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Pale blue dot
AlphDoti
#21 Posted : Tuesday, April 05, 2016 11:05:26 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
tycho wrote:
Illusion. Very subtle one at that.

@Wakanyugi ...

I agree with @tycho on this one... a good piece of imagination
masukuma
#22 Posted : Tuesday, April 05, 2016 11:46:56 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Illusion. Very subtle one at that.

@Wakanyugi ...

I agree with @tycho on this one... a good piece of imagination

everything we know originates from that small speck of the universe. everyone we know.
another image of our home from saturn taken in July 2013


this is not to signify the uselessness of our race or place but rather the fact that we really don't have many options once we screw up ourselves and this place.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
limanika
#23 Posted : Tuesday, April 05, 2016 12:11:28 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Illusion. Very subtle one at that.

@Wakanyugi ...

I agree with @tycho on this one... a good piece of imagination

Size is relative. Our view of space and time is skewed because it's based on our own definition and limited understandingof the same. If man was the size of an atom- not an impossibility since 'life started from a cell' how big would earth be??
Wakanyugi
#24 Posted : Wednesday, April 06, 2016 4:35:46 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Illusion. Very subtle one at that.

@Wakanyugi ...

I agree with @tycho on this one... a good piece of imagination



Imagination? Sure. In the same ways that the Bible, Koran and other religious tracts can be considered fiction.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#25 Posted : Wednesday, April 06, 2016 4:37:26 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
limanika wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Illusion. Very subtle one at that.

@Wakanyugi ...

I agree with @tycho on this one... a good piece of imagination

Size is relative. Our view of space and time is skewed because it's based on our own definition and limited understanding of the same. If man was the size of an atom- not an impossibility since 'life started from a cell' how big would earth be??


Exactly!
Like the 'limited' perspective of the Fleas on Planet doG.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#26 Posted : Wednesday, April 06, 2016 5:04:38 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
limanika wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Illusion. Very subtle one at that.

@Wakanyugi ...

I agree with @tycho on this one... a good piece of imagination

Size is relative. Our view of space and time is skewed because it's based on our own definition and limited understanding of the same. If man was the size of an atom- not an impossibility since 'life started from a cell' how big would earth be??


It is also skewed by our view of space/time as real. Think of this:

1. We are told the universe started as a big bang – an ‘outward’ explosion from a singularity which created the space/time framework on which matter/energy became distributed to form the Universe that we see.

2. We are also told that a black hole is an implosion of matter/energy into an infinite point (a singularity). Yet despite this implosion, the black hole retains all the information that existed before it was formed , including the space/time, matter/energy distribution that existed before– see black hole information paradox: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/...es-destroy-information/

Meaning: If we lived inside a black hole (a singularity) we would never know the difference.

Space/time is an illusion. So is matter/energy for that matter.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
masukuma
#27 Posted : Wednesday, April 06, 2016 6:31:17 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
limanika wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Illusion. Very subtle one at that.

@Wakanyugi ...

I agree with @tycho on this one... a good piece of imagination

Size is relative. Our view of space and time is skewed because it's based on our own definition and limited understanding of the same. If man was the size of an atom- not an impossibility since 'life started from a cell' how big would earth be??


It is also skewed by our view of space/time as real. Think of this:

1. We are told the universe started as a big bang – an ‘outward’ explosion from a singularity which created the space/time framework on which matter/energy became distributed to form the Universe that we see.

2. We are also told that a black hole is an implosion of matter/energy into an infinite point (a singularity). Yet despite this implosion, the black hole retains all the information that existed before it was formed , including the space/time, matter/energy distribution that existed before– see black hole information paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org...ole_information_paradox

Meaning: If we lived inside a black hole (a singularity) we would never know the difference.

Space/time is an illusion. So is matter/energy for that matter.

