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Cord attempts to storm IEBC offices
Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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sitaki.kujulikana wrote:Jaina wrote:sitaki.kujulikana wrote:Ngalaka wrote:I think the basic thing here is that we need to appreciate how presidential democracy works.
Despite the political party dimension, the legislative arm does sometimes act independent and against the desire of the executive. Even in the US some Democrats in Congress do sometimes vote against bills he supports.
I don’t hold brief for Jubilee but to opine that they are insincere for requiring that the IEBC matter be referred to either parliament or the courts is to miss the point.
For starters those are two options. Secondly it is never a given that once you refer a matter to parliament you must get your way, otherwise even theoretically legislators are supposed to debate and cast their votes in the interest of their constituents FIRST, and probably party SECOND.
Obviously Democracy is not perfect but any other known alternative is worse.
There are no easy options, you take your matter to Parliament and hope for the best as you lobby your best. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose.
I never heard Uhuru assure Cord that if they used the parliament route they will DEFINITELY have their way, but it is the civilised route to take in a democracy. The alternative is chaos.
A leader should be able to build consensus, if you can not do that how on earth will you rule. Consensus with who?. RAO?. 1. IEBC is not the problem, because if it was even if Isaak Hassan and team are replaced, the "forest" will still be the same with the same "monkeys" 2. RAO doesnt care about the country, he cares about himself. If his personal interests are not met, he will create chaos.And Kalonzo once said " Raila Thrives on Chaos" 3. RAO wants to be in Govt. The "Nusu Mkate" version come rain or sunshine. Today they are saying - No to IEBC, What do they want in its place? FBI? Tomorrow they will say - No to Courts Next day they will say - Occupy Statehouse The uprisings that happened in Egypt, Libya, Syria have not made those countries great, they made them many times worse. The government should use all means necessary to stop the " OCCUPY IEBC" NONSENSE I meant the 4 principles, if they really want to be in leadership, they need to learn how to build consensus, if even after putting together all their intellect they can't convince a few tna or urp members to support their cause then I don't see how they can rule the country Can we also argue that Uhuru and/or Jubilee govt has failed to build consensus on the IEBC issue and therefore failed in leadership? If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/14/2006 Posts: 1,311
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My Hypothesis:
If CORD does not follow the constitutional means to change the IEBC commissioners, too bad no changes will take place. Demonstrations and violence will not move the Duo..... These 2 guys have been to hell and back (ICC) ....demonstrations and violence means nothing, Police will take care of that as part of security matters, the Duo are different from Kibaki and I think they will not bend backward to accommodate Rao.
Today the headlines in the western capitals are negative about Kenya but this will not change anything. Some ordinary Kenyans and business & other leaders will be worried about this negativity and violence ... But unless the changes are introduced through Parliament, nothing will change. These Western journalists will continue to write whatever they want until they get tired.
If Parliament does not come up with a new law regarding IEBC, we will go to the 2017 with the current IEBC commissioners, nothing will change. If CORD boycotts the election so be it, the country will still go on with elections and have a government in place after that. Besides every county will have a governor and CORD can only boycott National elections.
If the duo give in and allow dialogue with CORD that will be the beginning of real chaos. This country cannot afford to have a divided IEBC where commissioners are more loyal to their parties than the country.... Unless we are ready to have the country divided or another nusu mkate government where the constitution will have to be changed in a crisis. This is what CORD wants to put in place ..... That the government and opposition nominates the IEBC commissioners on 50:50 basis directly. You can expect to have that IEBC announcing 2 sets of results in 2017.....each with a different presidential election winner like it happened in Côte Dvoire. And that may as well be the end of Kenya as we know it.
We would rather have the current demonstrations and violence continue every week until 2017 if CORD cannot follow the constitutional means of changing IEBC. Any changes on IEBC must be taken through parliament, and they can only occur if IEBC commissioners decide to resign or parliament changes the law and does away with the current commissioners. If the IEBC commissioners resign voluntarily, then new ones should be appointed by a team that is composed by representatives of government, religious organizations civil societies and opposition just like the current commissioners were appointed.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/25/2012 Posts: 1,826
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Swenani wrote:sitaki.kujulikana wrote:Jaina wrote:sitaki.kujulikana wrote:Ngalaka wrote:I think the basic thing here is that we need to appreciate how presidential democracy works.
Despite the political party dimension, the legislative arm does sometimes act independent and against the desire of the executive. Even in the US some Democrats in Congress do sometimes vote against bills he supports.
I don’t hold brief for Jubilee but to opine that they are insincere for requiring that the IEBC matter be referred to either parliament or the courts is to miss the point.
For starters those are two options. Secondly it is never a given that once you refer a matter to parliament you must get your way, otherwise even theoretically legislators are supposed to debate and cast their votes in the interest of their constituents FIRST, and probably party SECOND.
