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SGR Progress thus far
kollabo
#181 Posted : Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:06:13 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/3/2012
Posts: 1,317
SGR planned route into Nairobi National Park has now been shelved. Thats a relief!!

But that means additional costs to compensate land owners on alternative route.
aemathenge
#182 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 2:18:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/18/2008
Posts: 3,434
Location: Kerugoya
Extract Copy and paste

Source: The Economist

Link:

Railways in Africa (Kenia?) Puffed out

Africa’s new railways risk going the way of the old ones

If only governments were as enthusiastic about maintaining infrastructure as they are about building it.

On a continent where almost everything is reused, from mobile-phone parts to plastic bags, governments (Kenian?) seem to prefer to buy shiny new things, however expensive.

Rehabilitating the older line might have cost just 5% as much as building a new one on a new right of way, reckons Pierre Pozzo di Borgo of the International Finance Corporation, part of the World Bank.

Could this be because the new railway is a dud investment? Its fastest trains will do a fairly mediocre 80kph.

Much as with the old railway, parts of the new line will be single-track, forcing trains to stop, often for hours, to let others pass.

Most absurdly, it is built to a lower standard of load-bearing than most other new freight railways.

Some fret it may not be possible to load four full containers onto each wagon, as is done on other new lines. “They’re getting a third-rate railway for the cost of a very expensive one,” says a consultant.

The new track is costing Kenya about $4 billion, mostly funded by a loan from the Chinese ExIm bank, but how it will be repaid is unclear.

Although only a year remains before completion, not only are tariffs and rates undecided, but it is not even clear who will run the railway.

Kenyan officials have apparently taken to skipping trade conferences of late to avoid answering questions.
aemathenge
#183 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 2:30:26 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/18/2008
Posts: 3,434
Location: Kerugoya
Comment One: Copy and Paste

Ethiopia is paying $3-4 billion to China for an electrified railway with substantial double track between Addis Abeba and Djbouti over terrain significantly more complicated than Kenya and slightly longer distance. Freight trains will travel at 120kmph and passenger trains at 160kmph, significantly faster than Kenya's 80kmph and 120kmph respectively. Electrification is typically about 1/3 of the cost too.

Furthermore, Kenya will only operate 2 daily passenger trains with refurbished Chinese cars. While the trains will carry more than 900 passengers, the slightly more than 4 hour travel time will create significant travel demand because current options are either flying, an 8 hour overnight bus, or 13 hour overnight train. I imagine there will be substantial demand for passenger trains but the railway won't have the capacity or coaches to add more.
aemathenge
#184 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 2:32:38 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/18/2008
Posts: 3,434
Location: Kerugoya
Comment Two: Copy and Paste

The Kenyan railway project eptomises all that is wrong with infrastructure projects in many African countries;

1 Excessive cost; the existing line could have been upgraded at 5% of the cost of the new project. However, high cost projects have good political PR value and provide more opportunities for skimming off funds.

2 No economic rationale or long term planning; cost/benefit analysis on many of these projects is simply non existant.

3 Doomed to failure; the absence of any maintenance programme has and will continue to consign these projects to long term failure.

At their worst these projects are simply great opportunities for skimming off government funds; at their best they display as much long term planning as a Donald Trump speech.
majimaji
#185 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 3:12:22 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/4/2007
Posts: 1,162
Rehabilitating the older line might have cost just 5% as much as building a new one on a new right of way, reckons Pierre Pozzo di Borgo of the International Finance Corporation, part of the World Bank.

Is this a fact? What does it mean that Mr di Borgo reckons? I would say that the nabobs of the Western financial systems were not happy with Kenya going East to China to fund the SGR project. A case of sour grapes. The TE should also do due diligence and get the Kenya side of view, saying officials play hide and seek (so as not to give information) is being pedantic
kayhara
#186 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 3:16:12 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/5/2011
Posts: 1,059
Not very useful comment below

Watched a video by a Kenyan with knowledge about transport on a certain thread with Ndii, and this were his comments

1-No one need or benefits from cargo moving more that 40km/h
a client will not opt to pay 100/- for same day delivery if there is a 5/- option but 10 times slower.