You are right... we can only know what we can observe and postulate based on our maths. We may be inside a black hole for all we know..... our observable universe could very well be the best illustration of what a black hole looks like. But all that is a bit far and out there. The topical discussion is not on unknowns but rather known and testable facts. This realm of known and testable things include obvious things like "tycho is a cryptic human being", "kenyatta is the president of kenya"; "we live on the surface of the 3rd planet from the sun", "it's a rather small planet orbiting a mediocre star". "humans don't really have options other than life on this planet".
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
limanika
#28 Posted : Wednesday, April 06, 2016 8:52:44 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
On pale blue dot, another way to look at the scenario is for instance consider a plane up high in the sky...it appears 1 feet long...in reality it is tens of metres long. The illusion of 1 feet is the result of our own limitations..e.g. we rely on light from the object to the eye.... and interpretation of size is affected by the distance...yet in reality, the plane is same size and doesn't lose any of its properties. So the pale blue dot is an illusion, the result of voyager's own limitations rather than the converse.
masukuma
#29 Posted : Wednesday, April 06, 2016 9:19:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
limanika wrote:
On pale blue dot, another way to look at the scenario is for instance consider a plane up high in the sky...it appears 1 feet long...in reality it is tens of metres long. The illusion of 1 feet is the result of our own limitations..e.g. we rely on light from the object to the eye.... and interpretation of size is affected by the distance...yet in reality, the plane is same size and doesn't lose any of its properties. So the pale blue dot is an illusion, the result of voyager's own limitations rather than the converse.

yes... when compared to the observer! but not in the scale of things. While the plane is larger than the observer juxtaposing it against the sky we realise that what we consider really large is actually small in the grand scale of things. if you really thought about it.

Something really interesting is that the "pale blue dot" has a surface that is 70% water and of the 30% left the global urban land was close to 3 %, the global built-up area was about 0.65 %, and the global impervious surface area was merely 0.45 %, of the word’s total land area (excluding Antarctica and Greenland) in 2010.
TAFAKARI HAYO!!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
harrydre
#30 Posted : Wednesday, April 06, 2016 9:56:32 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
Wakanyugi wrote:
limanika wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Illusion. Very subtle one at that.

@Wakanyugi ...

I agree with @tycho on this one... a good piece of imagination

Size is relative. Our view of space and time is skewed because it's based on our own definition and limited understanding of the same. If man was the size of an atom- not an impossibility since 'life started from a cell' how big would earth be??


Exactly!
Like the 'limited' perspective of the Fleas on Planet doG.


smile sounds like the story of the ants.
i.am.back!!!!
harrydre
#31 Posted : Wednesday, April 06, 2016 10:04:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
masukuma wrote:
limanika wrote:
On pale blue dot, another way to look at the scenario is for instance consider a plane up high in the sky...it appears 1 feet long...in reality it is tens of metres long. The illusion of 1 feet is the result of our own limitations..e.g. we rely on light from the object to the eye.... and interpretation of size is affected by the distance...yet in reality, the plane is same size and doesn't lose any of its properties. So the pale blue dot is an illusion, the result of voyager's own limitations rather than the converse.

yes... when compared to the observer! but not in the scale of things. While the plane is larger than the observer juxtaposing it against the sky we realise that what we consider really large is actually small in the grand scale of things. if you really thought about it.

Something really interesting is that the "pale blue dot" has a surface that is 70% water and of the 30% left the global urban land was close to 3 %, the global built-up area was about 0.65 %, and the global impervious surface area was merely 0.45 %, of the word’s total land area (excluding Antarctica and Greenland) in 2010.
TAFAKARI HAYO!!


Eish! you make us feel flea sized! I would hate to see the reaction of the rich man who chest thumps in a pub after few beers of how much wealth 'indo' he has once he learns of this!
i.am.back!!!!
masukuma
#32 Posted : Wednesday, April 06, 2016 10:15:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
harrydre wrote:
masukuma wrote:
limanika wrote:
On pale blue dot, another way to look at the scenario is for instance consider a plane up high in the sky...it appears 1 feet long...in reality it is tens of metres long. The illusion of 1 feet is the result of our own limitations..e.g. we rely on light from the object to the eye.... and interpretation of size is affected by the distance...yet in reality, the plane is same size and doesn't lose any of its properties. So the pale blue dot is an illusion, the result of voyager's own limitations rather than the converse.

yes... when compared to the observer! but not in the scale of things. While the plane is larger than the observer juxtaposing it against the sky we realise that what we consider really large is actually small in the grand scale of things. if you really thought about it.

