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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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Wakanyugi wrote:limanika wrote:tycho wrote:limanika wrote:tycho wrote:limanika wrote:There's space time and then there's matter, that's the natural. Then there's the supernatural. That's all. I'm thinking about all these ideas and please allow me to ask: 1. How do you know this statement is true? 2. Why is it important for you to be having belief in these assertions? Look within. What does your conscience tell you about these things. If it were the question of introspection then you can be assured that I'm doing it. My questions however are directed at the results of your own introspection. The beauty is that you'll find the truth by yourself when you search truthfully and genuinely - through interaction with environment as well as other beings. And then everyone is given the gift of free will, to choose without coercion. Man is really a masterpiece, a very enviable creature in all of creation. But his heart is very deceptive. I have found the first statement to be true in my experience. Every important question I had, I have found an answer if I genuinely sought for one. Sometimes the answers come in very strange ways. As for the heart being deceptive, my experience has been just the opposite. The things I have felt through 'the heart' have turned out to be more true than those I found through reason or sometimes even observation. Looking back on the big mistakes of my life I always find this statement hanging like permanent accusation 'I knew this was a bad idea.' I most often get into trouble when I ignore my heart in favor of my head. For me, everyone has a sense of right/wrong, what we call conscience, put right there by the Master designer. But that people choose to do wrong when they know what is right and should have done in the stead is the very reason 'human heart is full of deceit'. Deceit in this case meaning trying to justify / cheat oneself/others that the wrong act is justified for one reason or other, when your conscience is clearly 'shouting' the contrary
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/10/2008 Posts: 9,131 Location: Kanjo
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All these guys who die and come back describe traveling through space... i.am.back!!!!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:limanika wrote:There's space time and then there's matter, that's the natural. Then there's the supernatural. That's all. I'm thinking about all these ideas and please allow me to ask: 1. How do you know this statement is true? 2. Why is it important for you to be having belief in these assertions? Tycho: allow me to give my take on these questions, base on the earlier point about observer dependent reality: If we accept that everyone interprets reality in their own unique way, then it would follow that any interaction between us is an effort to seek areas of observation overlap, a consensus estimate of more than one observation, reducing them to something we can agree on. Without this, communication, or even existence in a common space/time frame would be impossible. It is likely that if there was nothing we could agree on, you and I would be practically invisible to each other. But, ultimately your truth remains yours and mine remains mine, even after the overlap. It is therefore possible for us to disagree and still be both correct. In fact it is likely that this is what happens most of the time. As for why all this is important, I can only answer this with the same question posed about mountains: why do people climb mountains? Ans. because they are there. Owning a body, a brain, the senses, intuition...the magnificent tools we have, and not using them to the ultimate is like buying a Ferrari and then driving it at 5Km per hour. Nothing wrong with it, but that is not what Ferrari's are meant for. Your reality, based on observation, or my reality, for that matter is not necessarily absolute. Our perception of reality is based on gift of the 'senses'. Hence the gift giver decides what you perceive. The 'gift' giver changes the 'senses' and voila.. you're in a different reality altogether
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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someone should asking him... in his minds eye - how old was he? was he as he is now? younger? older? is the "body" that he had uniform? All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:someone should asking him... in his minds eye - how old was he? was he as he is now? younger? older? is the "body" that he had uniform? @Masukuma, most of this issues are not only mystified but made bones of contention while actually they are neither mysterious nor causes for conflict. Taking LSD can cause a mystical experience, but scientists are now getting to understand how the brain works at such moments...(just an example). Finally, belief will never be uniform across a community or society. Minds develop at different rates and using different metaphors across time. So how to judge this pastor for example? By considering his overall experience and the peculiarity of his existence and adjusting it to your own-and or vice versa.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:limanika wrote:There's space time and then there's matter, that's the natural. Then there's the supernatural. That's all. I'm thinking about all these ideas and please allow me to ask: 1. How do you know this statement is true? 2. Why is it important for you to be having belief in these assertions? Tycho: allow me to give my take on these questions, base on the earlier point about observer dependent reality: If we accept that everyone interprets reality in their own unique way, then it would follow that any interaction between us is an effort to seek areas of observation overlap, a consensus estimate of more than one observation, reducing them to something we can agree on. Without this, communication, or even existence in a common space/time frame would be impossible. It is likely that if there was nothing we could agree on, you and I would be practically invisible to each other. But, ultimately your truth remains yours and mine remains mine, even after the overlap. It is therefore possible for us to disagree and still be both correct. In fact it is likely that this is what happens most of the time. As for why all this is important, I can only answer this with the same question posed about mountains: why do people climb mountains? Ans. because they are there. Owning a body, a brain, the senses, intuition...the magnificent tools we have, and not using them to the ultimate is like buying a Ferrari and then driving it at 5Km per hour. Nothing wrong with it, but that is not what Ferrari's are meant for. I agree with you on the question of overlap and our quest for it and even the validity of various truths. Where we differ is why such activity is important. To put it into perspective, this activity is called philosophizing, and is it true that one will philosophize simply because he/she can? Humans philosophize because they must!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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I once someone once ask... so if I lost a hand and went to heaven - will the new body have the hand? the answer was YES. So if someone had an intervention - like a nose job done and he loved it! what would happen? or even if someone had breast implants - will they go back to the small/big ones you had? Will Rooney keep his hair? What if i had gold teeth and liked them? All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,328 Location: Masada
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masukuma wrote:I once someone once ask... so if I lost a hand and went to heaven - will the new body have the hand? the answer was YES.