Obviously Democracy is not perfect but any other known alternative is worse.
There are no easy options, you take your matter to Parliament and hope for the best as you lobby your best. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose.
I never heard Uhuru assure Cord that if they used the parliament route they will DEFINITELY have their way, but it is the civilised route to take in a democracy. The alternative is chaos.
A leader should be able to build consensus, if you can not do that how on earth will you rule. Consensus with who?. RAO?. 1. IEBC is not the problem, because if it was even if Isaak Hassan and team are replaced, the "forest" will still be the same with the same "monkeys" 2. RAO doesnt care about the country, he cares about himself. If his personal interests are not met, he will create chaos.And Kalonzo once said " Raila Thrives on Chaos" 3. RAO wants to be in Govt. The "Nusu Mkate" version come rain or sunshine. Today they are saying - No to IEBC, What do they want in its place? FBI? Tomorrow they will say - No to Courts Next day they will say - Occupy Statehouse The uprisings that happened in Egypt, Libya, Syria have not made those countries great, they made them many times worse. The government should use all means necessary to stop the " OCCUPY IEBC" NONSENSE I meant the 4 principles, if they really want to be in leadership, they need to learn how to build consensus, if even after putting together all their intellect they can't convince a few tna or urp members to support their cause then I don't see how they can rule the country Can we also argue that Uhuru and/or Jubilee govt has failed to build consensus on the IEBC issue and therefore failed in leadership? I think on the IEBC issue, Uhuru sounds as if he has no issue with them, from past event when the president has an issue he seems to push parliament to either change some laws or get them to act in some way, a good example being the ig thing. for the current scenario I think the 4 principles have shown a lack of skills when it comes to lobbying or building consensus.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 2/3/2012 Posts: 1,317
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Liv wrote:My Hypothesis:
This is what CORD wants to put in place ..... That the government and opposition nominates the IEBC commissioners on 50:50 basis directly. You can expect to have that IEBC announcing 2 sets of results in 2017.....each with a different presidential election winner like it happened in Côte Dvoire. And that may as well be the end of Kenya as we know it.
Very interesting observation you make. RAO openly demanded 50:50 in his interview with Yvonne Okwara. Again, very interesting observation.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/3/2008 Posts: 4,058 Location: Gwitu
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If Uhuru had raised concerns about IEBC,Cord would be saying that he wants to kill constitutional bodies so that he can fill them with his preffered team. The outcry about the threat to Katiba would beyond the noise pollution limits Truth forever on the scaffold
Wrong forever on the throne
(James Russell Rowell)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/10/2008 Posts: 9,131 Location: Kanjo
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Jaina wrote:sitaki.kujulikana wrote:Ngalaka wrote:I think the basic thing here is that we need to appreciate how presidential democracy works.
Despite the political party dimension, the legislative arm does sometimes act independent and against the desire of the executive. Even in the US some Democrats in Congress do sometimes vote against bills he supports.
I don’t hold brief for Jubilee but to opine that they are insincere for requiring that the IEBC matter be referred to either parliament or the courts is to miss the point.
For starters those are two options. Secondly it is never a given that once you refer a matter to parliament you must get your way, otherwise even theoretically legislators are supposed to debate and cast their votes in the interest of their constituents FIRST, and probably party SECOND.
Obviously Democracy is not perfect but any other known alternative is worse.
There are no easy options, you take your matter to Parliament and hope for the best as you lobby your best. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose.
I never heard Uhuru assure Cord that if they used the parliament route they will DEFINITELY have their way, but it is the civilised route to take in a democracy. The alternative is chaos.
A leader should be able to build consensus, if you can not do that how on earth will you rule. Consensus with who?. RAO?. 1. IEBC is not the problem, because if it was even if Isaak Hassan and team are replaced, the "forest" will still be the same with the same "monkeys" 2. RAO doesnt care about the country, he cares about himself. If his personal interests are not met, he will create chaos.And Kalonzo once said " Raila Thrives on Chaos" 3. RAO wants to be in Govt. The "Nusu Mkate" version come rain or sunshine. Today they are saying - No to IEBC, What do they want in its place? FBI? Tomorrow they will say - No to Courts Next day they will say - Occupy Statehouse The uprisings that happened in Egypt, Libya, Syria have not made those countries great, they made them many times worse. The government should use all means necessary to stop the " OCCUPY IEBC" NONSENSE Yes it will be crushed. We should have learnt from 1982 and 2007/08, lakini UK is not Kibaki, Bupamba will live to regret. i.am.back!!!!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/10/2008 Posts: 9,131 Location: Kanjo
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kollabo wrote:Liv wrote:My Hypothesis:
This is what CORD wants to put in place ..... That the government and opposition nominates the IEBC commissioners on 50:50 basis directly. You can expect to have that IEBC announcing 2 sets of results in 2017.....each with a different presidential election winner like it happened in Côte Dvoire. And that may as well be the end of Kenya as we know it.
