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why do i vote YES for Kenya proposed constitution
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slammers
#1 Posted : Sunday, May 02, 2010 12:11:52 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 5/1/2009
Posts: 206
am one of those people voting yes bt do nt have a reason 4 voting yes. my predicament is i have reasons 4 voting no. anybody to convience me to vote yes
slammers attached the following image(s):
katiba.jpg (4kb) downloaded 0 time(s).
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  | | Edit by moderator: Saturday, May 15, 2010 9:18 PM | Reason: title clarified
muganda
#2 Posted : Sunday, May 02, 2010 1:34:11 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,907
Eeeh heeee @slammers; there's been too much back and forth about the constitution and everyone throwing stones at us because we've not read it. I've just downloaded the
-current constitution The Constitution of Kenya 2009 (2008) As Amended
-and new constitution The Proposed Constitution by CoE As Approved by National Assembly (1st April 2010)

I'll be posting my opinion as days go by - and yes I'm just a layman. Heck it's just like reading a 200pg novel with wide spacing, but much more impact guys.
You can join the reading club smile



01. On reading the project context and final reports, it has dawned on me that quite some process and consultative approach has brought us to where we are now. From Bomas days over 80% of the draft was not in contention; current efforts have brought us to closer agreement on issues of devolution and executive. No wonder there's concensus in over 90% of the draft.


02. Okay I confess I'm party to poetry and the preamble to the constitution is poooeetiic!
We, the people of Kenya, acknowledging the supremacy of almighty God; honouring those who heroically struggled to bring freedom and justice; proud of our ethnic, cultural and religious diversity; committed to nuturing and protecting well-being of the individual; recognising aspirations for essential values of human rights, equality, freedom, democracy, social justice and rule of law; ...


03. I like Chapter One - Sovereignity of the People and Supremacy of this Constitution. Basically it says I'm the boss and I've sat down with my brothers and sisters and stipulated and committed to defend my key rights. Only after that do I give anyone permission to take up administrative/public office to exercise my rights.


Note so far I did not mention the current consititution; it has none of that! Chapter Two of new constitution is The Republic and the old consitution just starts with the Republic - how drab!
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  | | Edit by user: Sunday, May 02, 2010 1:40 PM | Reason: color
famooz
#3 Posted : Sunday, May 02, 2010 2:59:34 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 2,047
Thanks Muganda.......for posting,i will soma pia.
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slammers
#4 Posted : Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:49:55 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 5/1/2009
Posts: 206
@muganda pliz read chapter 6 -33 -4
The provisions of this chapter ( bill of rights) on equality shall be qualified to the extent strictly necessary for the application of islamic law to person who profess the muslim faith
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masukuma
#5 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 4:47:48 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@muganda,
It so true people have not read the draft and are vehemently fighting for it. i have read Mutahi Ngunyi's opinion and tend to agree with it.
Quote:
The second is a question: If Mr Odinga had said “No”, how many of you would still be in the “Yes” camp? If the president had disagreed with Mr Odinga and chosen the “No” path, would this brigade be intact? Is the “Yes” brigade intact because the two principals are in it or is it because the draft is good?

on the same reading note look at this confusion in the draft
this is from the Bill of Rights
Quote:
32. (1) Every person has the right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief and opinion.
(2) Every person has the right, either individually or in community with others,
in public or in private, to manifest any religion or belief through worship, practice, teaching or observance, including observance of a day of worship.
(3) A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person’s belief or religion.
(4) A person shall not be compelled to act, or engage in any act, that is contrary to the person’s belief or religion.


correlate with this in the same paper

Quote:
170. (1) There shall be a Chief Kadhi and such number, being not fewer than three,
of other Kadhis as may be prescribed under an Act of Parliament.
(2) A person shall not be qualified to be appointed to hold or act in the office of
Kadhi unless the person—
(a) professes the Muslim religion; and
(b) possesses such knowledge of the Muslim law applicable to any sects
of Muslims as qualifies the person, in the opinion of the Judicial
Service Commission, to hold a Kadhi’s court.


so regardless of your testable knowledge of muslim law, an atheist, a Christian a hindu cannot be a Kadhi.
? I think this is an Exception to provisions in the bill of rights
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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  | | Edit by user: Monday, May 03, 2010 5:06 AM | Reason: Not specified
aemathenge
#6 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 6:00:13 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/18/2008
Posts: 3,434
Location: Kerugoya
I rarely agree with you @Masukuma but the above is brilliant. If only this "Katiba" circus was being discussed thus, it would be super.