Something really interesting is that the "pale blue dot" has a surface that is 70% water and of the 30% left the global urban land was close to 3 %, the global built-up area was about 0.65 %, and the global impervious surface area was merely 0.45 %, of the word’s total land area (excluding Antarctica and Greenland) in 2010.
TAFAKARI HAYO!!


Eish! you make us feel flea sized! I would hate to see the reaction of the rich man who chest thumps in a pub after few beers of how much wealth 'indo' he has once he learns of this!

nyinyi barabara zenu, nyumba zenu basically everything we have built that has covered the earth and is impervious to the sun is a mere 0.45% of the total land mass?..... tukiwa tumetoa Greenland and Antarctica? kweli hakuna kitu tumefanya!!

I got into this goose chase when I saw an image that said in order to power the earth with solar power all we needed to do was capture solar power in areas these big

I thought to myself... well.... why not just do it? then i realised that humans have never done anything this big ever!!!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
limanika
#33 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2016 9:40:34 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
masukuma wrote:
limanika wrote:
On pale blue dot, another way to look at the scenario is for instance consider a plane up high in the sky...it appears 1 feet long...in reality it is tens of metres long. The illusion of 1 feet is the result of our own limitations..e.g. we rely on light from the object to the eye.... and interpretation of size is affected by the distance...yet in reality, the plane is same size and doesn't lose any of its properties. So the pale blue dot is an illusion, the result of voyager's own limitations rather than the converse.

yes... when compared to the observer! but not in the scale of things. While the plane is larger than the observer juxtaposing it against the sky we realise that what we consider really large is actually small in the grand scale of things. if you really thought about it.

Something really interesting is that the "pale blue dot" has a surface that is 70% water and of the 30% left the global urban land was close to 3 %, the global built-up area was about 0.65 %, and the global impervious surface area was merely 0.45 %, of the word’s total land area (excluding Antarctica and Greenland) in 2010.
TAFAKARI HAYO!!

It is said voyager is still within solar system. Now solar system is under influence of the sun , the only star in the system. There are billons of other stars in the milky way galaxy. There are billions of galaxies in the universe, each with billions upon billions of stars...that's as far as classification goes. So your 'pale blue' dot ought not to even be visible in the map when you consider the 'greater scheme of things'
masukuma
#34 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2016 10:07:34 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
limanika wrote:
masukuma wrote:
limanika wrote:
On pale blue dot, another way to look at the scenario is for instance consider a plane up high in the sky...it appears 1 feet long...in reality it is tens of metres long. The illusion of 1 feet is the result of our own limitations..e.g. we rely on light from the object to the eye.... and interpretation of size is affected by the distance...yet in reality, the plane is same size and doesn't lose any of its properties. So the pale blue dot is an illusion, the result of voyager's own limitations rather than the converse.

yes... when compared to the observer! but not in the scale of things. While the plane is larger than the observer juxtaposing it against the sky we realise that what we consider really large is actually small in the grand scale of things. if you really thought about it.

Something really interesting is that the "pale blue dot" has a surface that is 70% water and of the 30% left the global urban land was close to 3 %, the global built-up area was about 0.65 %, and the global impervious surface area was merely 0.45 %, of the word’s total land area (excluding Antarctica and Greenland) in 2010.
TAFAKARI HAYO!!

It is said voyager is still within solar system. Now solar system is under influence of the sun , the only star in the system. There are billons of other stars in the milky way galaxy. There are billions of galaxies in the universe, each with billions upon billions of stars...that's as far as classification goes. So your 'pale blue' dot ought not to even be visible in the map when you consider the 'greater scheme of things'

That's the point really... this photo was taken in 1990... before the multiparty era. From where it is now it's impossible to see our planet. So imagine from the next star. Someone said.... if we could use the grape fruit analogy if the sun were a grape fruit then earth would be a crystal of raw sugar some 50 ft away but the nearest star would be another grape fruit 2900 miles away. I am thinking one is in Kenya and another one in south Africa.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
limanika
#35 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2016 10:50:34 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
Conclusion of the whole matter: Ecc 12:13- "Fear God and keep His commandments, For that is the whole duty of man"
Wakanyugi
#36 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2016 12:17:10 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
limanika wrote:
Conclusion of the whole matter: Ecc 12:13- "Fear God and keep His commandments, For that is the whole duty of man"


Why does God need to be feared?

