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Friday 27th is therefore my leave day!!!!!!!
masukuma
#71 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2015 10:46:40 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
perhaps people need to like walk down memory lane to understand what these 'languages' or 'cultures' are... they are accidents!! I have travelled widely across africa and I have a keen ear. I listen and map people. I have my own theory (which is so far standing and seems to explain why we are as we are - but that is a different question). Our ansestors migrated not kwa uzuri but wars, disease hunger, over population e.t.c. and by accident isolation created some of the languages we have. For example - my trip to South Sudan helped me understand the nilotic people (eastern and western nilotes) and their origin and language structure. it even assisted me understand the bantus as there are a number of equitoria people over there. as people migrated - small changes brought about by accents (best example is the Embu, Kirinyaga and Kikuyus) were magnified as time passed and as they interracted with other groups they took stronger elements from those other cultures and kept the ones that made sense. I am sure there was some guy who first shrubbed something and the kids took on the dad's shrub as being truth. That may explain why Kyuks say "mbura" maragolis say "imbura" and as far south as south africa it's known as "pula". Zimbabwe means "house of stone" like "zimba"... "nyumba" "bwe" as in "jiwe". Pigs "nguruwe" are known as "kolobe" very far south.
We have the Kikuyus who like thumping their chest over circumistion as if Abraham's other name was Njoroge got it from the Maasais who in turn got it from cushitic people. People who never had access to the cushitic people (or migrating people who had contact with cushites) never traditionally practiced circumsition. I am in UG now and circumcision here is not a big deal. The Twa of congo picked up languages from the bantus and moved on. No one before these "wahengas" you keep on talking about moved on with life by looking back! if someone came with iron working they embraced it. if you go down south you find bantu people there who passed through the San and Khoisan people - you find elements of their language. LIFE WORKS BY MOVING FORWARD NOT BACKWARD. We now are at an unprecedented period of time where people are doing interactions daily that wahengas took many years to achieve. All those Wahengas thought their people were living where they are ad infinitum. the Kikuyu/dholuo people are speaking is an accidental product of migration and isolation or sometimes interaction with others. I am sure the Wahengas were looking at the youngmen speaking the sheng of their time a mix of Arabic and some bantu language and saying... MAKE UP YOUR MIND!! DON'T MIX THESE TWO LANGUAGES... MKOSA MILA NI MTUMWA (using some ancient bantu language) in much the same way old people look at the young with sheng. The product of which is Kiswahili and we have some enforcers telling us not to mix kiswahili with some other language in order to keep it's integrity--- what integrity? My point - there is nothing new happening... it's just happening on steroids. Our languages will die and join latin soon simply because LANGUAGES ARE UTILITIES and they either morph into something useful or die and are forgotten. unlike those people who underwent these evolution in languages - WE KNOW THESE THINGS, we are now able to self determine instead of being irresponsible and letting "things flow".
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Much Know
#72 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2015 10:48:44 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,581
The Ultimate Mhenga aka Musemakweli on the issue of language is the constitution, (Chapter 3, 44. Language and culture) in my interpretation, it says:- "speaking whatever language wherever is a FREE CHOICE or natural freedom that should not bother anyone, or rather, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS whatever the other person language they speak, unless they are speaking to you". I see nothing wrong with that, but it goes further and adds value to language (meaning people can earn from their culture and it is not empty "backward" as some here claim) as follows:-

IN THE PREAMBLE
ACKNOWLEDGING the supremacy of the Almighty God of all creation:

PROUD of our ethnic, cultural and religious diversity, and
determined to live in peace and unity as one indivisible sovereign
nation:

11. (1) This Constitution recognises culture as the foundation
of the nation and as the cumulative civilization of the Kenyan people
and nation.
(2) The State shall—
(a) promote all forms of national and cultural expression
through literature, the arts, traditional celebrations, science,
communication, information, mass media, publications,
libraries and other cultural heritage;
(b) recognise the role of science and indigenous technologies
in the development of the nation; and
(c) promote the intellectual property rights of the people of
Kenya.
(3) Parliament shall enact legislation to—
(a) ensure that communities receive compensation or royalties
for the use of their cultures and cultural heritage; and
(b) recognise and protect the ownership of indigenous seeds
and plant varieties, their genetic and diverse characteristics
and their use by the communities of Kenya.
Ras Kienyeji Man
Impunity
#73 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2015 11:05:22 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,331
Location: Masada
Lolest! wrote:
Friday pia ni sikukuu? wapi linki kwani sipati habari hii kokote mtandaoni?


