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Just How Big the Universe is
limanika
#101 Posted : Sunday, February 28, 2016 5:42:20 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:
..and if the universe is infinite, space is limitless as well. If space has no end,time has no end.


And therefore ....

...Eternity is real


Whatever conclusion an intelligent agent reaches can only be evaluated when it's tested in it's social context and ecosystem against its needs.

Therefore for me the questions that arise are who benefits from the reality of eternity? Who loses? What's changed by such a reality ... how does that affect action in the social context? How does it meet the intelligent requirements that spurred the thought?

So you're essentially alone in your thinking and no one can ever validate your thoughts ...




If eternity is a reality then the next logical step isn’t to question who benefits / who loses. Rather, how did it all start? Or in fact did it all start? How then was it started? Then…and only then you might get an answer to your question.

tycho
#102 Posted : Sunday, February 28, 2016 11:08:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
limanika wrote:
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:
tycho wrote:
limanika wrote:
..and if the universe is infinite, space is limitless as well. If space has no end,time has no end.


And therefore ....

...Eternity is real


Whatever conclusion an intelligent agent reaches can only be evaluated when it's tested in it's social context and ecosystem against its needs.

Therefore for me the questions that arise are who benefits from the reality of eternity? Who loses? What's changed by such a reality ... how does that affect action in the social context? How does it meet the intelligent requirements that spurred the thought?

So you're essentially alone in your thinking and no one can ever validate your thoughts ...




If eternity is a reality then the next logical step isn’t to question who benefits / who loses. Rather, how did it all start? Or in fact did it all start? How then was it started? Then…and only then you might get an answer to your question.



Not true. The declaration that something is real isn't a universal imperative. Even on this thread you'll find the contrary position that 'time doesn't exist and is probably 'unreal'.

Another example to illustrate my point is if I asked you whether ghosts are real. Many would say ghosts aren't real. But is the question of ghosts being real equivalent to that of ghosts being existent? Some thought will show that something real doesn't always exist and not all existent things are real!

The other point was highlighted by Wittgenstein; words, symbols, are not supported by concrete things ultimately. Words end up in more words such that speech has to be justified by action and experience. The word worth uttering is one which has political objectives.
tycho
#103 Posted : Sunday, February 28, 2016 11:13:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.
limanika
#104 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 8:16:37 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
@Tycho now you've taken us to square one. Does time exist? YES. But it depends on your definition of time. From where I sit, time is simply derived from interelationship btwn speed and distance. Eg Speed of light/ distance = time. What's your definition?
limanika
#105 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 8:51:40 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.

Not true. The universe is governed by principals. And we rely on same to understand it. E.g. If an observer says Sun rotates round the earth, we know that ain't true.
harrydre
#106 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 7:18:56 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.


We just have no capability. It's like asking safari ants somewhere on Mt. kenya, to figure out the entire country. Do you see how impossible that would be? Yet, in their world, they know they are the best in building their kingdom, protecting it etc etc.

We are probably that 'small' in perspective to bigger things(beings) out there.
i.am.back!!!!
masukuma
#107 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 7:37:20 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
harrydre wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.


We just have no capability. It's like asking safari ants somewhere on Mt. kenya, to figure out the entire country. Do you see how impossible that would be? Yet, in their world, they know they are the best in building their kingdom, protecting it etc etc.

We are probably that 'small' in perspective to bigger things(beings) out there.

I have always held that the silence we experience may mean 3 things
1) we are alone
2) the others are so ahead that they in the same way we have no interest and don't try to communicate with fish or plants have no interest in communicating with us
3) they may be so 'behind' that the best they can offer would be plant level intelligence.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#108 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 10:16:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
limanika wrote:
@Tycho now you've taken us to square one. Does time exist? YES. But it depends on your definition of time. From where I sit, time is simply derived from interelationship btwn speed and distance. Eg Speed of light/ distance = time. What's your definition?


I think we're always on 'square one'. But we can come back to this later.

I think 'time' is more real than existent. You agree with this sense when you say 'it's definition varies'. A good test would be to ask, 'where does time exist'? If we happen not to know where time exists and how we can direct someone to it, then we can safely assume it doesn't exist but is real - significant.