2-Passengers want to get to their destinations faster, but world over mass passenger transport is very expensive and largely unprofitable unless heavily subsided by the govt.

3-There is the vague agreement to compensate RVR for lost business with the SGR construction.

4-who said we needed to raise our single line, this will bring maintenance costs high and separate the wildlife habitat it's trying to over-pass, ie apart from where we have pillars the rest of the railway creates a big barrier with tunnel like crossings which animals will definitely avoid.

5-the proposed cost for a Nairobi Mombasa ticket is 5,000/- for this amount one can fly return at 6,000/- plus most Kenyans who would like to use the train would rather stick to Chania at 700/- the other option would be for the government to subsidize it heavily to below 1,000/- which does not help seeing the huge debt.

6-BUT because we have built it,our problem now is to make it make economic sense,already this is shaky seeing the Uganda,Rwanda being unsure if to proceed, taking the railway to naivasha is also stupid, we would rather extend the southern bypass to Nakuru instead.

The railway will be cheered like jambojet then the customers who can afford will use it the mass will stick to good old buses
To Each His Own
Obi 1 Kanobi
#187 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 3:27:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
aemathenge wrote:
Extract Copy and paste

Source: The Economist

Link:

Railways in Africa (Kenia?) Puffed out

Africa’s new railways risk going the way of the old ones

If only governments were as enthusiastic about maintaining infrastructure as they are about building it.

On a continent where almost everything is reused, from mobile-phone parts to plastic bags, governments (Kenian?) seem to prefer to buy shiny new things, however expensive.

Rehabilitating the older line might have cost just 5% as much as building a new one on a new right of way, reckons Pierre Pozzo di Borgo of the International Finance Corporation, part of the World Bank.

Could this be because the new railway is a dud investment? Its fastest trains will do a fairly mediocre 80kph.

Much as with the old railway, parts of the new line will be single-track, forcing trains to stop, often for hours, to let others pass.

Most absurdly, it is built to a lower standard of load-bearing than most other new freight railways.

Some fret it may not be possible to load four full containers onto each wagon, as is done on other new lines. “They’re getting a third-rate railway for the cost of a very expensive one,” says a consultant.

The new track is costing Kenya about $4 billion, mostly funded by a loan from the Chinese ExIm bank, but how it will be repaid is unclear.

Although only a year remains before completion, not only are tariffs and rates undecided, but it is not even clear who will run the railway.

Kenyan officials have apparently taken to skipping trade conferences of late to avoid answering questions.


I really want to scream at someone. But instead, I 'll drop by my Ka'local for a few.

I know for certain that the Kenyan technical team that signed the SGR are as brilliant as any engineer elsewhere in the world. The management and directors who approved the deals are equally informed.

I am happy for them that they made a kill. May they enjoy their new found wealth, enjoy their houses in Karen, drive the expensive 4X4's, keep three young gachungwa's, drink single malt whiskeys, holiday in France and live with the satisfaction of knowing that they screwed 40 million people, when the rest of us mortals rarely crack 10 over a lifetime.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
Jus Blazin
#188 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 5:20:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/23/2008
Posts: 3,966
I remember we complained the same way about Thika Road... In addition, people keep mixing up UG pipeline and UG railway line. Rwanda opted for TZ because UG prioritized Juba over Kigali. UG will still connect to our SGR. Also, has it been really confirmed that the fare will be 5k, or are we just being typical Kenyans?
Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
sitaki.kujulikana
#189 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 5:31:35 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/25/2012
Posts: 1,826
Jus Blazin wrote:
I remember we complained the same way about Thika Road... In addition, people keep mixing up UG pipeline and UG railway line. Rwanda opted for TZ because UG prioritized Juba over Kigali. UG will still connect to our SGR. Also, has it been really confirmed that the fare will be 5k, or are we just being typical Kenyans?

just typical kenyans, we like to complain about everything.
murchr
#190 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 5:43:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
aemathenge wrote:
Extract Copy and paste

Source: The Economist

Link:

Railways in Africa (Kenia?) Puffed out

Africa’s new railways risk going the way of the old ones

If only governments were as enthusiastic about maintaining infrastructure as they are about building it.

