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Cord attempts to storm IEBC offices
masukuma
#91 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 1:45:51 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
I think most people here fail to see the chicken gate scandal thing as a 4 stage crime and only 2 stages have been judicially determined!

Section 1: SAID COMMISSIONERS AND STAFF TO AGENT ASKING FOR MONEY <-- NO JUDICIAL PROCESS HAS DETERMINED THIS TO BE FACTUAL OR TRUE. NO INVESTIGATION HAS EVEN BEEN CONCLUDED SINCE EACC IS LOOKING INTO THIS
Section 2: AGENT TO S&O ASKING FOR MONEY <-- A JUDICIAL PROCESS HAS DETERMINED THIS TO BE TRUE
Section 3: S&O SENDING MONEY TO AGENT <-- A JUDICIAL PROCESS HAS DETERMINED THIS TO BE
Section 4: AGENT SENDING MONEY TO SAID COMMISSIONERS <-- NO JUDICIAL PROCESS HAS DETERMINED THIS TO BE FACTUAL OR TRUE. NO INVESTIGATION HAS EVEN BEEN CONCLUDED SINCE EACC IS LOOKING INTO THIS

I don't think i can explain it any further! The claim that "their UK counterparts are in jail" is incorrect coz there was no dealing between THE ACCUSED IN KENYA and THE GUYS IN PRISON.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
limanika
#92 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 1:47:30 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
Risasi Sufuri wrote:
kollabo wrote:
madollar wrote:
limanika wrote:
One thing about Rao, there r things he starts and doesn't give in till bitter end. Others he starts and falters mid way. This looks like the former case. Jubilee may give the matter time to see what plays out, but I think they're doomed if they don't give in to some demands some way, damned if they give in. Wisdom of mo1 and baks combined needed here

It will be a big score for CORD if IEBC is disbanded the propaganda that will come with it wacha tu i dont see jubilee giving them that milage.Moi and Kibaki never gave in to the opposition their were other forces diplomats can be very persuasive.CORD are about to learn the hardway its not the 90s


Applause Applause Applause Powerful reminder right there.



I think the team should be disbanded. It was purely a Babu/Baba jimmy team. I don't know why dynamic duo agreed on this arrangement, now or even in the last election.

However, lawful means should be used. Individuals should not take us back to the old days. We have a new katiba which was read to us by Babu, if we were to trash the same it would be a setting a wrong precedent.


How to disband lawfully is the question coz even pork/parliament don't have powers. The protests worked in 90s coz katiba was silent on most issues to do with multi party- thats why moi could give in and disband or form commissions when matters became too hot. Option rao seems to have settled for is frustrate iebc until they quit. Someone pliz retrieve mollases story/maize scandal from the shelf
limanika
#93 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 1:49:56 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032

Del
keraka
#94 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 3:40:39 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/24/2010
Posts: 637
Location: Nairobi
masukuma wrote:
keraka wrote:
IEBC as currently constituted is a sham of a morally right and independent umpire for the sake of a credible election.A good number of a cross section of kenyans are well aware of this and that narrative being driven around like its all about Railla is cheap.

Between as we yap about due process in removing those corrupt skunks their chicken giver counterparts in UK are in jail through a judicial process with corresponding evidence passed to kenyan authorities n you dare talk of due process.

2 Things
Firstly, I come from a school of thought that basically says... The reason we have laws - is so that we can have a predictable way of resolving disputes! OK? We all agree that laws are made by our representatives and we all sign up for them. The law is also meant to protect individuals from others. A mob cannot just walk into my house and eject me! regardless of how justified they feel.

Secondly, the reason we have elections is so that we also find a way of "fighting" without going to war and killing each other. That is why elections are important things because in their place we have real war i.e. getting power by sheer force - Libya during Gadaffi style.

So if we are basically saying lets do this removal extra judicially - what does that mean to the rest of the law is opportunistically/discretionally applied. We have all said... "IEBC IS CORRUPT, IEBC IS THIS...IEBC IS THAT" based on nothing other than claims on an email by a 3rd party on 1-2 MEMBERS OF THE WHOLE COMMISSION! Nothing else!! Has there been a judicial process to determine whether the said claim is correct/factual or not - THERE HAS BEEN NONE!
What is now happening is exactly what Raila called for in 2007... "Mass Action" when he and his team determined for themselves that the process is not fair to them - we shall take up the law into our own hands and bully these people into submission. if that works - WTF do we have the law for? if a Mob can just have their way?
if we cannot follow the law - why follow elections? if the strongest/loudest wins - why have the facade of having an election?


