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Julius Njogu...these people,stanchat marathon thief!!
willin2learn
#81 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 1:53:12 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/12/2008
Posts: 1,178
Angelica _ann wrote:
Swenani wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Muheani wrote:
Impunity wrote:
masukuma wrote:
by the way... was it a crime? that jumping in and finishing the race?


I dont think it was a crime by "jumping in and crossing the finish line", the only crime is when he made claim for the recognition and reward for the second benefits.
He should jut decline to claim the benefits and he will be released a free man soon.


All fraudsters...and he is one should be prosecuted.

AK should ban him from athletics for 5yrs

Under which law? He finished no 2. Only that he didn't run the whole race.


Forgery and fraud

How was he number 2 without running the whole course!!! Asking for a friend!!!!!


Guess it's just the way we have nominated Mpigs who never goes through the hustle of wooing voterssmile
Swenani
#82 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 2:06:39 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
Angelica _ann wrote:
Swenani wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Muheani wrote:
Impunity wrote:
masukuma wrote:
by the way... was it a crime? that jumping in and finishing the race?


I dont think it was a crime by "jumping in and crossing the finish line", the only crime is when he made claim for the recognition and reward for the second benefits.
He should jut decline to claim the benefits and he will be released a free man soon.


All fraudsters...and he is one should be prosecuted.

AK should ban him from athletics for 5yrs

Under which law? He finished no 2. Only that he didn't run the whole race.


Forgery and fraud

How was he number 2 without running the whole course!!! Asking for a friend!!!!!


The same way women give birth without experiencing labour pain...CS is forgery and fraud too
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
masukuma
#83 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 3:15:04 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
Angelica _ann wrote:
Swenani wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Muheani wrote:
Impunity wrote:
masukuma wrote:
by the way... was it a crime? that jumping in and finishing the race?


I dont think it was a crime by "jumping in and crossing the finish line", the only crime is when he made claim for the recognition and reward for the second benefits.
He should jut decline to claim the benefits and he will be released a free man soon.


All fraudsters...and he is one should be prosecuted.

AK should ban him from athletics for 5yrs

Under which law? He finished no 2. Only that he didn't run the whole race.


Forgery and fraud

How was he number 2 without running the whole course!!! Asking for a friend!!!!!

he was the second across the finishing line Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly ukishinda watu KCPE lazima ukuwe ulisoma kutoka std 1? Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

the worst thing for him is if he claimed to be no. 2 and wanted 'his money'. If he finished no. 2 and kept mum as people processed him angekuwa safe... but him running on a public road is not an offence.

Angeulizwa angesema he was the second across the finish line... lol!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Impunity
#84 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 3:29:23 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
masukuma wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
Swenani wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Muheani wrote:
Impunity wrote:
masukuma wrote:
by the way... was it a crime? that jumping in and finishing the race?


I dont think it was a crime by "jumping in and crossing the finish line", the only crime is when he made claim for the recognition and reward for the second benefits.
He should jut decline to claim the benefits and he will be released a free man soon.


All fraudsters...and he is one should be prosecuted.

AK should ban him from athletics for 5yrs

Under which law? He finished no 2. Only that he didn't run the whole race.


Forgery and fraud

How was he number 2 without running the whole course!!! Asking for a friend!!!!!

he was the second across the finishing line Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly ukishinda watu KCPE lazima ukuwe ulisoma kutoka std 1? Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

the worst thing for him is if he claimed to be no. 2 and wanted 'his money'. If he finished no. 2 and kept mum as people processed him angekuwa safe... but him running on a public road is not an offence.

Angeulizwa angesema he was the second across the finish line... lol!


That is exactly what I thought, he stops asking for recog/money.

Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

Alba
#85 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 3:29:39 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,256
Location: Bandalungwa
He does not even have the physique of a marathon runner. I am not sure he has even featured in any road races ever. That alone is a dead giveway. And the speed with which he finished with so signs of fatigue is hillarious especially when you consider that the race was being run at high altitude. This jamaa did not even bother to do basic homework.
nakujua
#86 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 3:51:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 3,583
Location: Kenya
Impunity wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
Swenani wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Muheani wrote:
Impunity wrote:
masukuma wrote:
by the way... was it a crime? that jumping in and finishing the race?


