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Law Capping interest rates
Gatheuzi
#741 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 12:57:57 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/16/2009
Posts: 994
dunkang wrote:
Internet wrote:
If Banks make less profit due to interest rate capping, KRA will collect less taxes.

If banks dont have the money, businesses have the money

Precisely! A business say; ARM can borrow and the excess interest that it used to pay will now be reported as it's profit from which GOK can then collect tax. It is merely a change of who will pay, not what is being paid.

The only variation of course is to the tax evaders who will hide the profits but this is a different discussion all together.
Time is money, so money is time. Money saved is time gained in reverse! Money stores your life’s energy. You expend your energy, get paid money, and store that money for a future purchase made in a currency.
Wakanyugi
#742 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 12:58:07 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
KNM wrote:
This is how I see it playing out, should this law stand.
For one, equilibrium will be reached. So good news for the pro-rate cap crowd. Well sort of...

1. Freeze/slow down in lending: Already began btw. By removing their ability to adequately price the risk into loans(coz thats whats happened!) then better safe than sorry. The leaked memo yesterday was just an example. All will follow suit esp with the unsecured loans.

I don't see banks tightening the nose already around their necks. Banks primary business is to 'buy' and 'sell' money. So they stop doing that and do what? Sell mandazi?


2. Refusal of deposits
Now plenty of people are confused by this. Nobody is saying a bouncer is at the door stopping you from depositing, it means less welcoming(free). Deposits believe it or not cost banks BIG time. Think of costs at point of deposit(branches, agents/cashiers/personnel, platforms), security of the deposits physical(guards, transit vans, safes) or digital(cybersecurity personnel), accounting (systems, personnel). Beforehand deposits paid for their own costs but now someone has to pay. I can guarantee banks are, as we speak, crunching the numbers. Transaction costs will rise(before you jump with the CS approval line, I'm talking about existing fees), ATM charges rising 100%--from around KES 30 to 60+ etc.Notice how personnel featured severally in the deposit-taking costs? Yep, lay-offs. Like I said someone has to pay.

I know a few SACCO's that are salivating at this prospect. Banks are not the only deposit taking institutions around. As for bank layoffs, they have been doing that already.


3. Fall of small banks, rise of big(ger) banks.
Big banks will be able to weather the initial credit freeze. Deep pockets mean easy to diversify. Small banks not so much. And its a catch 22 situation for them. Deny credit and not make money. Lend at low rates and be forced to play with volumes game to break even, and with it risk of default shoots. People will see these banks again going under with customer deposits, coz of defaults. So yes M&As will happen but it will be big swallowing small.

Consolidation in the Bank sector, ala Nigeria, is long overdue and if the bill accelerates it, well and good. I never bought the Governors argument about niche banking. It takes size and capital to take niche ideas to scale, which is what ultimately benefits the economy.

4. Fall of production
Forget the car/smartphone buying consumers for a sec. Businesses esp SMEs being locked out from credit access to fuel their expansion/survival. With that, loss of productivity, worsened by being in an election year. Businesses contract and at best, hiring freeze. More likely, further lay offs.

There is little worse that can happen to SME's than is already happening to them now. Think of it: what kind of business could you do that will give you enough returns to service a loan at 25%? As for the fall in consumption lending, I say it can't come soon enough.

5. Our regulatory environment has been going haywire. We have already seen multinationals leaving, expect that to worsen. With net flight of forex comes weakening of KES. We're a net import country, weaker shilling means more expensive goods. In an environment of credit crunch and lay-offs mind you.

The flight of hot money, back to wherever it came from, is not an economic disaster. Do you remember the story of Mahathir Mohamend? He was once warned (by the World Bank) that that the Malaysian economy would collapse if he dared control the entry of speculative capital into Malaysia. The reverse in fact happened.


Here's a tip:
Remember unsecured loans will be/have been withdrawn among them "Emergency Loans". Wait for an increase in those calls of "nisaidie na ka-loan". Also a lot of people are paid(perhaps unknowingly) by credit facilities. Again salary delays...

Here is my counter tip: technological innovation. Expect to see a massive increase in the micro lending platforms going forward. With their low transaction costs, this is the one product where banks can continue to rake in the money even at 14%. As for risk, I know a guy at one of the CRB's who has been been pushing banks to move past their reliance on credit officers and hard collateral, in favor of credit rating scores. He has proven that a loan decision made by a credit officer is no more reliable than that made by using a score. He must be smiling as well. So, ultimately, should Wanjiku.