OK.I give in but on this atleast across section of the political and religious divide agrees that we can do better.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Swenani
#95 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 3:45:31 PM
Rank: User

Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
Masukuma you've been banned from contributing on this IEBC manenos, you have a conflict of interest-You're among the chicken eaters ama wewe ulikula feathers?
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
masukuma
#96 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 5:19:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
I get why the religious side wants them out (I suspect more voices will surface), whether IEBC COMMISSIONERS did those things they were alleged to have done or not it is important to realise that if one side of the country decides that the COMMISSIONERS are unsuitable to hold office - they deserve to be heard. If the future state of our nation is premised on whether we have the current crop of commissioners deciding the next election - then we should not! Not because they stole or ate. I keep on asking people here - WHO ATE? whose name appeared in an Email? How many commissioners are on the commission? But since the water has been muddied and CORD has refused to listen to reason (they are seeing this commission as their biggest problem) and want them out or else we have an ungovernable country - they need to use the channels provided. i.e. Convince the Jubilee side and form a tribunal - if the tribunal does not find anything wrong they can always say that for sanity they can be sent home honourably - payment for the rest of their expected period of serving and blah blah blah. You need to know that these are also people... just like you! they are providing for families e.t.c. they have reputations e.t.c. and in the case where we just want them out and parliament recognizes this - why not have them do a mutunga with proper benefits and reputation intact?
When it comes to election - PERCEPTIONS TRUMP FACTS! this is why many people here (including Jubilee people) believe Raila beat Kibaki in 2007.... the facts are different! but since the brain is a creature of repetition - it cannot resist a story being told over and over!! but facts on their own don't matter in elections - they matter to courts but not to the populace.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Obi 1 Kanobi
#97 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 5:37:20 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
masukuma wrote:
I get why the religious side wants them out (I suspect more voices will surface), whether IEBC COMMISSIONERS did those things they were alleged to have done or not it is important to realise that if one side of the country decides that the COMMISSIONERS are unsuitable to hold office - they deserve to be heard. If the future state of our nation is premised on whether we have the current crop of commissioners deciding the next election - then we should not! Not because they stole or ate. I keep on asking people here - WHO ATE? whose name appeared in an Email? How many commissioners are on the commission? But since the water has been muddied and CORD has refused to listen to reason (they are seeing this commission as their biggest problem) and want them out or else we have an ungovernable country - they need to use the channels provided. i.e. Convince the Jubilee side and form a tribunal - if the tribunal does not find anything wrong they can always say that for sanity they can be sent home honourably - payment for the rest of their expected period of serving and blah blah blah. You need to know that these are also people... just like you! they are providing for families e.t.c. they have reputations e.t.c. and in the case where we just want them out and parliament recognizes this - why not have them do a mutunga with proper benefits and reputation intact?
When it comes to election - PERCEPTIONS TRUMP FACTS! this is why many people here (including Jubilee people) believe Raila beat Kibaki in 2007.... the facts are different! but since the brain is a creature of repetition - it cannot resist a story being told over and over!! but facts on their own don't matter in elections - they matter to courts but not to the populace.

@Masukuma

You are really on this thing. How about the simple argument that by the mere fact that the commissioners have been linked to actual (not alleged) bribery, they should resign. As they refuse to resign, applying public pressure (through demos) should make them resign.

That the govt refuses to push this agenda is a clear indication that if CORD were to pursue the legal channels, they would not succeed. Please re-visit your comment with regards to the Ugandan prof. who stripped naked to protest. How did you justify her actions, why is it different to CORD's actions when they automatically know that legal channels will not see them achieve their objectives unless Jubilee which is silent on the matter sides with them.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
murchr
#98 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 5:37:32 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Risasi Sufuri wrote:
kollabo wrote:
madollar wrote:
limanika wrote:
One thing about Rao, there r things he starts and doesn't give in till bitter end. Others he starts and falters mid way. This looks like the former case. Jubilee may give the matter time to see what plays out, but I think they're doomed if they don't give in to some demands some way, damned if they give in. Wisdom of mo1 and baks combined needed here

It will be a big score for CORD if IEBC is disbanded the propaganda that will come with it wacha tu i dont see jubilee giving them that milage.Moi and Kibaki never gave in to the opposition their were other forces diplomats can be very persuasive.CORD are about to learn the hardway its not the 90s


Applause Applause Applause Powerful reminder right there.