Rink ndio hii.
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

masukuma
#74 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2015 11:06:13 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
the changes i am talking about are happening to everyone - whether they like it or not! it's happening to the english, it happens to the chinese or even the innuit! we should do what is PRACTICAL not what is traditional - not because someone else is doing it but rather because IT'S GOOD FOR US! languages are utilities. Culture and tradition is just a repetition of how things were done and norms. Things are changing watu wapende wasipende.... that's just how things are! humans have been on this planet for around 150k years and perhaps the oldest isolated group of humans is the khoisan and so they may represent how humans looked like really long ago! so kama unataka utamaduni ama mila... fanya ya khoisan if you enforce anything else... hiyo ni "utumwa". Nkt!!... (did you see what I did there?)
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Swenani
#75 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2015 11:07:30 AM
Rank: User

Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
marko wrote:
Anti_Burglar wrote:
Marko, if you think culture, democracy and politics are properly compartmentalized in this country you need to go back to sleep. I wish you sweet dreams.


Why don't you present your argument? You have practically said nothing there. You remind me of those days people used to post full-stops and the word ditto just to get more post numbers on the record.


Dittosmile
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
Anti_Burglar
#76 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2015 11:27:38 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/11/2015
Posts: 1,024
marko wrote:
Anti_Burglar wrote:
Marko, if you think culture, democracy and politics are properly compartmentalized in this country you need to go back to sleep. I wish you sweet dreams.


Why don't you present your argument? You have practically said nothing there. You remind me of those days people used to post full-stops and the word ditto just to get more post numbers on the record.


I'm sorry you have missed it. I wish I spoke someone who was awake. I regret my wasted post.
Much Know
#77 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2015 11:29:25 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,581
It is also important to differentiate "modern" and "culture" some people mix up concepts. The Japanese are steeped in their culture and language and are a modern and thriving nation, more economically stable with higher per capita income than all English speaking nations, In Singapore Lee Kwan Yu used Confucian culture as a foundation particularly for ethics and family, The Chinese, the same, go to norway ni hivo hivo, whatever makes one think English in a necessity and "dumping their culture or language" is "advancing", is one of the biggest lies one can tell themselves. Modernization is not directly proportional to western culture, hio ni hesabu ya utothi kidogo, these are totally different things, it's like those blonds who argue "go and put on an animal skin" when you talk about culture, they can't differentiate between, dress, language, the economy, e.t.c, they are advancing inside an English speaking "advancement bubble" whereas the reverse is true and people are earning from their cultures.
Ras Kienyeji Man
masukuma
#78 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2015 11:51:21 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Much Know wrote:
It is also important to differentiate "modern" and "culture" some people mix up concepts. The Japanese are steeped in their culture and language and are a modern and thriving nation, more economically stable with higher per capita income than all English speaking nations, In Singapore Lee Kwan Yu used Confucian culture as a foundation particularly for ethics and family, The Chinese, the same, go to norway ni hivo hivo, whatever makes one think English in a necessity and "dumping their culture or language" is "advancing", is one of the biggest lies one can tell themselves. Modernization is not directly proportional to western culture, hio ni hesabu ya utothi kidogo, these are totally different things, it's like those blonds who argue "go and put on an animal skin" when you talk about culture, they can't differentiate between, dress, language, the economy, e.t.c, they are advancing inside an English speaking "advancement bubble" whereas the reverse is true and people are earning from their cultures.