I dont think it was a crime by "jumping in and crossing the finish line", the only crime is when he made claim for the recognition and reward for the second benefits.
He should jut decline to claim the benefits and he will be released a free man soon.


All fraudsters...and he is one should be prosecuted.

AK should ban him from athletics for 5yrs

Under which law? He finished no 2. Only that he didn't run the whole race.


Forgery and fraud

How was he number 2 without running the whole course!!! Asking for a friend!!!!!

he was the second across the finishing line Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly ukishinda watu KCPE lazima ukuwe ulisoma kutoka std 1? Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

the worst thing for him is if he claimed to be no. 2 and wanted 'his money'. If he finished no. 2 and kept mum as people processed him angekuwa safe... but him running on a public road is not an offence.

Angeulizwa angesema he was the second across the finish line... lol!


That is exactly what I thought, he stops asking for recog/money.


smile are there any terms and conditions that athletes sign before running the marathon, as in do they have a written down definition of finishing.
masukuma
#87 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 3:54:46 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
nakujua wrote:

smile are there any terms and conditions that athletes sign before running the marathon, as in do they have a written down definition of finishing.

indeed... that does not make it criminal - right? coz doping itself is not criminal...
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
nakujua
#88 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 4:50:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 3,583
Location: Kenya
masukuma wrote:
nakujua wrote:

smile are there any terms and conditions that athletes sign before running the marathon, as in do they have a written down definition of finishing.

indeed... that does not make it criminal - right? coz doping itself is not criminal...

As long as you dope with legal stuff, but when it comes to the latter there are defined substances that are banned - lakini in this case was there a definition of finishing a race, surely panting and sweating can not be used as an excuse to arrest someone, or can it - (not comparing the two) but vivian rarely breaks a sweat.

Been trying to read about past cases where guys cheat especially in marathons, have not come across a case where one was arrested.
masukuma
#89 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 5:09:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
nakujua wrote:
masukuma wrote:
nakujua wrote:

smile are there any terms and conditions that athletes sign before running the marathon, as in do they have a written down definition of finishing.

indeed... that does not make it criminal - right? coz doping itself is not criminal...

As long as you dope with legal stuff, but when it comes to the latter there are defined substances that are banned - lakini in this case was there a definition of finishing a race, surely panting and sweating can not be used as an excuse to arrest someone, or can it - (not comparing the two) but vivian rarely breaks a sweat.

Been trying to read about past cases where guys cheat especially in marathons, have not come across a case where one was arrested.

I think the worst they can do is deny him the price... what he did was despicable but not criminal. He came in second but did not follow the rules of the race so he is disqualified.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
mkenyan
#90 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 6:34:40 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 1,883
masukuma wrote:
nakujua wrote:
masukuma wrote:
nakujua wrote:

smile are there any terms and conditions that athletes sign before running the marathon, as in do they have a written down definition of finishing.

indeed... that does not make it criminal - right? coz doping itself is not criminal...

As long as you dope with legal stuff, but when it comes to the latter there are defined substances that are banned - lakini in this case was there a definition of finishing a race, surely panting and sweating can not be used as an excuse to arrest someone, or can it - (not comparing the two) but vivian rarely breaks a sweat.

Been trying to read about past cases where guys cheat especially in marathons, have not come across a case where one was arrested.