When it's real, then not only can definitions vary but they can also conflict. Reality is a political construct. What's the average lifespan of a housefly with respect to a human? A housefly? Whose time exists and where?....
tycho
#109 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 10:21:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
limanika wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.

Not true. The universe is governed by principals. And we rely on same to understand it. E.g. If an observer says Sun rotates round the earth, we know that ain't true.


Do you know for how long humans believed that the sun goes round the earth? Yet they built cities ...
tycho
#110 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 10:31:29 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
harrydre wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.


We just have no capability. It's like asking safari ants somewhere on Mt. kenya, to figure out the entire country. Do you see how impossible that would be? Yet, in their world, they know they are the best in building their kingdom, protecting it etc etc.

We are probably that 'small' in perspective to bigger things(beings) out there.


Humans study ants and in the same breath, the sun. Do ants study humans? Do they have a CERN equivalent? Man has good reason to believe he's special.

Even 'God' we can contemplate...

tycho
#111 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 10:42:34 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
masukuma wrote:
harrydre wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.


We just have no capability. It's like asking safari ants somewhere on Mt. kenya, to figure out the entire country. Do you see how impossible that would be? Yet, in their world, they know they are the best in building their kingdom, protecting it etc etc.

We are probably that 'small' in perspective to bigger things(beings) out there.

I have always held that the silence we experience may mean 3 things
1) we are alone
2) the others are so ahead that they in the same way we have no interest and don't try to communicate with fish or plants have no interest in communicating with us
3) they may be so 'behind' that the best they can offer would be plant level intelligence.


The silence can also be accounted for by other reasons;
4. We haven't built the capacity to listen ... like it's taken us years to discover cosmic background radiation waves ....

5. Design. For example we could be modelled like a program with 'information hiding'...
tycho
#112 Posted : Monday, February 29, 2016 10:44:55 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
(redundant post)
masukuma
#113 Posted : Tuesday, March 01, 2016 9:55:40 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
masukuma wrote:
harrydre wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.


We just have no capability. It's like asking safari ants somewhere on Mt. kenya, to figure out the entire country. Do you see how impossible that would be? Yet, in their world, they know they are the best in building their kingdom, protecting it etc etc.

We are probably that 'small' in perspective to bigger things(beings) out there.

I have always held that the silence we experience may mean 3 things
1) we are alone
2) the others are so ahead that they in the same way we have no interest and don't try to communicate with fish or plants have no interest in communicating with us
3) they may be so 'behind' that the best they can offer would be plant level intelligence.


The silence can also be accounted for by other reasons;
4. We haven't built the capacity to listen ... like it's taken us years to discover cosmic background radiation waves ....

5. Design. For example we could be modelled like a program with 'information hiding'...

we could have a list of 1000 things why we experience the silence and that would still be a list synonymous to a list drawn up by a group of philosophizing ants in Mt. Kenya forest explaining just how they are the (for lack of a better word) Sh*t! how they rule the world. That list would not be influenced by bodies of water as large as lakes or seas or the knowledge of mountains larger than their mounds. This is what is know as a worldview!
In very much the same way it's similar to our other worldviews for example

Those guys would have never seen Marsupials or red wood trees. Heck there is no domestic cat in the bible. Everyone who goes to that place and comes back looks at Milima ya mizautuni as a a small hill. Our worldview may change as soon as an explorer's boot hits our mound and everything we ever thought we knew evaporates as it struggles to explain this bipedal creature.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Anti_Burglar
#114 Posted : Tuesday, March 01, 2016 10:17:30 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/11/2015
Posts: 1,024
masukuma wrote:


.



Revelation was given in Patmos somewhere in Greece. When you get basic geography wrong like that, as if Greece is inside that circle, it gives me the impression you just copy paste things in the internet haphazardly to sound clever. Now how can I take what you say seriously, o Babylonian, when basic facts escape you?
harrydre
#115 Posted : Tuesday, March 01, 2016 10:44:36 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
Anti_Burglar wrote:
masukuma wrote:


.