So if someone had an intervention - like a nose job done and he loved it! what would happen? or even if someone had breast implants - will they go back to the small/big ones you had? Will Rooney keep his hair? What if i had gold teeth and liked them? Hizo fikira zako zote ni vanity! Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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Impunity wrote:masukuma wrote:I once someone once ask... so if I lost a hand and went to heaven - will the new body have the hand? the answer was YES.
So if someone had an intervention - like a nose job done and he loved it! what would happen? or even if someone had breast implants - will they go back to the small/big ones you had? Will Rooney keep his hair? What if i had gold teeth and liked them? Hizo fikira zako zote ni vanity! boss.... kama hujui jibu... lenga swali ama useme "sijui". there is no shame! really! no shame at all ni saying you don't know. it's not the only thing you don't know! by the way why do we demean, trivialise and belittle the only vessel we know for ourselves? we belittle it in such a way that we seem to see it as an enemy within or at best a necessary evil that has to accompany us. unknowingly we despise the one thing you have a long term commitment to! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:Impunity wrote:masukuma wrote:I once someone once ask... so if I lost a hand and went to heaven - will the new body have the hand? the answer was YES.
So if someone had an intervention - like a nose job done and he loved it! what would happen? or even if someone had breast implants - will they go back to the small/big ones you had? Will Rooney keep his hair? What if i had gold teeth and liked them? Hizo fikira zako zote ni vanity! boss.... kama hujui jibu... lenga swali ama useme "sijui". there is no shame! really! no shame at all ni saying you don't know. it's not the only thing you don't know! by the way why do we demean, trivialise and belittle the only vessel we know for ourselves? we belittle it in such a way that we seem to see it as an enemy within or at best a necessary evil that has to accompany us. unknowingly we despise the one thing you have a long term commitment to! Commitment to the body is a delusion. When one sees the delusion then he gets to heaven. Even with one hand.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:masukuma wrote:Impunity wrote:masukuma wrote:I once someone once ask... so if I lost a hand and went to heaven - will the new body have the hand? the answer was YES.
So if someone had an intervention - like a nose job done and he loved it! what would happen? or even if someone had breast implants - will they go back to the small/big ones you had? Will Rooney keep his hair? What if i had gold teeth and liked them? Hizo fikira zako zote ni vanity! boss.... kama hujui jibu... lenga swali ama useme "sijui". there is no shame! really! no shame at all ni saying you don't know. it's not the only thing you don't know! by the way why do we demean, trivialise and belittle the only vessel we know for ourselves? we belittle it in such a way that we seem to see it as an enemy within or at best a necessary evil that has to accompany us. unknowingly we despise the one thing you have a long term commitment to! Commitment to the body is a delusion. When one sees the delusion then he gets to heaven. Even with one hand. interestingly enough it's parts of our bodies that tell us this garbage and create these delusions so that they can grasp, accept and "place a finger" on meaning in a random chaotic universe devoid of any purpose. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:masukuma wrote:Impunity wrote:masukuma wrote:I once someone once ask... so if I lost a hand and went to heaven - will the new body have the hand? the answer was YES.
