves Mwingi, it enters a region with a consistently flat topography all the way to Tana delta. Due to the slow speed of water in this region, the river is very shallow. I did some reconnaissance sometime back along Garissa to nannighi (Bura), Hola, Garsen and Ngao and you know what, some areas are just about 1 metre deep. Along river Tana there is no other factor that causes flooding except heavy rainfall at the catchment and thus excess water (way above the daily recorded average flow rate). Quote:2. It would have been made more sense to focus on alternative sources of water for Nairobi residents, with great input from Nairobi county leadership as well. As of now it has been structired as Muranga county project with leaders (Wa Iria) ONLY from that region being most vocal for the project (what gives? - one ambulance and some houses benefit Muranga residents) while the silence from Nairobi county leadership is deafening. Politicians being involved only muddles (with or without 'flood' waters) the situation further as some will take the opportunity to upsatege others or stayb relevant. At the time (30 years ago) when the feasibility study was done for this project and even Now Nairobi has no other viable alternative of water source. Not boreholes, no place to construct a dam (While in upper Kiambu and Murang'a there is plenty of space). If Nairobi County were to look for a place to construct a dam, may be Spring Valley and some parts of lower Kabete. If the dam was to plug in the water supply deficit which now stands at 300 million litres per day, then for an average of 50m deep dam with a half an year unreplenished capacity, it would have to hold 50 billion litres covering an area of about 1000acres!! The issue of county resource ownership is what is complicating the water and energy issues and not just in Nairobi. This is an issue that cropped up after inaugulation of the the bloody new constitution. So my take is that the project is viable. The only issue that needed to be ironed out is how much Nairobi is going to pay Murang'a county for this resource and where the bulk water meter will be installed. The rest about landslides and desertification are lies meant for political expediencies, nothing else. Quote:3. Effects of tapping the water at the Source are quite huge and have been so grossly understated. Take an example of the Colorado river - just to steer clear of the local politics. Tapping of the river waters now leads to devastated farmers across the border in Mexico where a pitiful fraction of the water flowing ends up. The impact to those relying on these waters and the environs downstream has been downplayed in the discussions to the point where it looks intentional or as one of the targets.
Unfortunately with human behaviour, once an easy solution is stumbled upon, more and more of such actions will be encouraged. So even if a fraction of the waters end up in Ndakaini, more and more water will diverted to fill the presumed shortfalls with little regard to the effects later on. In our case, the water is not being tapped at the source which is the Aberdares. The project here is concerned about tapping of the excess water above the average daily flow. If the water is at or below the average flow rate, the weir gates will remain closed and no water shall enter the turnnels. I like this very automation because it ensures that the same amount of water is still available in the river along its course just as if the project never exixted. As for uncontrolled extraction, this would be upon the national government with the help of the county government and the community to monitor and ensure that there is no unlicensed extractions and diversions. Quote:4. The hush-hush nature of implementing the project raises more eyebrows and suspicions. Corruption thrives in such hideous projects where there is little public participation and transparency. Why the sudden knee-jerk reactions when questions raised? Also, why the rush to start the project even before proper impact reports and licences were granted ? Let me enlighten you yet again... Feasibility study done in 1982/1983 (34 years ago, I am quite sure most of the members in wazua had not been born)...A fact! Construction started in 1988 (28 years ago, how old were you then?). The project composed of 14 components: the main one being of the Ndakaini Dam. This was done and completed in 1996....A fact! the construction of pipelines to Nge'thu water treatment plant and from treatment works to the Gigiri reservoir tank, and other three reservoirs in Kiambu, Kasarani and Wilson Airport which was done and completed...A fact! construction of the water intakes..the main one at ndakaini dam was done and completed....A fact! building of access roads...the ones that were associated with the dam, the rising mains to the treatments works and other pipelines to the storage tanks were done and completed....A fact collector tunnels are the last components that should be marking the completion of the water supply project in totality as conceived and designed 34 years ago....A fact! All in all there is nothing new in this project and all the possible technical and social negativities that were likely to arise had been taken care of. There is nothing wrong with the project. It is the political jostling within and without Murang'a county that is messing everything up. Those are Kenyan politics. If there was anything wrong with the project, it would never have taken off and even the world bank would never have funded it. Upto now about 80% of the project has been completed. Why have we waited until this long (80% completion level) to start punching holes at it? Answer...politicising everything even a cattle deep. Good background info @Kaigangio However you realise after 34 years alot has changed. Key being the population in the catchment area and downstream. Thus the effects of implementing the project are much different from when it was conceived. With all this in mind, realistically a new eia report should have been done and published for all. Awareness is important. As correctly pointed out, resource sharing is going to be a pricky issues between the counties as pressure to collect revenue grows. It would have been great to see the leadership of Nairobi and Muranga come together and set a good precedence by addressing all the issues being raised. Is the project a good idea? Absolutely. However the world Bank is not a standard measure of how good a project is. Sometimes it is a matter of showing good faith in a struggling country that is making good progress. Not that the projects they fund are 100% perfect. As for relegating uncontrolled extraction to the govt, we all know how that goes. Currently we (the govt) are fighting corruption aggressively 😀 meanwhile billions are flowing into private 'pockets' and 'handbags' from public funds. When there is perceived shortage of water in say Nrb or Muranga county wants some extra funds all it takes is a corrupt fellow to keep the gates open and let as much water to flow / divert into the tunnels with little regard to the impact. The underlying issues are much bigger than the politicians trying to upstage each other with sideshows. It would have been great to see engineers, lawyers, and other professionals leading the debate. Sadly however the politicians have taken their stands and now it is a show of might. The project is not perfect. Much can be improved and unfortunately this will Never come from politicians. Do you believe the population downstream is as had been expected 34 years ago ? As @masukuma has pointed out, true progress can only be achieved when the people Kenyans not Muranga residents only or Nairobi residents 'own' and embrace the project and idea. Trying to bully everyone into submission or acceptance is never a good idea. Look at Ethiopia now. The Kibaki administration was way much better in starting to move the wheels towards a vibrant economy. With good checks on public expenditure as well as welcoming different points of view. The current administration seems to have found the blueprints dusted by the previous administration and decided to kick everything into motion with little consideration to economic social and environmental implications. There is the little matter of the sovereign debt. The Chinese seem to be so generous lately? Doing all the works from simple drainages, roads, railways, soon airports and even funding political parties? What gives ? It will be interesting 10 - 20 years from now when the population in the country has ballooned and all the different regions are stretched in terms of resources. This discussion maybe will serve as a good reference on fair resource sharing. Just maybe and hopefully. @Museveni, your post tells me that you are arguing from a point ignorance with no technical knowledge related to this project. My advice just visit the Tana and Athi River Development Authority library (not the internet) or Maji House or National Water Pipeline and Conservation Corporation and read about this project right from pre-feasibility study stage right upto the implementation. Once done we could discuss further on the same platform and level. ...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/17/2008 Posts: 488
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Just a query
-Aren't Ewaso Nyiro n Sagana the biggest rivers in Garissa/Tana belt?
-Dont the two rivers originate frm Mt Kenya and not the Aberdares?
-There are many n much bigger rivers in Kangema, Mathioya n Nyeri with origin in the Aberdares that are not part of this project, right?
I just to understand the desertification thing.
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