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Is it true about SUPKEM and DSTV
Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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Masukuma...I think we are just being unrealistic...expecting the MPigs to ammend the draft while we saw what happened in parliament while the Draft was being passed is like saying we are comfortable with the current draft....because the MPs WILL SIMPLY NOT REACH A CONSENSUS TO AMMEND IT......even if we wait for year 3020... We only have two choices . Old constitution .... or Draft constitution as it is.... Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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@Fundaa, don't cut corners for them. they are a bunch of spoiled children. a few street protests and they will know we want it changed. i will not rubber-stamp their irresponsibility. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 9/23/2008 Posts: 94
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Am just worried coz i border this NE area. But am sure something will happen. Again I saw gava taking responsibility which i believe its not true
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Rank: Chief Joined: 3/24/2010 Posts: 6,779 Location: Black Africa
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Wajinga wapige No. What the f*** is wrong with some people? Even if the Kadhi's court is expunged from the constitution, it will not abolish SUPKEM. There is a difference between Supkem and Kadhis courtss. Kadhi's courts deals with marriage and inheritance. What the hell has supkem banning DSTV halls in North Eastern got to do with the Kadhhi's Courts? It has ABSOLUTELY NO CORRELATION. Think before kupayuka and exposing your ignorances. Talk only what you know. Katiiba itapita hata mkilia mavi. GOD BLESS YOUR LIFE
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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@youcantstopusnow, We will not be shut-up by your insults. We don't want Kadhi's courts in our constitution - Muslims can fund them in another way since they are not PUBLIC offices. let them be funded by their beneficiaries. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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masukuma wrote:We will not.... shut-up.
We don't want Kadhi's courts in our constitution . Masukuma here is some voice of reason from very unexpected quarters http://www.nation.co.ke/...24/-/x7t098/-/index.htmlIsaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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Hardhitter wrote:Fundaah wrote:Kenya is over 80% christian...and counting...why are we so worried that we will be ruled by less than 20% Muslims yet we have the numbers .....we pass the constitution as it is ....then if anyone thinks he can bring sharia laws we deal with it using our numbers ....1 million signatures isnt much for a country with over 20million eligible christian voters...is it? tru. @Fundaah and hardhitter I think the worry would be that an average kenyan woman will bear an average of 2 children and for obvious reasons... an average somali woman (kenyan or not - we can clamp the muslim women together for ease of generalisation)will bear 6 children. Infact, a muslim friend of mine has a two brothers. one has 7 kids, the othr has 11 kids... tell me which woman from central, nyanza, western etc will bear this number of children? In the long run, you see where we might be headed.... @Nay sayers That not withstanding, as much as there is a valid reason to separate the state from the religion, it is not an enough reason to vote this constitution NO. Look at it this way. None of the christians really want to khadhi courts in the constitution and but if its going to lead us into voting the whole constitution no, then we are willing to compromise. Raising 1m votes is very easy on khadhi courts and abortion issues and thats where the church is going wrong! just encourage the faithfuls to vote yes, then if all they need is a million signatures, just set aside one sunday for all christians, have books outside the church for all the christians who are opposed to it to endorse their signatures and there we have over 10 million signatures on both issues on one day which will force the government to amend those clauses but still we will have the 90% good of the constititution..... We need to think outside the box! And guess what? they only need one month to announce the set date for all churches to vote and call their faithful to do so and their only cost is purchase of the signature book.... then submit to NCCK which will compile and hand over to the government! and everyone will be happy.... infact, almost all of the Yah sayers will help vote NO to those contentious issues which makes it easier to get the million signatures they need. Ala? what is rocket science in that? There are a million ways of killing a rat.... including biting it severally????????????
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/17/2008 Posts: 1,234
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@Wendz - Amending the Constitution will not be as easy as ABC as you purport. See sections 255 to 257 of the Draft.You will still have to negotiate thro the counties and parliament.
Amendment of this Constitution
255. (1) A proposed amendment to this Constitution shall be enacted in accordance
with Article 256 or 257, and approved in accordance with clause (2) by a referendum, if the amendment relates to any of the following matters––
(a) the supremacy of this Constitution;
(b) the territory of Kenya;
(c) the sovereignty of the people;
(d) the national values and principles of governance mentioned in Article 10 (2) (a) to (d);
(e) the Bill of Rights;
(f) the term of office of the President;
(g) the independence of the Judiciary and the commissions and independent offices to which Chapter Fifteen applies;
(h) the functions of Parliament;
(i) the objects, principles and structure of devolved government; or
(j) the provisions of this Chapter.