So if someone had an intervention - like a nose job done and he loved it! what would happen? or even if someone had breast implants - will they go back to the small/big ones you had? Will Rooney keep his hair? What if i had gold teeth and liked them? Hizo fikira zako zote ni vanity! boss.... kama hujui jibu... lenga swali ama useme "sijui". there is no shame! really! no shame at all ni saying you don't know. it's not the only thing you don't know! by the way why do we demean, trivialise and belittle the only vessel we know for ourselves? we belittle it in such a way that we seem to see it as an enemy within or at best a necessary evil that has to accompany us. unknowingly we despise the one thing you have a long term commitment to! Commitment to the body is a delusion. When one sees the delusion then he gets to heaven. Even with one hand. interestingly enough it's parts of our bodies that tell us this garbage and create these delusions so that they can grasp, accept and "place a finger" on meaning in a random chaotic universe devoid of any purpose. The universe may be devoid of purpose, and yes we rely on the body to experience reality. But relations and how they're formed are beyond the body.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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tycho wrote:masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:masukuma wrote:Impunity wrote:masukuma wrote:I once someone once ask... so if I lost a hand and went to heaven - will the new body have the hand? the answer was YES.
So if someone had an intervention - like a nose job done and he loved it! what would happen? or even if someone had breast implants - will they go back to the small/big ones you had? Will Rooney keep his hair? What if i had gold teeth and liked them? Hizo fikira zako zote ni vanity! boss.... kama hujui jibu... lenga swali ama useme "sijui". there is no shame! really! no shame at all ni saying you don't know. it's not the only thing you don't know! by the way why do we demean, trivialise and belittle the only vessel we know for ourselves? we belittle it in such a way that we seem to see it as an enemy within or at best a necessary evil that has to accompany us. unknowingly we despise the one thing you have a long term commitment to! Commitment to the body is a delusion. When one sees the delusion then he gets to heaven. Even with one hand. interestingly enough it's parts of our bodies that tell us this garbage and create these delusions so that they can grasp, accept and "place a finger" on meaning in a random chaotic universe devoid of any purpose. The universe may be devoid of purpose, and yes we rely on the body to experience reality. But relations and how they're formed are beyond the body. Does man have any locus stadi to argue 'universe is devoid of purpose '. I think he doesn't have. Only the creator knows the purpose for which everything was created and how everything fits in the jig saw puzzle. For instance, remove the sun, moon, some of the planet's in solar system and life will end on earth. Who knows the entire role played by all other planetary bodies out there in keeping gravitation and solar system intact?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:limanika wrote:There's space time and then there's matter, that's the natural. Then there's the supernatural. That's all. I'm thinking about all these ideas and please allow me to ask: 1. How do you know this statement is true? 2. Why is it important for you to be having belief in these assertions? Tycho: allow me to give my take on these questions, base on the earlier point about observer dependent reality: If we accept that everyone interprets reality in their own unique way, then it would follow that any interaction between us is an effort to seek areas of observation overlap, a consensus estimate of more than one observation, reducing them to something we can agree on. Without this, communication, or even existence in a common space/time frame would be impossible. It is likely that if there was nothing we could agree on, you and I would be practically invisible to each other. But, ultimately your truth remains yours and mine remains mine, even after the overlap. It is therefore possible for us to disagree and still be both correct. In fact it is likely that this is what happens most of the time. As for why all this is important, I can only answer this with the same question posed about mountains: why do people climb mountains? Ans. because they are there. Owning a body, a brain, the senses, intuition...the magnificent tools we have, and not using them to the ultimate is like buying a Ferrari and then driving it at 5Km per hour. Nothing wrong with it, but that is not what Ferrari's are meant for. I agree with you on the question of overlap and our quest for it and even the validity of various truths. Where we differ is why such activity is important. To put it into perspective, this activity is called philosophizing, and is it true that one will philosophize simply because he/she can? Humans philosophize because they must! I don't see where we disagree Tycho. We have the tools to philosophize, so we do. Some more than others of course. My pet peeve is about those who barely use those wonderful tools and allow all sorts of religious charlatans and politicians to do the philosophizing for them. But that is just me. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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limanika wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:limanika wrote:There's space time and then there's matter, that's the natural. Then there's the supernatural. That's all. I'm thinking about all these ideas and please allow me to ask: 1. How do you know this statement is true? 2. Why is it important for you to be having belief in these assertions? Tycho: allow me to give my take on these questions, base on the earlier point about observer dependent reality: If we accept that everyone interprets reality in their own unique way, then it would follow that any interaction between us is an effort to seek areas of observation overlap, a consensus estimate of more than one observation, reducing them to something we can agree on. Without this, communication, or even existence in a common space/time frame would be impossible. It is likely that if there was nothing we could agree on, you and I would be practically invisible to each other. But, ultimately your truth remains yours and mine remains mine, even after the overlap. It is therefore possible for us to disagree and still be both correct. In fact it is likely that this is what happens most of the time. As for why all this is important, I can only answer this with the same question posed about mountains: why do people climb mountains? Ans. because they are there. Owning a body, a brain, the senses, intuition...the magnificent tools we have, and not using them to the ultimate is like buying a Ferrari and then driving it at 5Km per hour. Nothing wrong with it, but that is not what Ferrari's are meant for. Your reality, based on observation, or my reality, for that matter is not necessarily absolute. Our perception of reality is based on gift of the 'senses'. Hence the gift giver decides what you perceive. The 'gift' giver changes the 'senses' and voila.. you're in a different reality altogether "The senses are wonderful liars" I am misquoting a certain writer here, but just to make a point. For one, how many senses do you have? 5? Let me take just 1, the sense of 'touch'. Where you sit, your butt is in contact with a chair. Your brain tells you both the butt and the chair are solid. You can even confirm this by looking through your eyes. Yet we know that this 'solidness' is an illusion. At molecular, atomic and sub atomic levels, everything is in flux. How trustworthy then is the gift of the senses? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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tycho wrote:masukuma wrote:Impunity wrote:[quote=masukuma]I once someone once ask... so if I lost a hand and went to heaven - will the new body have the hand? the answer was YES.
So if someone had an intervention - like a nose job done and he loved it! what would happen? or even if someone had breast implants - will they go back to the small/big ones you had? Will Rooney keep his hair? What if i had gold teeth and liked them? Hizo fikira zako zote ni vanity! boss.... kama hujui jibu... lenga swali ama useme "sijui". there is no shame! really! no shame at all ni saying you don't know. it's not the only thing you don't know! by the way why do we demean, trivialise and belittle the only vessel we know for ourselves? we belittle it in such a way that we seem to see it as an enemy within or at best a necessary evil that has to accompany us. unknowingly we despise the one thing you have a long term commitment to! The body is a wonderful vessel, this I agree with you. But it has major limitations: for instance it is optimized for operating on a small part of the earth only (mostly the surface). It can not take us to space or even to the stars, not even to heaven if the Bible is to be believed. But, by far, the biggest problem is our over-identification with this vessel. We are NOT our bodies."The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:
We are NOT our bodies.
the most interesting thing about the brain is that it believes it's external to the body... it's really quite something special! our brains create the illusion of an non existent entity looking at the body. my friend... THAT IS THE BRAIN AT WORK... a fantastic part of your body... the brain is completely unaware of it'self All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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Wakanyugi wrote:limanika wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:limanika wrote:There's space time and then there's matter, that's the natural. Then there's the supernatural. That's all. I'm thinking about all these ideas and please allow me to ask: 1. How do you know this statement is true? 2. Why is it important for you to be having belief in these assertions? Tycho: allow me to give my take on these questions, base on the earlier point about observer dependent reality: If we accept that everyone interprets reality in their own unique way, then it would follow that any interaction between us is an effort to seek areas of observation overlap, a consensus estimate of more than one observation, reducing them to something we can agree on. Without this, communication, or even existence in a common space/time frame would be impossible. It is likely that if there was nothing we could agree on, you and I would be practically invisible to each other. But, ultimately your truth remains yours and mine remains mine, even after the overlap. It is therefore possible for us to disagree and still be both correct. In fact it is likely that this is what happens most of the time. As for why all this is important, I can only answer this with the same question posed about mountains: why do people climb mountains? Ans. because they are there. Owning a body, a brain, the senses, intuition...the magnificent tools we have, and not using them to the ultimate is like buying a Ferrari and then driving it at 5Km per hour. Nothing wrong with it, but that is not what Ferrari's are meant for. Your reality, based on observation, or my reality, for that matter is not necessarily absolute. Our perception of reality is based on gift of the 'senses'. Hence the gift giver decides what you perceive. The 'gift' giver changes the 'senses' and voila.. you're in a different reality altogether "The senses are wonderful liars" I am misquoting a certain writer here, but just to make a point. For one, how many senses do you have? 5? Let me take just 1, the sense of 'touch'. Where you sit, your butt is in contact with a chair. Your brain tells you both the butt and the chair are solid. You can even confirm this by looking through your eyes. Yet we know that this 'solidness' is an illusion. At molecular, atomic and sub atomic levels, everything is in flux. How trustworthy then is the gift of the senses? Exactly that's the point. He that gave the senses predetermined what you can see, perceive. If you're given eyes as powerful as a microscope, you'll see things at microscopic level. And if the planetary universe mimics subatomic level of existence and vice versa, who knows, maybe in another plane of existence our observable universe including everything therein is just a mere 'solid' rock??