Very interesting observation you make. RAO openly demanded 50:50 in his interview with Yvonne Okwara. Again, very interesting observation. 50:50 kitu gani, RAO had 40% votes, UKRUTO 51%, cant have it 50:50, just look at senate and Parliament. The constitutional coup must be crushed with all means necessary. i.am.back!!!!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/10/2008 Posts: 9,131 Location: Kanjo
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Liv wrote:My Hypothesis:
If CORD does not follow the constitutional means to change the IEBC commissioners, too bad no changes will take place. Demonstrations and violence will not move the Duo..... These 2 guys have been to hell and back (ICC) ....demonstrations and violence means nothing, Police will take care of that as part of security matters, the Duo are different from Kibaki and I think they will not bend backward to accommodate Rao.
Today the headlines in the western capitals are negative about Kenya but this will not change anything. Some ordinary Kenyans and business & other leaders will be worried about this negativity and violence ... But unless the changes are introduced through Parliament, nothing will change. These Western journalists will continue to write whatever they want until they get tired.
If Parliament does not come up with a new law regarding IEBC, we will go to the 2017 with the current IEBC commissioners, nothing will change. If CORD boycotts the election so be it, the country will still go on with elections and have a government in place after that. Besides every county will have a governor and CORD can only boycott National elections.
If the duo give in and allow dialogue with CORD that will be the beginning of real chaos. This country cannot afford to have a divided IEBC where commissioners are more loyal to their parties than the country.... Unless we are ready to have the country divided or another nusu mkate government where the constitution will have to be changed in a crisis. This is what CORD wants to put in place ..... That the government and opposition nominates the IEBC commissioners on 50:50 basis directly. You can expect to have that IEBC announcing 2 sets of results in 2017.....each with a different presidential election winner like it happened in Côte Dvoire. And that may as well be the end of Kenya as we know it.
We would rather have the current demonstrations and violence continue every week until 2017 if CORD cannot follow the constitutional means of changing IEBC. Any changes on IEBC must be taken through parliament, and they can only occur if IEBC commissioners decide to resign or parliament changes the law and does away with the current commissioners. If the IEBC commissioners resign voluntarily, then new ones should be appointed by a team that is composed by representatives of government, religious organizations civil societies and opposition just like the current commissioners were appointed.
Yes they can boycott the presidential, i can tell you the rest will be hotly contested. infact the demos in Kakamega last monday were all about the governorship. i.am.back!!!!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/25/2012 Posts: 1,826
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harrydre wrote:Liv wrote:My Hypothesis:
If CORD does not follow the constitutional means to change the IEBC commissioners, too bad no changes will take place. Demonstrations and violence will not move the Duo..... These 2 guys have been to hell and back (ICC) ....demonstrations and violence means nothing, Police will take care of that as part of security matters, the Duo are different from Kibaki and I think they will not bend backward to accommodate Rao.
Today the headlines in the western capitals are negative about Kenya but this will not change anything. Some ordinary Kenyans and business & other leaders will be worried about this negativity and violence ... But unless the changes are introduced through Parliament, nothing will change. These Western journalists will continue to write whatever they want until they get tired.
If Parliament does not come up with a new law regarding IEBC, we will go to the 2017 with the current IEBC commissioners, nothing will change. If CORD boycotts the election so be it, the country will still go on with elections and have a government in place after that. Besides every county will have a governor and CORD can only boycott National elections.
If the duo give in and allow dialogue with CORD that will be the beginning of real chaos. This country cannot afford to have a divided IEBC where commissioners are more loyal to their parties than the country.... Unless we are ready to have the country divided or another nusu mkate government where the constitution will have to be changed in a crisis. This is what CORD wants to put in place ..... That the government and opposition nominates the IEBC commissioners on 50:50 basis directly. You can expect to have that IEBC announcing 2 sets of results in 2017.....each with a different presidential election winner like it happened in Côte Dvoire. And that may as well be the end of Kenya as we know it.
We would rather have the current demonstrations and violence continue every week until 2017 if CORD cannot follow the constitutional means of changing IEBC. Any changes on IEBC must be taken through parliament, and they can only occur if IEBC commissioners decide to resign or parliament changes the law and does away with the current commissioners. If the IEBC commissioners resign voluntarily, then new ones should be appointed by a team that is composed by representatives of government, religious organizations civil societies and opposition just like the current commissioners were appointed.
Yes they can boycott the presidential, i can tell you the rest will be hotly contested. infact the demos in Kakamega last monday were all about the governorship. They should have pushed to have presidential elections separated from the others, otherwise try tell an mp or mca to boycott a poll knowing that someone else is eyeing the same seat, they will blow the whistles but if it gets hapo the 4 principles will be alone.
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