(2) A proposed amendment is approved by a referendum under clause (1) if––
(a) at least twenty per cent of the registered voters in each of at least half of the counties vote in the referendum; and
(b) the amendment is supported by a simple majority of the citizens voting in the referendum.
(3) An amendment to this Constitution that does not relate to a matter mentioned in clause (1) shall be enacted either—
(a) by Parliament, in accordance with Article 256; or
(b) by the people and Parliament, in accordance with Article 257.
Amendment by parliamentary initiative
256. (1) A Bill to amend this Constitution—
(a) may be introduced in either House of Parliament;
(b) may not address any other matter apart from consequential amendments to legislation arising from the Bill;
(c) shall not be called for second reading in either House within ninety days after the first reading of the Bill in that House; and
(d) shall have been passed by Parliament when each House of Parliament has passed the Bill, in both its second and third readings, by not less than two-thirds of all the members of that House.
(2) Parliament shall publicise any Bill to amend this Constitution, and facilitate
public discussion about the Bill.
(3) After Parliament enacts a Bill to amend this Constitution, the Speakers of the two Houses of Parliament shall jointly submit to the President—
(a) the Bill, for assent and publication; and
(b) a certificate that the Bill has been enacted by Parliament in accordance with this Article.
(4) Subject to clause (5), the President shall assent to the Bill and cause it to be published within thirty days after the Bill is enacted by Parliament.
(5) If a Bill to amend this Constitution proposes an amendment relating to a
matter mentioned in Article 255 (1)—
(a) before assenting to the Bill, the President shall request the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission to conduct, within ninety days, a national referendum for approval of the Bill; and
(b) within thirty days after the chairperson of the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission has certified to the President that the Bill has been approved in accordance with Article 255 (2), the President
shall assent to the Bill and cause it to be published.
Amendment by popular initiative
257. (1) An amendment to this Constitution may be proposed by a popular initiative
signed by at least one million registered voters.
(2) A popular initiative for an amendment to this Constitution may be in the
form of a general suggestion or a formulated draft Bill.
(3) If a popular initiative is in the form of a general suggestion, the promoters
of that popular initiative shall formulate it into a draft Bill.
(4) The promoters of a popular initiative shall deliver the draft Bill and the supporting signatures to the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission, which shall verify that the initiative is supported by at least
one million registered voters.
(5) If the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission is satisfied that the initiative meets the requirements of this Article, the Commission shall submit the draft Bill to each county assembly for consideration within three
months after the date it was submitted by the Commission.
(6) If a county assembly approves the draft Bill within three months after the date it was submitted by the Commission, the speaker of the county assembly shall deliver a copy of the draft Bill jointly to the Speakers of the
two Houses of Parliament, with a certificate that the county assembly has approved it.
(7) If a draft Bill has been approved by a majority of the county assemblies, it
shall be introduced in Parliament without delay.
(8) A Bill under this Article is enacted by Parliament if supported by a majority
of the members of each House.
(9) If Parliament enacts the Bill, it shall be submitted to the President for assent
in accordance with Articles 256 (4) and (5).
(10) If either House of Parliament fails to pass the Bill, or the Bill relates to a
matter mentioned in 255 (1), the proposed amendment shall be submitted to
the people in a referendum.
(11) Article 255 (2) applies, with any necessary modifications, to a referendum
under clause (9).
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2007 Posts: 2,047
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True amending katiba is not as simple as ABC. i think we are caught between a rock and a hard place...which ever way,we are screwed.