I think the worst they can do is deny him the price... what he did was despicable but not criminal. He came in second but did not follow the rules of the race so he is disqualified.

he committed a criminal offence of attempting to obtain by false pretences. it is immaterial whether he succeeded or not.

penal code on attempt:
Quote:
388.
Attempt defined
(1)
When a person, intending to commit an offence, begins to put his intention into execution by means adapted to its fulfillment, and manifests his intention by some overt act, but does not fulfill his intention to such an extent as to commit the offence, he is deemed to attempt to commit the offence.
(2)
It is immaterial, except so far as regards punishment, whether the offender does all that is necessary on his part for completing the commission of the offence, or whether the complete fulfillment of his intention is prevented by circumstances independent of his will, or whether he desists of his own motion from the further prosecution of his intention.
(3)
It is immaterial that by reason of circumstances not known to the offender it is impossible in fact to commit the offence.
389.
Attempts to commit offences.
Any person who attempts to commit a felony or a misdemeanour is guilty of an offence and is liable, if no other punishment is provided, to one-half of such punishment as may be provided for the offence attempted, but so that if that offence is one punishable by death or life imprisonment he shall not be liable to imprisonment for a term exceeding seven years.


penal code on obtaining:

Quote:
312.
Definition of false pretence
Any representation, made by words, writing or conduct, of a matter of fact, either past or present, which representation is false in fact, and which the person making it knows to be false or does not believe to be true, is a false pretence.
313.
Obtaining by false pretences
Any person who by any false pretence, and with intent to defraud, obtains from any other person anything capable of being stolen, or induces any other person to deliver to any person anything capable of being stolen, is guilty of a misdemeanour and is liable to imprisonment for three years.
masukuma
#91 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 7:16:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
mkenyan wrote:
masukuma wrote:
nakujua wrote:
masukuma wrote:
nakujua wrote:

smile are there any terms and conditions that athletes sign before running the marathon, as in do they have a written down definition of finishing.

indeed... that does not make it criminal - right? coz doping itself is not criminal...

As long as you dope with legal stuff, but when it comes to the latter there are defined substances that are banned - lakini in this case was there a definition of finishing a race, surely panting and sweating can not be used as an excuse to arrest someone, or can it - (not comparing the two) but vivian rarely breaks a sweat.

Been trying to read about past cases where guys cheat especially in marathons, have not come across a case where one was arrested.

I think the worst they can do is deny him the price... what he did was despicable but not criminal. He came in second but did not follow the rules of the race so he is disqualified.

he committed a criminal offence of attempting to obtain by false pretences. it is immaterial whether he succeeded or not.

penal code on attempt:
Quote:
388.
Attempt defined
(1)
When a person, intending to commit an offence, begins to put his intention into execution by means adapted to its fulfillment, and manifests his intention by some overt act, but does not fulfill his intention to such an extent as to commit the offence, he is deemed to attempt to commit the offence.
(2)
It is immaterial, except so far as regards punishment, whether the offender does all that is necessary on his part for completing the commission of the offence, or whether the complete fulfillment of his intention is prevented by circumstances independent of his will, or whether he desists of his own motion from the further prosecution of his intention.
(3)
It is immaterial that by reason of circumstances not known to the offender it is impossible in fact to commit the offence.
389.
Attempts to commit offences.
Any person who attempts to commit a felony or a misdemeanour is guilty of an offence and is liable, if no other punishment is provided, to one-half of such punishment as may be provided for the offence attempted, but so that if that offence is one punishable by death or life imprisonment he shall not be liable to imprisonment for a term exceeding seven years.


penal code on obtaining:

Quote:
312.
Definition of false pretence
Any representation, made by words, writing or conduct, of a matter of fact, either past or present, which representation is false in fact, and which the person making it knows to be false or does not believe to be true, is a false pretence.
313.
Obtaining by false pretences
Any person who by any false pretence, and with intent to defraud, obtains from any other person anything capable of being stolen, or induces any other person to deliver to any person anything capable of being stolen, is guilty of a misdemeanour and is liable to imprisonment for three years.