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#743 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 1:05:07 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
MaichBlack wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
President Uhuru has been a big disappointment on this one. He turned down the advice of Treasury and Central Bank for political reasons. He promised people lower interest rates in the last campaign and he is going to face them again.

He knows this law is f#*ked up (he was briefed by his technocrats) but he had politics/re-election to think about!! Central Bank as so pissed off they said they will not comment on the signing of the bill. Finance Secretary also refused to comment and referred questions to the Attorney General. Who are these other people who advised him to an extent of disregarding the advice of Treasury and CBK???

A president who is willing to mess the whole financial ecosystem to get re-elected is a big no for me!

But this has guaranteed his re-election!!!! Politics and politicians, it is all about survival smile

I doubt this will help him. I doubt Cordishians will vote for him just because he signed the bill. His die hard supporters would still have voted for him either way.

He has actually lost the votes of some people.


Yes he has lost the votes of Wazuans and their elitist kin. All 900 of them.

Big deal
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
nzalela
#744 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 1:06:08 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 4/11/2016
Posts: 30
Location: Nairobi

Guys. This is the best gift Mr. Market has given us in a long time. Look through the noise,fear and panic. Remember big money is made in times like these.

The bill doesnt mention forex margins,fees and commissions and doesnt touch markets outside Kenya.

Lots of cheap funds available globally that can replace high cost of deposits. They just need to unwind high rate deposits lock incoming ones and borrow cheaply elsewhere.
mibbz
#745 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 1:26:37 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/18/2011
Posts: 448
Wakanyugi wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
President Uhuru has been a big disappointment on this one. He turned down the advice of Treasury and Central Bank for political reasons. He promised people lower interest rates in the last campaign and he is going to face them again.

He knows this law is f#*ked up (he was briefed by his technocrats) but he had politics/re-election to think about!! Central Bank as so pissed off they said they will not comment on the signing of the bill. Finance Secretary also refused to comment and referred questions to the Attorney General. Who are these other people who advised him to an extent of disregarding the advice of Treasury and CBK???

A president who is willing to mess the whole financial ecosystem to get re-elected is a big no for me!

But this has guaranteed his re-election!!!! Politics and politicians, it is all about survival smile

I doubt this will help him. I doubt Cordishians will vote for him just because he signed the bill. His die hard supporters would still have voted for him either way.

He has actually lost the votes of some people.


Yes he has lost the votes of Wazuans and their elitist kin. All 900 of them.

Big deal



@Wakanyugi good one!! Lol.

I support Mr. President. As a country,we would like to be a global powerhouse and with that, we have to set the pace on ground breaking decisions however un-populist they seem tom be with a particular segment of he population. We have tried the banks ways for the past 15 years and didn't work so let us try the alternative.

Lastly, in economics like politics, there is no one correct answer but a cluster of thoughts, ideas,postulations,theories and lessons from past successes and mistakes. We often forget, we cannot predict the future but merely offer suggestions on what might happen or not.

MaichBlack
#746 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 1:34:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,452
Wakanyugi wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
President Uhuru has been a big disappointment on this one. He turned down the advice of Treasury and Central Bank for political reasons. He promised people lower interest rates in the last campaign and he is going to face them again.

He knows this law is f#*ked up (he was briefed by his technocrats) but he had politics/re-election to think about!! Central Bank as so pissed off they said they will not comment on the signing of the bill. Finance Secretary also refused to comment and referred questions to the Attorney General. Who are these other people who advised him to an extent of disregarding the advice of Treasury and CBK???

A president who is willing to mess the whole financial ecosystem to get re-elected is a big no for me!

But this has guaranteed his re-election!!!! Politics and politicians, it is all about survival smile

I doubt this will help him. I doubt Cordishians will vote for him just because he signed the bill. His die hard supporters would still have voted for him either way.

He has actually lost the votes of some people.


Yes he has lost the votes of Wazuans and their elitist kin. All 900 of them.

Big deal

As I said, as @guru said, he was to be re-elected before the bill and he will be re-elected after the bill. So relax because that is your biggest problem. My biggest problem is the economy so I cannot relax!!!
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
MaichBlack
#747 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 1:38:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,452
mibbz wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
President Uhuru has been a big disappointment on this one. He turned down the advice of Treasury and Central Bank for political reasons. He promised people lower interest rates in the last campaign and he is going to face them again.

