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Church leaders: Go to hell!!!
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/31/2008 Posts: 7,081 Location: Kenya
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...The religious in Kenya do not just follow people blindly. The case of church leaders saying that they will ask their faithfuls to vote no in the referendum is neither here nor there. Theirs is not a cult where followers of a certain church have to do what the leaders command. People are clever to make their own independent and informed decisions. If they decide to vote 'no', it is up to them. They should do so as individuals. Some of these clergymen are no better than the politicians we have. They misuse money form their churches, others are involved in sex scandals etc. They have no moral ground to preach to Kenyans things that can cause more harm. To them I say "Go to hell" Magigi attached the following image(s):  J0149407rv.jpg (30kb) downloaded 1 time(s).
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/11/2008 Posts: 19
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Exactly,they need to go to hell.during the last general election they took a back sit when they left their flock to the wolves by telling them to use their own integrity to elect leaders of their choice.what makes them think they now have a right to advice Kenyans. 
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/4/2008 Posts: 1,289 Location: Nairobi
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Someone suggested that there could be other reasons why the churches is not for this new constituition. They could be hiding under the Kadhi's court and the perceived legalised abortion to oppose the new draft law. What else are they uncomfortable with?
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/9/2009 Posts: 311
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In theory, this would be true. But the reality is different. Church leaders do have the network and influence especially outside Nairobi more so if they choose to speak with almost singular voice. The solution now should be to face their concerns squarely and not to hide from it as the COE did. I think the PM and President are trying to do that which is fantastic. Confrontation will only make things worse. Katika Jangwa la Jangili ndipo Pwagu hupata Pwaguzi.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/9/2008 Posts: 2,824
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listen to them....there is enough time to sort out their issues otherwise we may end up in a hot situation like the banana / orange referendum. When I have money, I get rid of it quickly, lest it find a way into my heart.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/20/2008 Posts: 367
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This is rekigious tyranny. This is one of the best things to happen to Kenya and now the Churches want to block it to regain political clout. They can go to Hell.
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/18/2009 Posts: 303
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I hear you but if the state does not listen to the Church and amend the Kadhi and abortion issues before its too late I tell you my brothers and sisters the new constituition will fail.....I CALL UPON ON ALL BIBLE BELIEVERS IN WAZUA TO UNITY WITH OTHER CHRISTIANS AND SAY NO....All the churches (about 96) in my locality have united and are having door to door movement..I have never seeing this kind of unity again...catholics,protestants,wakorino,angel maria etc.Nobody will be able to stop this movement we are fighting for our faith,our country,the unborn and our belief....we will fight with prayers and our votes...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/2/2009 Posts: 2,458 Location: Nairobi
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Pastor M
Wewe na nyinyi piganieni faith yako/yenu pekee yenu.. im also a member of the churches you have mentioned above and i will vote yes..Kadhhis courts or a clause on arbotion... hii hardline mentality sitaki..
but i will remember to pray and pray hard..
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/7/2007 Posts: 11,935 Location: Nairobi
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The Kadhi courts might be an issue but i see nothing that legalizes abortion in this document......while at it,i must ask,what is it the churches expect to be done.The entire constitution making process is enshrined in the current constitution.It might not be possible to take back the document to parliament for amendments and neither can the two principal do anything about it.......Calling for a No vote is itself a tall order.It would require proper and well coordinated campaigns which i doubt the church have the capacity......Even then,i can't entirely trash their effort. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/15/2006 Posts: 3,905
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Pray ye, pray ye, take a moment to read an insightful article that explains why we must applaud Ms Martha Karua, Mr Caroli Omondi and Mr Kathurima M’inoti.They ochestrated a master stroke that smoothed and hastened the review process, by the deliberate omission of these four entities:1. The non-governmental bodies in Kenya at times do some decent advocacy jobs. The bottom line, however, is that they are only accountable to those who underwrite their budgets. 2. The Kenyan judiciary, historically, is an institution distrusted by ordinary Kenyans but loved by leaders. 3. The office of the Attorney-General wasn’t even trusted with the legal drafting of the Act. History has shown that the many debacles that befell the review process were subtly engineered or planted by the office. 4. Religious organisations and bodies in the mould of the colourful Bomas crowd were also deliberately omitted. This was to ensure that divisions are kept to the minimum. Master Strokes article linkIt is universally acknowledged that constitution making during peace time is difficult. The players don’t see the urgency to make sacrifices that are necessary in constitutional making.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/24/2008 Posts: 238
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Ati they go to hell?