As a Christian,i don like the contempt with which Kibs and RO are treating the clergy
On the other side,i am well aware that the clergy are compromised big time- they have lost credibility.Reminds me of Ayatollah the Iranian leader who tried to stop the people's revolution in Iran. He was shocked. I see a resounding Yes and then the clergy will sink further than they already have...............and then we are a nation of majority Christian but with 'voiceless' leaders. Effects will last way after the hyped referendum.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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Thanks @ mpenzi
though true that its difficult to amend the katiba, if the issue is that thorny, i am sure we can amend it..... in any case, we are going to amend it at some point in the future over something that we are not even aware is contentious right now..... you see... so, it still can be done however hard it is... problem with getting this document back without passing it is that we shall give these politicians another chance to spin our heads round for another looong looong loong time.... lets spin our heads with a few issues, not the whole mountain of issues....
still not convinced why i should vote NO when we can work on this afterwards!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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I liked what the professor said,you are currently living in a grass thatched house with an outside toilet (10 meters from your door post), you pay a contractor to build you a palace in muthaiga or runda, the dude decides to put a pit latrine INSIDE your palace after instructing him not to do so. then he shamelessly says he won't he cannot remove the cess pit now that since you are in too much in a hurry and you have already spent so much money - you should just move into the house (ignore the cess pit right inside there since you had it before in the old thatched house). I mean who paid for the house? Is it akina RAO or KIBs or any MPs? do they contribute taxes? They did not pay for the house ...we the tax payers did!!! So unless they are new tax payers they should stop saying it is too expensive - we pay them we are their employers!! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/24/2008 Posts: 238
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Wendz, besides the fact that it is hard and quite expensive to amend the contentious parts of the draft, it also depends on how serious we take the issue to be. Even that 90% good.. blah blah blah.. depends on importance we attach to the issues.
Imagine if the constitution was all good except for a clause saying the president's term shall not be limited- that one can be President so long as he is elected. I can almost bet this would be very contentious because of the importance we attach to our politics, and we will be out saying it is only 10% good. Rallying people to oppose it will be easy. It would be a matter of life and death!
Many people have decided that the issues of kadhi's courts (state's equal treatment of religions)and abortion are not as serious as would say the issue of unlimited term of the president. They can live with it and change it later. It is within their right. Equally others cannot vote yes without thinking they are entrenching abortion-on-demand and inequality of religion in the most important law of the land.
We have choices, don't we!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/26/2008 Posts: 319
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For me, it remains a NO.
Willy Koech put it very well on last night's Loius show on K24. The good things may be 90%, but the bad things in this constitution are quite glaring and sober thinking Kenyans should not follow politicians blindly (sorry), but should debate the negative articles, not just be boxed into Kadhi's and abortion clauses, there are more issues and they are serious!
Let us all register as voters, vote this draft out and shelf it. Come 2012, the same euphoria of 2002, let us eliminate at least 75% of the current house, and then with a new leadership, do a proper constitution for all Kenyans.
So go out and register as a voter. Knock off the current paper and keep ur kura intact till 2012. That is the more significant change we can make.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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@Sigiriri, I listened to him too - quite revealing. But saying the Kadhi's and Abortion clauses are minor was not proper. i however applaud his question of why are people taking politicians' word for it? when 80% of Kenyans have not read the constitution 64% will vote YES for it. All major Christian leaders (ACK + CATHOLICS + NCCK + Evangelicals e.t.c.) cannot be wrong after going for retreats to ensure that they tackle the issues at hand. It is indeed suspect for a government or the state to push for this document. Thea is no need to get a new constitution if there are glaring errors in it - when you vote YES, you are not saying i wish to support Raila or Kibs on this, you are saying I am binding my children and my lineage to be governed by this document ad infinitum. lets not dwell on the good things (they are ours) lets look at the potential problems we may be subjecting our descendants to. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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Sigiriri wrote:For me, it remains a NO.
Willy Koech put it very well on last night's Loius show on K24. The good things may be 90%, but the bad things in this constitution are quite glaring and sober thinking Kenyans should not follow politicians blindly (sorry), but should debate the negative articles, not just be boxed into Kadhi's and abortion clauses, there are more issues and they are serious!
Let us all register as voters, vote this draft out and shelf it. Come 2012, the same euphoria of 2002, let us eliminate at least 75% of the current house, and then with a new leadership, do a proper constitution for all Kenyans.
So go out and register as a voter. Knock off the current paper and keep ur kura intact till 2012. That is the more significant change we can make. @ Sigiriri, seriously what are you smoking. Please read what you wrote here again. You must be one of those Kenyans benefiting from the tilted playing field that the current constitution has given a few well connected individuals and denied many. 90% good is definitely a good return from anything, how can you say 90% is good then still reject it on the basis of the mythical 10% thats bad. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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@masukuma
Tell me, we took this document to the parliament, when the PSC had generally agreed on most of the items except two or three items. What did we see in parliament? 150 more amendments to suit personal and political interests came up..... giving these politicians a chance to have this document back to mutilate it will be a gross mistake..... and the fact that ODM and PNU or PDM whatever it is still see each other as rivals, then the person to benefit will be the common man and that is what this constitution is doing.... if you think we can amend it now, what makes you think we cant amend it later? its not like its un-amendable?