He knows this law is f#*ked up (he was briefed by his technocrats) but he had politics/re-election to think about!! Central Bank as so pissed off they said they will not comment on the signing of the bill. Finance Secretary also refused to comment and referred questions to the Attorney General. Who are these other people who advised him to an extent of disregarding the advice of Treasury and CBK???

A president who is willing to mess the whole financial ecosystem to get re-elected is a big no for me!

But this has guaranteed his re-election!!!! Politics and politicians, it is all about survival smile

I doubt this will help him. I doubt Cordishians will vote for him just because he signed the bill. His die hard supporters would still have voted for him either way.

He has actually lost the votes of some people.


Yes he has lost the votes of Wazuans and their elitist kin. All 900 of them.

Big deal



@Wakanyugi good one!! Lol.

I support Mr. President. As a country,we would like to be a global powerhouse and with that, we have to set the pace on ground breaking decisions however un-populist they seem tom be with a particular segment of he population. We have tried the banks ways for the past 15 years and didn't work so let us try the alternative.

Lastly, in economics like politics, there is no one correct answer but a cluster of thoughts, ideas,postulations,theories and lessons from past successes and mistakes. We often forget, we cannot predict the future but merely offer suggestions on what might happen or not.


Ground breaking decisions that have been tried before, failed and reversed including in your own country??? Do you guys just use teems for the sake?

And your last paragraph sounds like.... (I can't find a soft word and I don't want to sound rude. But you get my point).
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
mibbz
#748 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 1:40:26 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/18/2011
Posts: 448
Even AfDB agree banks have been fleecing clients for a while.

http://www.businessdaily...tem-0-wtn4bez/index.html
mibbz
#749 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 1:47:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/18/2011
Posts: 448
MaichBlack wrote:
mibbz wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
President Uhuru has been a big disappointment on this one. He turned down the advice of Treasury and Central Bank for political reasons. He promised people lower interest rates in the last campaign and he is going to face them again.

He knows this law is f#*ked up (he was briefed by his technocrats) but he had politics/re-election to think about!! Central Bank as so pissed off they said they will not comment on the signing of the bill. Finance Secretary also refused to comment and referred questions to the Attorney General. Who are these other people who advised him to an extent of disregarding the advice of Treasury and CBK???

A president who is willing to mess the whole financial ecosystem to get re-elected is a big no for me!

But this has guaranteed his re-election!!!! Politics and politicians, it is all about survival smile

I doubt this will help him. I doubt Cordishians will vote for him just because he signed the bill. His die hard supporters would still have voted for him either way.

He has actually lost the votes of some people.


Yes he has lost the votes of Wazuans and their elitist kin. All 900 of them.

Big deal



@Wakanyugi good one!! Lol.

I support Mr. President. As a country,we would like to be a global powerhouse and with that, we have to set the pace on ground breaking decisions however un-populist they seem tom be with a particular segment of he population. We have tried the banks ways for the past 15 years and didn't work so let us try the alternative.

Lastly, in economics like politics, there is no one correct answer but a cluster of thoughts, ideas,postulations,theories and lessons from past successes and mistakes. We often forget, we cannot predict the future but merely offer suggestions on what might happen or not.


Ground breaking decisions that have been tried before, failed and reversed including in your own country??? Do you guys just use teems for the sake?

And your last paragraph sounds like.... (I can't find a soft word and I don't want to sound rude. But you get my point).



@Maich,Bs* or not its a truth,economic theory is just as sketchy as politics. In fact there is a saying 'Be very afraid when all economists agree on one point'

As a country we have failed before in many things but that does not invalidate them once we factor in the concept of 'time'. We are in a different age all together.





tafutabiz
#750 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 2:01:02 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 10/3/2014
Posts: 20
Let us hope that this law will help break the cartel. Let us fight the resistance (if banks will stage any). Let us win and move to other sectors. We are so used to oppression by the predators. When they make such obscene profits we start celebrating the big taxes they pay? Forgetting that they are paying what you should have payed in other ways, but here, they have made a kill already. Let us support the president. Forget those free market economics theories, they are for ideal environments. Since the Donde bill, the Banks should have reasoned with the Wanjiku?