I sincerely hope that this thread continues in this spirit.

Personally, although I have not registered, I have questions. For example, does 32(2) give Devil Worshipers the right to practice their"Religion"?

There is this Sect that does not believe in seeking medical attention from doctors and health institutions. Would they be protected by 32(4) above if, for example, the sick person died and a Sect member was charged with murder or manslaughter for not taking the sick person to the hospital?
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  | | Edit by user: Monday, May 03, 2010 6:13 AM | Reason: Added text and commas, and changed there to their
masukuma
#7 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 6:13:33 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@aemathenge, thanks. I also think people should be aware that this is a crapy law
Quote:
Supremacy of this Constitution
2. (1) This Constitution is the supreme law of the Republic and binds all persons
and all State organs at both levels of government.
(2) No person may claim or exercise State authority except as authorised under
this Constitution.
(3) The validity or legality of this Constitution is not subject to challenge by or
before any court or other State organ.
(4) Any law, including customary law, that is inconsistent with this
Constitution is void to the extent of the inconsistency, and any act or
omission in contravention of this Constitution is invalid.
(5) The general rules of international law shall form part of the law of Kenya.
(6) Any treaty or convention ratified by Kenya shall form part of the law of Kenya under this Constitution.

Eh...Who is Kenya? The Government? What if the government ratifies a treaty that annexes part of the Kenyan border (for a while - maybe 999 years) to some foreign land. At what point will Kenyans be consulted?
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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  | | Edit by user: Monday, May 03, 2010 6:22 AM | Reason: Not specified
nanfor1
#8 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 6:41:26 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
@Masukuma . At last we can start talking


(3) A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person’s belief or religion.

This section is not absolute. There are always exceptions to the rule.

For example, if we are to follow your argument, then a muslim can become the chairman of the NCCK.

This is an issue that has been bugging Kenya for a long time. People who are qualified to do a job are denied the job only on the basis of the the items in (3)

It is meant to ensure that "qualified" people get the jobs they deserve.

If you masukuma can interpret muslim law, and are a muslim, by all means, apply for the job.

This section does not mean that you have a right to go into a hindu church with shoes in a mini skirt just because you cannot be denied access.

@ aemathenge As for the "devil worship" issue. Devil worshp according to who. Some christians believe islam is devil worship. Some evangelicals believe praying through Mary is devil worship.


"The General rules" does not mean "all" the rules

That is why we have the supreme court to intepret what "international rules" will apply based on the "spirit" of the constitution.

That is the reason why it will be upto the Kenyan masses to elect those that will interpret the rules according to their own views.

For example if you elect bad leaders, then it is your fault, if they allow the annexing part of the country, not the constitutions fault.

It is important to read the whole document and the context of the document. Not take bits and pieces as most evangelicals like taking bits and pieces of the bible to push a certain view.

The context of the document is what @muganda showed at the start
Hata wakizima taa
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Soko tele
#9 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 9:20:57 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 8/19/2008
Posts: 60
@Nanfor1........whenever there is an exception ,it is expressly mention. Also NCCK is not on the constitution and its funded by the church. SInce our taxes will pay the Kadhis then any kenyan should be eligible.

Moving on...........Has anyone come across the cost implication once the draft is implemented?

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Wendz
#10 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 9:58:01 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
masukuma wrote:
@muganda,


(3) A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person’s belief or religion.

What would your wish be? That we are denied access to Pwani University because it is ran by a muslim and majority of the students are muslims and its in the coastal strip on the basis that am a christian?

correlate with this in the same paper

Quote:
170.

(2) A person shall not be qualified to be appointed to hold or act in the office of
Kadhi unless the person—
(a) professes the Muslim religion; assuming you are christian and believe that one should not marry more than one wife and you strongly believe that, how are you supposed to solve a problem presented to you in which case the parties have disputes over polygamy issues? and how about their culture that you can marry a 1st cousin? so how well would one handle that if you do not believe in such? How much would such a person being tried by someone from a different faith feel justice has been done? As Nanfor said, it is ensuring you have competent person for the job.

and
(b) possesses such knowledge of the Muslim law applicable to any sects
of Muslims as qualifies the person, in the opinion of the Judicial
Service Commission, to hold a Kadhi’s court.


so regardless of your testable knowledge of muslim law, an atheist, a Christian a hindu cannot be a Kadhi.
? I think this is an Exception to provisions in the bill of rights
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  | | Edit by user: Monday, May 03, 2010 9:59 AM | Reason: Not specified
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