Revelation was given in Patmos somewhere in Greece. When you get basic geography wrong like that, as if Greece is inside that circle, it gives me the impression you just copy paste things in the internet haphazardly to sound clever. Now how can I take what you say seriously, o Babylonian, when basic facts escape you?


There are many references to the roman empire in the bible too...
i.am.back!!!!
harrydre
#116 Posted : Tuesday, March 01, 2016 10:46:10 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
tycho
#117 Posted : Tuesday, March 01, 2016 11:06:33 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
masukuma wrote:
tycho wrote:
masukuma wrote:
harrydre wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Universe could also be as big as an observer can determine with her mind.


We just have no capability. It's like asking safari ants somewhere on Mt. kenya, to figure out the entire country. Do you see how impossible that would be? Yet, in their world, they know they are the best in building their kingdom, protecting it etc etc.

We are probably that 'small' in perspective to bigger things(beings) out there.

I have always held that the silence we experience may mean 3 things
1) we are alone
2) the others are so ahead that they in the same way we have no interest and don't try to communicate with fish or plants have no interest in communicating with us
3) they may be so 'behind' that the best they can offer would be plant level intelligence.


The silence can also be accounted for by other reasons;
4. We haven't built the capacity to listen ... like it's taken us years to discover cosmic background radiation waves ....

5. Design. For example we could be modelled like a program with 'information hiding'...

we could have a list of 1000 things why we experience the silence and that would still be a list synonymous to a list drawn up by a group of philosophizing ants in Mt. Kenya forest explaining just how they are the (for lack of a better word) Sh*t! how they rule the world. That list would not be influenced by bodies of water as large as lakes or seas or the knowledge of mountains larger than their mounds. This is what is know as a worldview!
In very much the same way it's similar to our other worldviews for example

Those guys would have never seen Marsupials or red wood trees. Heck there is no domestic cat in the bible. Everyone who goes to that place and comes back looks at Milima ya mizautuni as a a small hill. Our worldview may change as soon as an explorer's boot hits our mound and everything we ever thought we knew evaporates as it struggles to explain this bipedal creature.


World views do change, and it could be said that one of humanity's greatest strength is this ability to change world views.

Your ant metaphor, and relative size of Mt Zion however don't add much to discredit any world view. Any world view is valid if it helps optimize adaptation at any context. Man, will never have an ultimate and unchanging worldview that answers all his questions. In fact a lifetime is too brief for that.

What each of us is saying now is heavily influenced by our psychological programs; is there a way we can reveal these programs, and can we know how we have them? For example, in your post you assert 3 reasons for the silence 'we' hear. Then when other reasons appear, what do you do next? How does your worldview change?

If Man has power, then the crown is his ability to see his mind and change it at will.




masukuma
#118 Posted : Tuesday, March 01, 2016 1:38:04 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
harrydre wrote:
http://www.roman-empire.net/maps/map-empire.html

I invite you to read the image AGAIN!!!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
limanika
#119 Posted : Tuesday, March 01, 2016 1:40:54 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
@masukuma et al. The Bible is principally about relationship between God and man. Man is a creature, i don't think there's any obligation on the part of the creator to 'prove' or explain certain things like origin of universe. Moving on quickly forward, I hold the view that probably what we need is someone to prove that it is not possible to explain the origin of the universe in our current physical state. Just like yo can't divide 1/0..... And perharps for our own good. What we can try to do is seek to understand the behaviour of space / time/ matter but only within our near environment/ neighborhood, just like an ant in mt Kenya.
Anti_Burglar
#120 Posted : Tuesday, March 01, 2016 2:37:36 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/11/2015
Posts: 1,024
masukuma wrote:
harrydre wrote:
http://www.roman-empire.net/maps/map-empire.html

I invite you to read the image AGAIN!!!



Maskums, I feel left out when you respond to others but not me. Is it because I call you 'Babylonian'? Moving on, reading the map again, I remember the God being given gifts by some wise men from the East. The east ended at the border of the circle?













Alphdoti, please stay away from this one, I do not feel like entertaining you for now.
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