1. The church leaders are expressing their opinion- since when did they lose their right to express their opinion? How intolerant can you be? As someone said, you may not agree with them but you should respect, nay, fight, for their right to express their opinion. They will not be with you at the referundum booth, so I guess whatever they may say, there is no such a thing as 'the church position'.
2. Are you ready to face them on the issue they are raising or you want to personalise the matter? So you do not agree with them, kwani we are all meant to agree on this katiba? The issues they raise- abortion & separation of state and religion- are weighty and are controversial even in the oldest democracies. Some would shudder at any attempt to anchor in the constitution any position on abortion- leave alone the deeply philosophical and controversial issue of when life begins. As Wakoli MP- of all people- was quoted to have said, God knew him by name long before he was conceived and born!
3. Ati in 2007 (or was it 2005) they left you with the wolves- and now you are comfortable being on the same side with the wolves and blame them? Am I not sensing that you now expect them to ask you to vote with your conscience, exactly what they did in 2005? Or may be you want them to agree with you and the best way to achieve that is to hurl insults at them?
4. Who do you chose to follow- the politician or the religious leader? That might eventually be the issue in the referendum! I do not think there is a right and wrong answer to that question. I think it is the question that is wrong but that is our country for you, where the sideshows are the main events! From where I stand, opinions of politicians on the constitution are of bread and butter importance and I ignore them at my peril but I can ignore opinion of religious leaders on matters religious so long as I figure I have put myself right with God. To many the question could be: Are the issues the clergy is raising at the centre of my religious belief and do I share their opinion? A not-so-surprising answer may be yes, but damn them!
5. There is some herd mentality especially where our politics is concerned.Except for the excepts in the media, I have not read the proposed constitution and I believe many Kenyans especially the loudest on the matter have not read it but have chosen to follow someone, or the general mood. No problem with that, but for me the more divergent people I hear the better and there is a long way to the referendum to be convinced to vote either way.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/11/2009 Posts: 1,223
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A symbol can cost you an election. In 2005 nobody would like to be associated with a BANANA 'republic' hence ORANGE carried the day. But that belongs to the history books. In this coming referendum the IEEC should choose their symbols wisely to avoid polarization. If i were them of which i am not i would choose a mobile phone vs wrist-watch for either yes or no. History will not remember you for your IQ. It will remember you for what you did. “Genius is 1 percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration.” Thomas Edison
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/2/2007 Posts: 536
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Brewer wrote:Ati they go to hell?
1. The church leaders are expressing their opinion- since when did they lose their right to express their opinion? How intolerant can you be? As someone said, you may not agree with them but you should respect, nay, fight, for their right to express their opinion. They will not be with you at the referundum booth, so I guess whatever they may say, there is no such a thing as 'the church position'.
2. Are you ready to face them on the issue they are raising or you want to personalise the matter? So you do not agree with them, kwani we are all meant to agree on this katiba? The issues they raise- abortion & separation of state and religion- are weighty and are controversial even in the oldest democracies. Some would shudder at any attempt to anchor in the constitution any position on abortion- leave alone the deeply philosophical and controversial issue of when life begins. As Wakoli MP- of all people- was quoted to have said, God knew him by name long before he was conceived and born!
3. Ati in 2007 (or was it 2005) they left you with the wolves- and now you are comfortable being on the same side with the wolves and blame them? Am I not sensing that you now expect them to ask you to vote with your conscience, exactly what they did in 2005? Or may be you want them to agree with you and the best way to achieve that is to hurl insults at them?