On a continent where almost everything is reused, from mobile-phone parts to plastic bags, governments (Kenian?) seem to prefer to buy shiny new things, however expensive.

Rehabilitating the older line might have cost just 5% as much as building a new one on a new right of way, reckons Pierre Pozzo di Borgo of the International Finance Corporation, part of the World Bank.

Could this be because the new railway is a dud investment? Its fastest trains will do a fairly mediocre 80kph.

Much as with the old railway, parts of the new line will be single-track, forcing trains to stop, often for hours, to let others pass.

Most absurdly, it is built to a lower standard of load-bearing than most other new freight railways.

Some fret it may not be possible to load four full containers onto each wagon, as is done on other new lines. “They’re getting a third-rate railway for the cost of a very expensive one,” says a consultant.

The new track is costing Kenya about $4 billion, mostly funded by a loan from the Chinese ExIm bank, but how it will be repaid is unclear.

Although only a year remains before completion, not only are tariffs and rates undecided, but it is not even clear who will run the railway.

Kenyan officials have apparently taken to skipping trade conferences of late to avoid answering questions.


I really want to scream at someone. But instead, I 'll drop by my Ka'local for a few.

I know for certain that the Kenyan technical team that signed the SGR are as brilliant as any engineer elsewhere in the world. The management and directors who approved the deals are equally informed.

I am happy for them that they made a kill. May they enjoy their new found wealth, enjoy their houses in Karen, drive the expensive 4X4's, keep three young gachungwa's, drink single malt whiskeys, holiday in France and live with the satisfaction of knowing that they screwed 40 million people, when the rest of us mortals rarely crack 10 over a lifetime.


Laughing out loudly Spare your emotions. That same economist published an article that Kenya had 13000 deaths in 2013. I wonder where they get the numbers.

Quote:
Amusing as these dodges may be, the consequences are not. In 2013 as many as 13,000 people died on Kenya’s roads. In Britain, which has a somewhat bigger population and vastly more cars, the figure was 1,700. Of the ten most dangerous countries in the world for road deaths, only two, Iran and Thailand, are not in Africa.


http://www.economist.com...c78ce91909083042ad12e30

"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Thiong'o
#191 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 5:48:44 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/14/2011
Posts: 661
Jus Blazin wrote:
I remember we complained the same way about Thika Road... In addition, people keep mixing up UG pipeline and UG railway line. Rwanda opted for TZ because UG prioritized Juba over Kigali. UG will still connect to our SGR. Also, has it been really confirmed that the fare will be 5k, or are we just being typical Kenyans?

I like your points but still that's not enough justification for a project of that magnitude,you might have to add some more...
murchr
#192 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 6:00:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Economist wrote:
Although only a year remains before completion, not only are tariffs and rates undecided, but it is not even clear who will run the railway. Kenyan officials have apparently taken to skipping trade conferences of late to avoid answering questions.


The chinese for the first 5 years

Quote:
Could this be because the new railway is a dud investment? Its fastest trains will do a fairly mediocre 80kph. Much as with the old railway, parts of the new line will be single-track, forcing trains to stop, often for hours, to let others pass.


From this you can tell the writer thinks a trains run like cars, he doesnt seem to understand that in most cases trains operate in one track, and timing is everything.

"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Thitifini
#193 Posted : Friday, June 03, 2016 8:10:57 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/15/2015
Posts: 681
Location: Kenya
murchr wrote:
Economist wrote:
Although only a year remains before completion, not only are tariffs and rates undecided, but it is not even clear who will run the railway. Kenyan officials have apparently taken to skipping trade conferences of late to avoid answering questions.


The chinese for the first 5 years

Quote:
Could this be because the new railway is a dud investment? Its fastest trains will do a fairly mediocre 80kph. Much as with the old railway, parts of the new line will be single-track, forcing trains to stop, often for hours, to let others pass.


From this you can tell the writer thinks a trains run like cars, he doesnt seem to understand that in most cases trains operate in one track, and timing is everything.



Coincidence? Reading of the "Lunatic Express" debate in the late 1890's?