still driving with a mirror looking back! culture is what you do everyday. What is enforced by society. a set of values. the norms so to speak. For example the Confucian culture may have some aspects that dictate that hardwork is valued here! it may stipulate that our people will value hardwork and honesty above money! The japanese have a culture of honour! where family honour is very valuable way above individual rights. All these are aspect of a culture that when implemented together in a certain context yield fruits. I dare say that Confucius did not have Singapore in mind when he asked people to follow his teachings. Any culture on the planet is exactly the same way. Unlike Confucius or whoever is the key person in Japanese culture WE KNOW MORE!! Why not learn aspects of Japanese culture, Chinese culture or even European culture that worked together to make them where they are? it's like food... we have an assortment of values and outlooks. Why not create our own recipe that involves copying from others as it makes sense? by asking IS IT BENEFITIAL TO US? copying European culture for the sake of copying is what I call MONKEY SEE, MONKEY DO! keeping aspects of our culture that we know are pointless like FGM just because our forefathers practiced it (and their forefathers before them didn't) is stupid! Why not move forward? formulate a cultural identity based on NOW! It's silly to think that TODAY is the epitome of human existence... we are transitioning! Whether they like it or not the chinese are transitioning... the english are transitioning... the Japanese are transitioning... MOVE FORWARD AND NOT INTO YOUR PAST OR SOMEONE ELSES PAST! Be deliberate.... Be utilitarian.... in the same way you don't drive a smoky Ford Model T (because it is the 'original' assembly line car) don't stick to a smoky language or cultural aspect just because it's 'original'. actively learn from others... try and jump yards and steps... get ahead! be deliberate the current golden age has given you this one thing that no one in history had... USE IT!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
masukuma
#79 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:10:22 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
by the way... what is the point of a "language"? it's to communicate - right? for better or for worse we have english spoken more widely... is knowledge of english an asset? Do you see a future where a person in Kenya will not know how to speak english? if a language's primary reason of being is communication - why not embrace a widely spoken one? our children will learn these things... they will look around and pick a predominant language upende usipende! kinda like I did myself... Kikuyu is the language my mum and dad spoke to me in the evening.... as soon as I stepped out of that door I met all manner of people... in our plot and in school and church.... for 8-10 hours i was immersed in swahili/sheng and in the evening again.... kikuyu for like 4hours or less. My brother and I spoke swahili to each other and answered back in swahili! the only time i felt lack of knowing kikuyu was a problem was when I travelled to shags... my kids will not travel to that "shags" they will travel to Nakuru town as their shags or Mombasa as their shags - they will not feel the need to speak that language. most of us have travelled long distances from where we were born originally and look around... this will be shags for your grandchildren.... apartments and gated communities. someone will call donholm shags! this is of course assuming that they will care to travel to shags!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
sitaki.kujulikana
#80 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:21:57 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 8/25/2012
Posts: 1,826
murchr wrote:
marko wrote:
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
masukuma wrote:
hardwood wrote:
Shida is that kikuyus have been bullied and intimidated so much online (and elsewhere) particularly by luos and luhyas that some fear even saying they are kikuyus. But i am not the kind to be intimidated. When the pigs bring their ujinga, i jump into their pigsty and whip sense into them.

Kikuyus should be proud of their culture, language and their sons and daughters. Just like luos, bukusus, kaleos, maasai etc are. It's not ujinga to be proud of your heritage and your people. We have an obligation to bring up our sons and daughters i.e. the next generation of kikuyus to be people who are proud of their culture and heritage....and the accomplishments of their people.

You have a point however it's a single story. For some of us Kikuyu was never taught to us...it never stuck and so while we hear it fairly well the line will and with us. The not needing to learn it was made stronger by the fact that being a kikuyu is sometimes harmful to your health... something that you don't know becomes a burden and of course that will not make one look for their roots. Some try and relate you learning kikuyu to an Englishman learning English and if English is good enough for the Englishman all kikuyus should learn kikuyu because the englishman is learning English... it's a case of monkey see monkey do! For one it's practical for the other it's learning for the sake of learning. I personally find it pointless but that's just me. The rest can engage in episodes of monkey see monkey do... hapo siko!
ati an obligation....TO WHO? WHO IS MARKING? COMPETITION WITHOUT MEDALS ARE POINTLESS

Great point, its learning for the sake of learning. What's the fascination with ones mother tongue, one can survive with only English but try that with only your mother tongue, you will soon realize it's useless.

Waafrika mna shida kweli.


Shida kubwa sana. Those they so bad try to emulate, or rather live like, could not live with their different tribes and cultures that's why they have the many little countries in Europe. And the conflict (difference in cultures incl lingo) continues to play out these days in the so called Great Britain with the Scotts, Welsh & Irish and in Spain & Catalonia.

****My point**** Even if you dont talk fluent in your mother tongue for heavensake learn to communicate in it, and not necessarily be fluent or know extra msamiatis no, but its absolutely rude for someone to talk to you in Kyuk and you respond in English ignoring the fact that they may not understand you. One thing I like with Americans (Yeah I know someone is about to say am comparing monkeys) is that they NEVER forget their roots and even tho they may be proud to be called Americans, they will always attach the Italian, Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, Korean, Latino, Turkish, Israeli, German, and even Amish before the American. And they never forget the culture and everything that comes with it that being food festivals (Mardi gras, Halloween etc), and language. Companies such as Rosetta Stone flourish because of this.

As the Wahenga said, muacha mila ni mtumwa.

I don't think the current generation of Italian or German or Vietnamese Americans give much importance to their ancestral language.

So what happens to those born in mixed cultures, say your mother is a mix of luhya/luo and your father a mix of pokomo/maasai, complicating it, what happens to those who come after luhya/luo/pokomo/maasai and some other mix.

You pick and follow what currently works, and for now you are better off learning Kiswahili, English and throw in some Chinese or French
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