I am no lawyer but if his defence says HE FINISHED 2ND - which is a fact! he crossed the line as the second person, he was a member of the set of people registered to start the race and he did and he finished the race... it's the middle bit that he did not comply with. What he failed to do is comply with all laws of the sport (same as doping or getting assistance from outside e.g. getting a boda boda to carry you). It would have been false pretence if he came and said he finished second and he did not... but in this case HE ACTUALLY DID! he just wasn't compliant to the rules of the sport. if that is the case footballers who fake injuries to get penalties which make their teams win the said sport should be charged with false pretence. My argument is FALSE PRETENCE SHOULD NOT COVER SPORTS AND THE BEHAVIOUR OF THE PLAYERS WITHIN THE SPORT. coz that is a hornet's nest... where does it stop? coz the object of each sport is to win 'something capable of being stolen'
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
mkenyan
#92 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 8:32:31 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 1,883
masukuma wrote:
mkenyan wrote:
masukuma wrote:
nakujua wrote:
masukuma wrote:
nakujua wrote:

smile are there any terms and conditions that athletes sign before running the marathon, as in do they have a written down definition of finishing.

indeed... that does not make it criminal - right? coz doping itself is not criminal...

As long as you dope with legal stuff, but when it comes to the latter there are defined substances that are banned - lakini in this case was there a definition of finishing a race, surely panting and sweating can not be used as an excuse to arrest someone, or can it - (not comparing the two) but vivian rarely breaks a sweat.

Been trying to read about past cases where guys cheat especially in marathons, have not come across a case where one was arrested.

I think the worst they can do is deny him the price... what he did was despicable but not criminal. He came in second but did not follow the rules of the race so he is disqualified.

he committed a criminal offence of attempting to obtain by false pretences. it is immaterial whether he succeeded or not.

penal code on attempt:
Quote:
388.
Attempt defined
(1)
When a person, intending to commit an offence, begins to put his intention into execution by means adapted to its fulfillment, and manifests his intention by some overt act, but does not fulfill his intention to such an extent as to commit the offence, he is deemed to attempt to commit the offence.
(2)
It is immaterial, except so far as regards punishment, whether the offender does all that is necessary on his part for completing the commission of the offence, or whether the complete fulfillment of his intention is prevented by circumstances independent of his will, or whether he desists of his own motion from the further prosecution of his intention.
(3)
It is immaterial that by reason of circumstances not known to the offender it is impossible in fact to commit the offence.
389.
Attempts to commit offences.
Any person who attempts to commit a felony or a misdemeanour is guilty of an offence and is liable, if no other punishment is provided, to one-half of such punishment as may be provided for the offence attempted, but so that if that offence is one punishable by death or life imprisonment he shall not be liable to imprisonment for a term exceeding seven years.


penal code on obtaining:

Quote:
312.
Definition of false pretence
Any representation, made by words, writing or conduct, of a matter of fact, either past or present, which representation is false in fact, and which the person making it knows to be false or does not believe to be true, is a false pretence.
313.
Obtaining by false pretences
Any person who by any false pretence, and with intent to defraud, obtains from any other person anything capable of being stolen, or induces any other person to deliver to any person anything capable of being stolen, is guilty of a misdemeanour and is liable to imprisonment for three years.

I am no lawyer but if his defence says HE FINISHED 2ND - which is a fact! he crossed the line as the second person, he was a member of the set of people registered to start the race and he did and he finished the race... it's the middle bit that he did not comply with. What he failed to do is comply with all laws of the sport (same as doping or getting assistance from outside e.g. getting a boda boda to carry you). It would have been false pretence if he came and said he finished second and he did not... but in this case HE ACTUALLY DID! he just wasn't compliant to the rules of the sport. if that is the case footballers who fake injuries to get penalties which make their teams win the said sport should be charged with false pretence. My argument is FALSE PRETENCE SHOULD NOT COVER SPORTS AND THE BEHAVIOUR OF THE PLAYERS WITHIN THE SPORT. coz that is a hornet's nest... where does it stop? coz the object of each sport is to win 'something capable of being stolen'

fact is only those who ran the whole race and finished within given positions were entitled to the prize money. he knew this but despite not running the whole race made a claim for the prize money due to the runner up. as long as it can be proven that he did not run the whole race and he made a claim for being second, he would be guilty.

and there is no law baring one from facing criminal action for offences committed in sports. one can, for example, be charged for assault if they beat up a fellow football/hockey etc player or the referee during the game. in most cases as long as the injury is not serious it would be ignored (does not mean it is not criminal) but there have been cases in sports where criminal action for assault have been pursued.