I prefer we have an expensive line constructed in our time than the old saying ""they" have never constructed an inch of rail since the we left"

And, how does he say we can use 5% of the sgr sum in upgrading the old line "without compensation for new leave of way"? The curves in the old line are just too much for a moving machine ata at 20kmph!

60% Learning, 30% synthesizing, 10% Debating
Taurrus
#194 Posted : Saturday, June 04, 2016 3:00:29 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/25/2015
Posts: 839
Location: Kite
Been wondering the difference between the old and SGR lines,to my surprise its ONLY the width, damn!
sitaki.kujulikana
#195 Posted : Saturday, June 04, 2016 3:45:56 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/25/2012
Posts: 1,826
Taurrus wrote:
Been wondering the difference between the old and SGR lines,to my surprise its ONLY the width, damn!

yes, plus of more importance is that the current sgr line being laid can accommodate higher speeds than the older one.
murchr
#196 Posted : Saturday, June 04, 2016 3:51:49 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
Taurrus wrote:
Been wondering the difference between the old and SGR lines,to my surprise its ONLY the width, damn!

yes, plus of more importance is that the current sgr line being laid can accommodate higher speeds than the older one.


And higher load capacity
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
kaka2za
#197 Posted : Saturday, June 04, 2016 4:28:20 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/3/2008
Posts: 4,057
Location: Gwitu
murchr wrote:
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
Taurrus wrote:
Been wondering the difference between the old and SGR lines,to my surprise its ONLY the width, damn!

yes, plus of more importance is that the current sgr line being laid can accommodate higher speeds than the older one.


And higher load capacity


Higher speeds yes,load capacity not quite.
Truth forever on the scaffold
Wrong forever on the throne
(James Russell Rowell)
murchr
#198 Posted : Saturday, June 04, 2016 4:49:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
kaka2za wrote:
murchr wrote:
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
Taurrus wrote:
Been wondering the difference between the old and SGR lines,to my surprise its ONLY the width, damn!

yes, plus of more importance is that the current sgr line being laid can accommodate higher speeds than the older one.


And higher load capacity


Higher speeds yes,load capacity not quite.


In general, the narrower the gage the more the restrictions while the broader the gauge the more the capacity. Metre Gauge allows 47 Kg load per metre of rail while Standard Gauge allows 60 Kg load per metre of rail.

That's why america changed their gauges from sgr to broad gauge.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Taurrus
#199 Posted : Saturday, June 04, 2016 7:57:51 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/25/2015
Posts: 839
Location: Kite
murchr wrote:
kaka2za wrote:
murchr wrote:
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
Taurrus wrote:
Been wondering the difference between the old and SGR lines,to my surprise its ONLY the width, damn!

yes, plus of more importance is that the current sgr line being laid can accommodate higher speeds than the older one.


And higher load capacity


Higher speeds yes,load capacity not quite.


In general, the narrower the gage the more the restrictions while the broader the gauge the more the capacity. Metre Gauge allows 47 Kg load per metre of rail while Standard Gauge allows 60 Kg load per metre of rail.

That's why america changed their gauges from sgr to broad gauge.

If thats the case then,why build a new line instead of widening the old?Sad
kaka2za
#200 Posted : Saturday, June 04, 2016 8:28:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/3/2008
Posts: 4,057
Location: Gwitu
Taurrus wrote:
murchr wrote:
kaka2za wrote:
murchr wrote:
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
Taurrus wrote:
Been wondering the difference between the old and SGR lines,to my surprise its ONLY the width, damn!

yes, plus of more importance is that the current sgr line being laid can accommodate higher speeds than the older one.


And higher load capacity


Higher speeds yes,load capacity not quite.


In general, the narrower the gage the more the restrictions while the broader the gauge the more the capacity. Metre Gauge allows 47 Kg load per metre of rail while Standard Gauge allows 60 Kg load per metre of rail.

That's why america changed their gauges from sgr to broad gauge.

If thats the case then,why build a new line instead of widening the old?Sad


Not that easy. The Metre gauge can withstand tough terrain which SG cant
Truth forever on the scaffold
Wrong forever on the throne
(James Russell Rowell)
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