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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masukuma wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:
We are NOT our bodies.
the most interesting thing about the brain is that it believes it's external to the body... it's really quite something special! our brains create the illusion of an non existent entity looking at the body. my friend... THAT IS THE BRAIN AT WORK... a fantastic part of your body... the brain is completely unaware of it'self This is where we disagree. The brain aside, I fully believe that we OWN our physical bodies but our greater self extends far, far beyond the physical. This is the only way I am able to explain the many 'magical' things like telepathy, remote viewing, certain dreams and even imagination that have been part of my life experience for years. Nevertheless I would love to hear your proof for the position that the physical body is all we have. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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limanika wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:limanika wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:limanika wrote:There's space time and then there's matter, that's the natural. Then there's the supernatural. That's all. I'm thinking about all these ideas and please allow me to ask: 1. How do you know this statement is true? 2. Why is it important for you to be having belief in these assertions? Tycho: allow me to give my take on these questions, base on the earlier point about observer dependent reality: If we accept that everyone interprets reality in their own unique way, then it would follow that any interaction between us is an effort to seek areas of observation overlap, a consensus estimate of more than one observation, reducing them to something we can agree on. Without this, communication, or even existence in a common space/time frame would be impossible. It is likely that if there was nothing we could agree on, you and I would be practically invisible to each other. But, ultimately your truth remains yours and mine remains mine, even after the overlap. It is therefore possible for us to disagree and still be both correct. In fact it is likely that this is what happens most of the time. As for why all this is important, I can only answer this with the same question posed about mountains: why do people climb mountains? Ans. because they are there. Owning a body, a brain, the senses, intuition...the magnificent tools we have, and not using them to the ultimate is like buying a Ferrari and then driving it at 5Km per hour. Nothing wrong with it, but that is not what Ferrari's are meant for. Your reality, based on observation, or my reality, for that matter is not necessarily absolute. Our perception of reality is based on gift of the 'senses'. Hence the gift giver decides what you perceive. The 'gift' giver changes the 'senses' and voila.. you're in a different reality altogether "The senses are wonderful liars" I am misquoting a certain writer here, but just to make a point. For one, how many senses do you have? 5? Let me take just 1, the sense of 'touch'. Where you sit, your butt is in contact with a chair. Your brain tells you both the butt and the chair are solid. You can even confirm this by looking through your eyes. Yet we know that this 'solidness' is an illusion. At molecular, atomic and sub atomic levels, everything is in flux. How trustworthy then is the gift of the senses? Exactly that's the point. He that gave the senses predetermined what you can see, perceive. If you're given eyes as powerful as a microscope, you'll see things at microscopic level. And if the planetary universe mimics subatomic level of existence and vice versa, who knows, maybe in another plane of existence our observable universe including everything therein is just a mere 'solid' rock?? I don't know who the 'he that gave the senses' is exactly, but I think you are being unfair to him when you imply that he gave us an imperfect tool in the senses. 'He' gave us each the equivalent of a Ferrari. The problem is is we insist on driving it at less than 10 KPH. For instance, we are afraid to accept the uncertainty of illusion and relativity (even with all the evidence) clinging to a 'hard' reality that we know in our heart of hearts does not exist. We are afraid to cast away from the shore because we think the sea is hostile..... Here is another thought: "if you could perceive reality from 5 dimensions, instead of the 3 we are used to, you would, for instance, be able to see inside a locked box, or someones stomach. The inside of a box is a dimension hidden in 3D - same way as the 'up' dimension is hidden in 2D - but not in 5. Wherefore the senses, my friend? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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