I think the team should be disbanded. It was purely a Babu/Baba jimmy team. I don't know why dynamic duo agreed on this arrangement, now or even in the last election.

However, lawful means should be used. Individuals should not take us back to the old days. We have a new katiba which was read to us by Babu, if we were to trash the same it would be a setting a wrong precedent.



You think so but the only route to disband them is by following the laid out procedure laid out in the constitution. Hii ingine ni side shows. These politicians know Kenyans are stupid and the only way they can get into the limelight is by causing chaos.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
masukuma
#99 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 5:40:39 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
remember my definition of Elections? they are WARS.... so saying why can we not become like this (pointing to a time the country was one like during a time we won internationally) is stupid... Elections are divisive by nature... Having a whole country united during elections is stupid..... sorry impossible. It's like asking Why can't we all fight on one side?
And since just like Wars Elections have loses and pain only emotional coz defeat is emotional (hebu uliza waJaluo juu ya hii story ya kushindwa kila siku), you need to lure them back to the next election and they need to feel that they lost because they were beaten in war and not that the system was rigged against them. So removing scapegoats is always healthy for that competitive.

On a totally unrelated matter (or maybe it's related - you judge)
I have a theory that countries that have proper sports - competitive sports especially at the community level - fight less. AFC playing against say GOR Mahia becomes a small war and thus big costly wars are not fought. Perhaps the gorier the war the better. Perhaps this was the reason Ancient Rome had those games. Perhaps the reason the Greeks had Olympic games - to peacefully fight amongst themselves and "sublimate" the human aggression. Elections should also do that for us.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
masukuma
#100 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 5:55:34 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:

@Masukuma

You are really on this thing. How about the simple argument that by the mere fact that the commissioners have been linked to actual (not alleged) bribery, they should resign. As they refuse to resign, applying public pressure (through demos) should make them resign.

That the govt refuses to push this agenda is a clear indication that if CORD were to pursue the legal channels, they would not succeed. Please re-visit your comment with regards to the Ugandan prof. who stripped naked to protest. How did you justify her actions, why is it different to CORD's actions when they automatically know that legal channels will not see them achieve their objectives unless Jubilee which is silent on the matter sides with them.



Remember I said the law is supposed to do 2 things - demonstrate fairness and also protect the individual

Let's talk about DEMONSTRATION OF FAIRNESS
I think I have partially addressed your comment (unknowingly in a post that was written before this) especially on the "channels" - I get you! this is "war" and "perceptions trump facts" in the eyes of the public. I GET IT! if we don't allow CORD to have their ways (or make the legal channels look like the channels of the oppressors) they will not go there. Same as elections - if Elections are thought as being "jubilee" events (i.e. IEBC is JEBC ) - CORD and their people will follow alternative channels ("away from the oppressors"). That is one side of the equation.

There is a second part of the equation is PROTECTION OF THE INDIVIDUAL
IEBC is made up of people... just like you and I! How are their rights protected in this equation? Anyone who knows anything about the modern way of looking at law tells you that the rights of the individuals are propergated outwards to the society and so things like "the life of one for the sake of many will" will not fly! Will you agree to die for Kenya? of course not! My arguement is - let CORD/JUBILEE find a channel that also protects the rights of the individuals. These are people with families! Someone once told me they saw Oswago walking around in a cap and shades.... Coz if you fall out of grace in a major way - you lose your reputation.

I think i have proposed a way to ensure that these two are married! We need people who worked at the commission to walk with their heads high and also have CORD feel that this "war" can be won and is worth engaging in. This involves Jubilee and CORD working together to send them home Mutunga style home with benefits e.t.c. They should not be seen to have been hounded out of office by shame. I think a middle ground can be found.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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