on the diving for penalty, how is the penalty or goal capable of being stolen? fyi, 'capable of being stolen' is a legal term. you can check out section 267 of the penal code of things which are 'capable of being stolen'
masukuma
#93 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2015 11:38:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
mkenyan wrote:

fact is only those who ran the whole race and finished within given positions were entitled to the prize money. he knew this but despite not running the whole race made a claim for the prize money due to the runner up. as long as it can be proven that he did not run the whole race and he made a claim for being second, he would be guilty.

and there is no law baring one from facing criminal action for offences committed in sports. one can, for example, be charged for assault if they beat up a fellow football/hockey etc player or the referee during the game. in most cases as long as the injury is not serious it would be ignored (does not mean it is not criminal) but there have been cases in sports where criminal action for assault have been pursued.

on the diving for penalty, how is the penalty or goal capable of being stolen? fyi, 'capable of being stolen' is a legal term. you can check out section 267 of the penal code of things which are 'capable of being stolen'


let us consider 4 items
1) the football worldcup trophy
2) an olympic gold medal
3) a stash of cash totaling 650k
4) the 21km medal from the standard chartered half marathon race

From where I stand - all the above are 'stealable' - do you agree?

All the above are to be gained in some form of competitive exercise (also known as a game/race/sport). Each sport determines the rules of engagement and how to determine who to give each of the above. For the worldcup... it's goals, for the stash of cash and the olympic medal - it's position of finishing and finally for the 21km medal - it's just finishing the race. There are other rules within the sports that determine whether a goal is legitimate or whether a finish is valid. We have had scenarios where all the 4 above have been obtained by people who have deliberately broken the rules of the sports. The 1986 worldcup was given to Argentina after Maradona used his hand (the hand of God) to score the winning goal, Ben Johnson and others like Marion Jones doped and beat clean athletes to win Olympic goal, Last weekend Njogu started the race.... removed himself from the race then came back to it towards the end and finished 2nd and finally during the 21km race a huge number of people found the distance to be too long and they cut corners but still went and claimed their finisher's medal. The rules of the games clearly state what needs to be done incase someone 'games' the system... for football... it's nothing! for doping it's withdrawal of the medal and giving it to the next clean guy and banning them for X years, for standard chartered? it's refusing to give the cheat the stash of cash and giving it to the next person who complied with all the rules. Why is Njogu's case different? Why does it become a criminal offence?

The case of beating up the ref is clear cut... if an action is illegal outside the confines of sport and illegal within the confines of sport - it's criminal regardless of where you do it. The case of illegal drugs like cocaine comes to mind when this is discussed as well as opposed to the use steroids that are being sold in shops and chemists. The rules of a sport say you should not be on a certain list of drugs but if the law of the land does not bar it - you can use it outside the confines of sports and not land in jail. In the case of running... if it was outside the confines of sports... could someone running and overtaking someone who has been running for much longer be considered an offence? No! since there are no such rules governing that... Can someone be jailed for scoring with their hand while alone in a pitch or during a PE lesson? could someone running to Simba union and back be arrested for deciding it's too far and turning back halfway through? Of course not that's ridiculous. Could someone be arrested for beating up a person while in a football pitch? of course! why? he broke the law of the land!

Sport rules are not laws... breaking and not complying with them should not be considered an criminal offence. Njogu broke a sport's law similar to Maradona running around an claiming that goal, similar to Ben Johnson claiming that gold, similar to a tonne of people turning back on forest road and presenting themselves as 'race finishers'