Imagine even with the last CBR rate downward review, no bank cared to pass the benefits to Wanjiku despite constant calls by the Governor and treasury!
streetwise
#751 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 2:16:21 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 6/23/2011
Posts: 1,740
Location: Nairobi
Boris Boyka
#752 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 2:21:46 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/15/2013
Posts: 1,977
Location: Here
@Maichblack are you happy when banks are milking us with high loan interest rates then offer meagre interest on our deposits?
If No then what are your workable solutions here?
Everybody STEALS, a THIEF is one who's CAUGHT stealing something of LITTLE VALUE. !!!
jgithige
#753 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 2:22:09 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/10/2014
Posts: 145
Location: Nairobi
Kenya has joined other economies in capping interest rates. Namely: USA,UK, China,Canada,Germany, South Africa, Nigeria just to mention a few.
I wonder why the surprise with us following suit.
"Blowing out someone else candle won't make yours shine brighter"-Anonymous
instinct
#754 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 2:31:42 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/17/2007
Posts: 294
jgithige wrote:
Kenya has joined other economies in capping interest rates. Namely: USA,UK, China,Canada,Germany, South Africa, Nigeria just to mention a few.
I wonder why the surprise with us following suit.


Rates in the US are not capped!!
Boris Boyka
#755 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 2:32:46 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/15/2013
Posts: 1,977
Location: Here
jgithige wrote:
Kenya has joined other economies in capping interest rates. Namely: USA,UK, China,Canada,Germany, South Africa, Nigeria just to mention a few.
I wonder why the surprise with us following suit.

...yet many Wazuans and Kenyans like emulating and giving examples of the west!
Everybody STEALS, a THIEF is one who's CAUGHT stealing something of LITTLE VALUE. !!!
researchfirst
#756 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 2:36:16 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 154
Location: Nairobi
jgithige wrote:
Kenya has joined other economies in capping interest rates. Namely: USA,UK, China,Canada,Germany, South Africa, Nigeria just to mention a few.
I wonder why the surprise with us following suit.


Read this paper: http://documents.worldba...but-a-blunt-instrument.

Even if you agree with the concept of capping rates, the devil is in the details and the surrounding policy environment matters. Here in Kenya, we have a poorly written law coupled with a level of government borrowing that essentially guarantees high interest rates. Hence the surprise. In other words, we just shot ourselves in the face. People tend to get surprised when you do that.


KNM
#757 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 2:36:18 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/28/2008
Posts: 41
Wakanyugi wrote:
KNM wrote:
This is how I see it playing out, should this law stand.
For one, equilibrium will be reached. So good news for the pro-rate cap crowd. Well sort of...

1. Freeze/slow down in lending: Already began btw. By removing their ability to adequately price the risk into loans(coz thats whats happened!) then better safe than sorry. The leaked memo yesterday was just an example. All will follow suit esp with the unsecured loans.

I don't see banks tightening the nose already around their necks. Banks primary business is to 'buy' and 'sell' money. So they stop doing that and do what? Sell mandazi?


True. But why do you assume that it will be you they sell to? The biggest cheering squad is also the one that will be locked out. Mark you, the law is on rate only. So for existing loans, the duration may be extended outrageously. So if you're cheering your reduced loan...ole wako. Government, external markets are all avenues for growth. Less risky even.


2. Refusal of deposits
Now plenty of people are confused by this. Nobody is saying a bouncer is at the door stopping you from depositing, it means less welcoming(free). Deposits believe it or not cost banks BIG time. Think of costs at point of deposit(branches, agents/cashiers/personnel, platforms), security of the deposits physical(guards, transit vans, safes) or digital(cybersecurity personnel), accounting (systems, personnel). Beforehand deposits paid for their own costs but now someone has to pay. I can guarantee banks are, as we speak, crunching the numbers. Transaction costs will rise(before you jump with the CS approval line, I'm talking about existing fees), ATM charges rising 100%--from around KES 30 to 60+ etc.Notice how personnel featured severally in the deposit-taking costs? Yep, lay-offs. Like I said someone has to pay.

I know a few SACCO's that are salivating at this prospect. Banks are not the only deposit taking institutions around. As for bank layoffs, they have been doing that already.


Are you saying SACCOs will replace banks? And even as they "eat" banks business they swell until they become...? Banks. d'oh!

3. Fall of small banks, rise of big(ger) banks.
Big banks will be able to weather the initial credit freeze. Deep pockets mean easy to diversify. Small banks not so much. And its a catch 22 situation for them. Deny credit and not make money. Lend at low rates and be forced to play with volumes game to break even, and with it risk of default shoots. People will see these banks again going under with customer deposits, coz of defaults. So yes M&As will happen but it will be big swallowing small.

Consolidation in the Bank sector, ala Nigeria, is long overdue and if the bill accelerates it, well and good. I never bought the Governors argument about niche banking. It takes size and capital to take niche ideas to scale, which is what ultimately benefits the economy.