4. Who do you chose to follow- the politician or the religious leader? That might eventually be the issue in the referendum! I do not think there is a right and wrong answer to that question. I think it is the question that is wrong but that is our country for you, where the sideshows are the main events! From where I stand, opinions of politicians on the constitution are of bread and butter importance and I ignore them at my peril but I can ignore opinion of religious leaders on matters religious so long as I figure I have put myself right with God. To many the question could be: Are the issues the clergy is raising at the centre of my religious belief and do I share their opinion? A not-so-surprising answer may be yes, but damn them!
5. There is some herd mentality especially where our politics is concerned.Except for the excepts in the media, I have not read the proposed constitution and I believe many Kenyans especially the loudest on the matter have not read it but have chosen to follow someone, or the general mood. No problem with that, but for me the more divergent people I hear the better and there is a long way to the referendum to be convinced to vote either way. Good stuff. We really need to learn to be tolerant to other views. If you don't agree, it does not mean that you work your socks off to shut the other person off. Herd mentality - absolutely. That's one of the main problems with Kenyan politics. As a follower of Christ, I think I now need to go read the constitution and see for myself what is there and make a prayerful decision.
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/9/2009 Posts: 311
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Think about it-how many people have you met that have actually READ the final draft? Majority of Kenyans haven't. They didn't even get a copy of the first draft. You need only look at the threads on the katiba on this forum and you can see that even among the educated, many haven't. Implication? The decision of most will be based on what their opinion leaders tell them. Scary but true. Thus, most voting decisions will boil down to two factors: 1. Who has your ear - Politican through the press & rallies, buddies through bar/market/shamba talk, church through sunday service, relatives etc. 2. Depending on 1, who's word do you trust more - Is it your educated relative/friend that has read the draft or your local politican or your local NGO/CBO leader or your local religious leader etc Even a lie starts to appear true if you can repeat it often enough (Read - Sunday after Sunday after Sunday...). With Ruto & Co. already defiant, any smart politician will want to have as many opinion leaders as possible beating the war drums on their side. Thankfully, this is something that Mr. Wambui and Nusu Kapeti appear to understand. Katika Jangwa la Jangili ndipo Pwagu hupata Pwaguzi.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/30/2009 Posts: 141
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Fellow Christians There is no abortion in this draft. Unless of course you are one of those catholic priests who prey on young boys and the Kesha pastors who love doing their flock, I don't see any abortion in the draft. the intellegence issue is important but fundaah covered that. The rest are just people and churches trying to stay relevant. Hii ni upusi tu. It will be interesting to see how these churches react in 2012 when some guy decides to start another small war because he's not president....based on the current constitution. Hata wakizima taa
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 1,279 Location: nbi
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I'm still waiting for these d***heads to tell me why they don't boycott the current katiba since it has the cathy courts in it. Chruch leaders have been an embarassment since the 2005 referendum when buried their heads in the sand and subsequent tribal support in 2007 GE. The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/11/2008 Posts: 19
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I dont have an issue with the abortion clause coz nothing is indicating that it is allowed.As for the Kadhis court we've been having them even in the current constitution but do they affect our lives as non muslims-nop and yes, no because they serve muslims only and yes because their budget is footed by tax payers money-me included y?let it be removed from the constitution and allow for a complete separation of the state and religion-bila grudge
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Rank: Member Joined: 9/13/2006 Posts: 70
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Yap! ever heard of the majority rule...our muslim brothers can have their Kadhi courts but out of our constitution!!! we can not continue paying for 1895 agreements between the British and sultan of Zanzibar!As for abortion clause i do not see anything wrong with protecting the life of a mother when in danger Kama kuoga ni usafi taulo lachafukani?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/1/2009 Posts: 2,436
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Abortion is simply a symptom, a symptom of a deeper social malaise/ societal failure where adults across all ages engage is casual makudinyo without a care, or where a child is conceived of a rape,etc. Or from just poor contraceptive planning.
These societal failures must be the very reasons why the church is afraid, because the guilty are afraid. To the extent societal failure reflects some degree of failure of the churches, the churches are afraid that these failures will be tied to their inability to lead & guide their flock when most needed.
Maybe that's why they are afraid of hearing that word, even when it clear no one is advocating for the act.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 3/18/2010 Posts: 13 Location: Nairobi
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All major wars are religion based.
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