Kwani what is he afraid of?

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#37 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2016 12:25:57 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
masukuma wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
limanika wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Illusion. Very subtle one at that.

@Wakanyugi ...

I agree with @tycho on this one... a good piece of imagination

Size is relative. Our view of space and time is skewed because it's based on our own definition and limited understanding of the same. If man was the size of an atom- not an impossibility since 'life started from a cell' how big would earth be??


It is also skewed by our view of space/time as real. Think of this:

1. We are told the universe started as a big bang – an ‘outward’ explosion from a singularity which created the space/time framework on which matter/energy became distributed to form the Universe that we see.

2. We are also told that a black hole is an implosion of matter/energy into an infinite point (a singularity). Yet despite this implosion, the black hole retains all the information that existed before it was formed , including the space/time, matter/energy distribution that existed before– see black hole information paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org...ole_information_paradox

Meaning: If we lived inside a black hole (a singularity) we would never know the difference.

Space/time is an illusion. So is matter/energy for that matter.

You are right... we can only know what we can observe and postulate based on our maths. We may be inside a black hole for all we know..... our observable universe could very well be the best illustration of what a black hole looks like. But all that is a bit far and out there. The topical discussion is not on unknowns but rather known and testable facts. This realm of known and testable things include obvious things like "tycho is a cryptic human being", "kenyatta is the president of kenya"; "we live on the surface of the 3rd planet from the sun", "it's a rather small planet orbiting a mediocre star". "humans don't really have options other than life on this planet".


That is the problem though. What is it we perceive when we engage in the act of observing? And since it has been shown that each individual observes reality in his own unique way, can we even claim to exist in a common Universe? If we accept that what we observe is is an approximation (a consensus reality) then on what basis could we assign one observation (the '...realm of known and testable things...') more validity than another?
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
masukuma
#38 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2016 12:37:17 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
limanika wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Illusion. Very subtle one at that.

@Wakanyugi ...

I agree with @tycho on this one... a good piece of imagination

Size is relative. Our view of space and time is skewed because it's based on our own definition and limited understanding of the same. If man was the size of an atom- not an impossibility since 'life started from a cell' how big would earth be??


It is also skewed by our view of space/time as real. Think of this:

1. We are told the universe started as a big bang – an ‘outward’ explosion from a singularity which created the space/time framework on which matter/energy became distributed to form the Universe that we see.

2. We are also told that a black hole is an implosion of matter/energy into an infinite point (a singularity). Yet despite this implosion, the black hole retains all the information that existed before it was formed , including the space/time, matter/energy distribution that existed before– see black hole information paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org...ole_information_paradox

Meaning: If we lived inside a black hole (a singularity) we would never know the difference.

Space/time is an illusion. So is matter/energy for that matter.

You are right... we can only know what we can observe and postulate based on our maths. We may be inside a black hole for all we know..... our observable universe could very well be the best illustration of what a black hole looks like. But all that is a bit far and out there. The topical discussion is not on unknowns but rather known and testable facts. This realm of known and testable things include obvious things like "tycho is a cryptic human being", "kenyatta is the president of kenya"; "we live on the surface of the 3rd planet from the sun", "it's a rather small planet orbiting a mediocre star". "humans don't really have options other than life on this planet".


That is the problem though. What is it we perceive when we engage in the act of observing? And since it has been shown that each individual observes reality in his own unique way, can we even claim to exist in a common Universe? If we accept that what we observe is is an approximation (a consensus reality) then on what basis could we assign one observation (the '...realm of known and testable things...') more validity than another?