So above you welcome competition from SACCOs but here oligopolies are good. Really? Shame on you


4. Fall of production
Forget the car/smartphone buying consumers for a sec. Businesses esp SMEs being locked out from credit access to fuel their expansion/survival. With that, loss of productivity, worsened by being in an election year. Businesses contract and at best, hiring freeze. More likely, further lay offs.

There is little worse that can happen to SME's than is already happening to them now. Think of it: what kind of business could you do that will give you enough returns to service a loan at 25%? As for the fall in consumption lending, I say it can't come soon enough.

SMEs were being weighed down, yes. But now they will be all out starved. In growth, slow>none>negative.


5. Our regulatory environment has been going haywire. We have already seen multinationals leaving, expect that to worsen. With net flight of forex comes weakening of KES. We're a net import country, weaker shilling means more expensive goods. In an environment of credit crunch and lay-offs mind you.

The flight of hot money, back to wherever it came from, is not an economic disaster. Do you remember the story of Mahathir Mohamend? He was once warned (by the World Bank) that that the Malaysian economy would collapse if he dared control the entry of speculative capital into Malaysia. The reverse in fact happened.

"Hot" money. Dismissive. What will replace it? Before you say local, keep in mind we are celebrating "cheap" money. Malaysia was at the time being swept up in a bigger crisis. The problem was not in their own fundamentals, it was blind sentiment towards an entire region. In our case, it's OUR fundamentals. Growing debt levels. And that we steal or waste BORROWED money. SGR for example, can you honestly say it will pay for its own enormous cost?


Here's a tip:
Remember unsecured loans will be/have been withdrawn among them "Emergency Loans". Wait for an increase in those calls of "nisaidie na ka-loan". Also a lot of people are paid(perhaps unknowingly) by credit facilities. Again salary delays...

Here is my counter tip: technological innovation. Expect to see a massive increase in the micro lending platforms going forward. With their low transaction costs, this is the one product where banks can continue to rake in the money even at 14%. As for risk, I know a guy at one of the CRB's who has been been pushing banks to move past their reliance on credit officers and hard collateral, in favor of credit rating scores. He has proven that a loan decision made by a credit officer is no more reliable than that made by using a score. He must be smiling as well. So, ultimately, should Wanjiku.


The crowd will cheer your coronation as well as your beheading. People like a show, that's all.
jgithige
#758 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 2:40:38 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/10/2014
Posts: 145
Location: Nairobi
researchfirst wrote:
jgithige wrote:
Kenya has joined other economies in capping interest rates. Namely: USA,UK, China,Canada,Germany, South Africa, Nigeria just to mention a few.
I wonder why the surprise with us following suit.


Read this paper: http://documents.worldba...but-a-blunt-instrument.

Even if you agree with the concept of capping rates, the devil is in the details and the surrounding policy environment matters. Here in Kenya, we have a poorly written law coupled with a level of government borrowing that essentially guarantees high interest rates. Hence the surprise. In other words, we just shot ourselves in the face. People tend to get surprised when you do that.




Its a wait and see. Time will tell
"Blowing out someone else candle won't make yours shine brighter"-Anonymous
Boris Boyka
#759 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 3:00:54 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/15/2013
Posts: 1,977
Location: Here
jgithige wrote:
researchfirst wrote:
jgithige wrote:
Kenya has joined other economies in capping interest rates. Namely: USA,UK, China,Canada,Germany, South Africa, Nigeria just to mention a few.
I wonder why the surprise with us following suit.


Read this paper: http://documents.worldba...but-a-blunt-instrument.

Even if you agree with the concept of capping rates, the devil is in the details and the surrounding policy environment matters. Here in Kenya, we have a poorly written law coupled with a level of government borrowing that essentially guarantees high interest rates. Hence the surprise. In other words, we just shot ourselves in the face. People tend to get surprised when you do that.




Its a wait and see. Time will tell

People feared the new Constitution they feared devolution. Both came with good and bad but greater is the good after storms settle.
Everybody STEALS, a THIEF is one who's CAUGHT stealing something of LITTLE VALUE. !!!
Boris Boyka
#760 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 3:45:11 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/15/2013
Posts: 1,977
Location: Here
Something am thinking about, could banks lower interests but adopt fixed instead of reducing balance? I understand 14% flat rate is expensive than 18% reducing balance.
Everybody STEALS, a THIEF is one who's CAUGHT stealing something of LITTLE VALUE. !!!
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