Guys the issues that are contentious are things we can work on.... we cant throw away a whole 90% good constitution for 10%.
Those saying that we are following the politicians blindly simply because we are voting yes are mistaken. we have read the constitution and it is good... and even the nay sayers know it is good and only two issues are contentious that shouldnt really be holding us back! and the yes sayers acknowledge that there are those two contentious issues but giving the chance to have them rectified will be a nightmare coz these politicians will take advantage and change things to suit their personal interests.... thats the main reason i cant vote NO to this constitution.....
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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has anyone read Brewer's post? Quote:Imagine if the constitution was all good except for a clause saying the president's term shall not be limited- that one can be President so long as he is elected. I can almost bet this would be very contentious because of the importance we attach to our politics, and we will be out saying it is only 10% good. Rallying people to oppose it will be easy. It would be a matter of life and death! this is to say that sometimes 99.9% is not good enough if the 0.1% is a very important to the people. some clafication, the PCS had agreed on some matters but the COE changed some back (substituting ORs with ANDs). The PSC represented parliament but is not parliament. Quote:if you think we can amend it now, what makes you think we cant amend it later? its not like its un-amendable Any amendments to provisions in the bill of rights (article 255 (1,2) article 257) need a referendum to ratify them over and above the 1 million votes to get the process moving via county assemblies to parliament. Quote:
255. (1) A proposed amendment to this Constitution shall be enacted in accordance
with Article 256 or 257, and approved in accordance with clause (2) by a
referendum, if the amendment relates to any of the following matters––
(a) the supremacy of this Constitution;
...
(e) the Bill of Rights;
....
(j) the provisions of this Chapter.
(2) A proposed amendment is approved by a referendum under clause (1) if––
(a) at least twenty per cent of the registered voters in each of at least half
of the counties vote in the referendum; and
(b) the amendment is supported by a simple majority of the citizens voting in the referendum.
For Kadhi's courts we can do that via county assemblies then parliament. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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Any amendments to provisions in the bill of rights (article 255 (1,2) article 257) need a referendum to ratify them over and above the 1 million votes to get the process moving via county assemblies to parliament.
@ masukuma
and you dont think this can be done?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/19/2008 Posts: 1,267
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If we want a new Constitution .... we better pass the one on the table and ammend anything we do not want thereafter.....there are so many goodies in the draft we cannot afford to lose....If we put this draft back to politicians especially Mpigs to agree on ammendment we will be losing track.....Because its very simple ...not rocket science ... THEY WILL NOT .. NEVER AGREE....so why not take the opportunity at hand to accept what they have agreed on and marshall 1 million votes to make the necessary ammendments? Are we ready to wait for another 20 years of being taken in circle? Churches, with all the registers of members should be the last to see an impossibility of gathering 1M voters. Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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Fundaah wrote:If we want a new Constitution .... we better pass the one on the table and ammend anything we do not want thereafter.....there are so many goodies in the draft we cannot afford to lose....If we put this draft back to politicians especially Mpigs to agree on ammendment we will be losing track.....Because its very simple ...not rocket science ... THEY WILL NOT .. NEVER AGREE....so why not take the opportunity at hand to accept what they have agreed on and marshall 1 million votes to make the necessary ammendments?
Are we ready to wait for another 20 years of being taken in circle?
Churches, with all the registers of members should be the last to see an impossibility of gathering 1M voters. It is far easier and cheaper to fix the sticking issues now rather than post referundum. And while at it, who said the only option on the table is getting parliament to amend the contents of the draft. I may also ask what's so difficult in presenting the contentious issues as seperate questions to the people of Kenya to decide? And for heavens sake, the COE, the mother act, and even the amendment to section 47 of the constitution to smooth the process of bringing forth this draft was all done by the current Parliament. I therefore dont get it when we are now adopting an hollier than thou attitude and demonising the MPs who brought us this far. "Msitukane wakunga, na hali uzazi ungaliko". Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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