To steal from Churchill - observations, mathematical modeling, testing and the scientific process are the least inadequate ways of understanding the universe out of all that have been tried.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Impunity
#39 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2016 5:54:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
masukuma wrote:
limanika wrote:
masukuma wrote:
limanika wrote:
On pale blue dot, another way to look at the scenario is for instance consider a plane up high in the sky...it appears 1 feet long...in reality it is tens of metres long. The illusion of 1 feet is the result of our own limitations..e.g. we rely on light from the object to the eye.... and interpretation of size is affected by the distance...yet in reality, the plane is same size and doesn't lose any of its properties. So the pale blue dot is an illusion, the result of voyager's own limitations rather than the converse.

yes... when compared to the observer! but not in the scale of things. While the plane is larger than the observer juxtaposing it against the sky we realise that what we consider really large is actually small in the grand scale of things. if you really thought about it.

Something really interesting is that the "pale blue dot" has a surface that is 70% water and of the 30% left the global urban land was close to 3 %, the global built-up area was about 0.65 %, and the global impervious surface area was merely 0.45 %, of the word’s total land area (excluding Antarctica and Greenland) in 2010.
TAFAKARI HAYO!!

It is said voyager is still within solar system. Now solar system is under influence of the sun , the only star in the system. There are billons of other stars in the milky way galaxy. There are billions of galaxies in the universe, each with billions upon billions of stars...that's as far as classification goes. So your 'pale blue' dot ought not to even be visible in the map when you consider the 'greater scheme of things'

That's the point really... this photo was taken in 1990... before the multiparty era. From where it is now it's impossible to see our planet. So imagine from the next star. Someone said.... if we could use the grape fruit analogy if the sun were a grape fruit then earth would be a crystal of raw sugar some 50 ft away but the nearest star would be another grape fruit 2900 miles away. I am thinking one is in Kenya and another one in south Africa.


Is there an end of space?
That this far is the furthest the space is extended.
And what is that empty area beyond the space?
I mean does space exist?

What is space?
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

masukuma
#40 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2016 6:18:23 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
Impunity wrote:
masukuma wrote:
limanika wrote:
masukuma wrote:
limanika wrote:
On pale blue dot, another way to look at the scenario is for instance consider a plane up high in the sky...it appears 1 feet long...in reality it is tens of metres long. The illusion of 1 feet is the result of our own limitations..e.g. we rely on light from the object to the eye.... and interpretation of size is affected by the distance...yet in reality, the plane is same size and doesn't lose any of its properties. So the pale blue dot is an illusion, the result of voyager's own limitations rather than the converse.

yes... when compared to the observer! but not in the scale of things. While the plane is larger than the observer juxtaposing it against the sky we realise that what we consider really large is actually small in the grand scale of things. if you really thought about it.

Something really interesting is that the "pale blue dot" has a surface that is 70% water and of the 30% left the global urban land was close to 3 %, the global built-up area was about 0.65 %, and the global impervious surface area was merely 0.45 %, of the word’s total land area (excluding Antarctica and Greenland) in 2010.
TAFAKARI HAYO!!

It is said voyager is still within solar system. Now solar system is under influence of the sun , the only star in the system. There are billons of other stars in the milky way galaxy. There are billions of galaxies in the universe, each with billions upon billions of stars...that's as far as classification goes. So your 'pale blue' dot ought not to even be visible in the map when you consider the 'greater scheme of things'

That's the point really... this photo was taken in 1990... before the multiparty era. From where it is now it's impossible to see our planet. So imagine from the next star. Someone said.... if we could use the grape fruit analogy if the sun were a grape fruit then earth would be a crystal of raw sugar some 50 ft away but the nearest star would be another grape fruit 2900 miles away. I am thinking one is in Kenya and another one in south Africa.


Is there an end of space?
That this far is the furthest the space is extended.
And what is that empty area beyond the space?
I mean does space exist?

What is space?

I guess you can Google "space-time continuum" and ask the upside down ? To give you his/her defination and philosophical debate about what space is. For me space is a 3dimensional fabric that matter occupied.all there is is space And occasional matter occupying it.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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