There are cases of things being illegal outside the confines of sports and legal within sports such as punching people in the face (known as boxing), assaulting people until they pass out known as cage fighting e.t.c. Can someone fill a P3 for being punched senseless in a boxing ring? You see! for it to be a criminal offence the action has to be illegal inside and outside the confines of sport. Running and overtaking people who have been running for 42kms is not illegal outside the confines of sport and can not be considered a criminal offence just because it was done within a sporting event that was competing for a 'stealable' object AKA a trophy (which could include money or even a certificate)..
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
sitaki.kujulikana
#94 Posted : Wednesday, October 28, 2015 2:40:42 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/25/2012
Posts: 1,826
mkenyan wrote:

on the diving for penalty, how is the penalty or goal capable of being stolen? fyi, 'capable of being stolen' is a legal term. you can check out section 267 of the penal code of things which are 'capable of being stolen'

wewe ni wakili kweli ?

if he was capable of stealing by coming in number 2 through his means, why isn't diving to get a penalty not stealing by winning a game to get the prize money, or its only marathon runners who participate in sports for money.
mkenyan
#95 Posted : Wednesday, October 28, 2015 3:04:06 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 1,883
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
mkenyan wrote:

on the diving for penalty, how is the penalty or goal capable of being stolen? fyi, 'capable of being stolen' is a legal term. you can check out section 267 of the penal code of things which are 'capable of being stolen'

wewe ni wakili kweli ?

if he was capable of stealing by coming in number 2 through his means, why isn't diving to get a penalty not stealing by winning a game to get the prize money, or its only marathon runners who participate in sports for money.

i referred to football matches. and you specifically refer to football matches where there is prize money. not all football matches involve prize money. a penalty in all football matches would lead to a possibility of a goal which may lead to a draw, a win or an extra goal. those are not capable of being stolen.

your post, as stated above deals with football matches where there is a prize money (which is another thing altogether). good luck proving intent to obtain though - a player may have a different intent for diving.

same as if one falsely claims to have completed a race where there is nothing capable of being stolen (like prize money) then one can't be guilty of attempting to obtain.

however if there is prize money (as in this case and which i was addressing) and someone lies and then tries to get the said prize then of course one would be guilty of attempting to obtain.

na mimi siyo wakili.
mkenyan
#96 Posted : Wednesday, October 28, 2015 3:24:36 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 1,883
masukuma wrote:
mkenyan wrote:

fact is only those who ran the whole race and finished within given positions were entitled to the prize money. he knew this but despite not running the whole race made a claim for the prize money due to the runner up. as long as it can be proven that he did not run the whole race and he made a claim for being second, he would be guilty.

and there is no law baring one from facing criminal action for offences committed in sports. one can, for example, be charged for assault if they beat up a fellow football/hockey etc player or the referee during the game. in most cases as long as the injury is not serious it would be ignored (does not mean it is not criminal) but there have been cases in sports where criminal action for assault have been pursued.

on the diving for penalty, how is the penalty or goal capable of being stolen? fyi, 'capable of being stolen' is a legal term. you can check out section 267 of the penal code of things which are 'capable of being stolen'


let us consider 4 items
1) the football worldcup trophy
2) an olympic gold medal
3) a stash of cash totaling 650k
4) the 21km medal from the standard chartered half marathon race

From where I stand - all the above are 'stealable' - do you agree?

All the above are to be gained in some form of competitive exercise (also known as a game/race/sport). Each sport determines the rules of engagement and how to determine who to give each of the above. For the worldcup... it's goals, for the stash of cash and the olympic medal - it's position of finishing and finally for the 21km medal - it's just finishing the race. There are other rules within the sports that determine whether a goal is legitimate or whether a finish is valid. We have had scenarios where all the 4 above have been obtained by people who have deliberately broken the rules of the sports. The 1986 worldcup was given to Argentina after Maradona used his hand (the hand of God) to score the winning goal, Ben Johnson and others like Marion Jones doped and beat clean athletes to win Olympic goal, Last weekend Njogu started the race.... removed himself from the race then came back to it towards the end and finished 2nd and finally during the 21km race a huge number of people found the distance to be too long and they cut corners but still went and claimed their finisher's medal. The rules of the games clearly state what needs to be done incase someone 'games' the system... for football... it's nothing! for doping it's withdrawal of the medal and giving it to the next clean guy and banning them for X years, for standard chartered? it's refusing to give the cheat the stash of cash and giving it to the next person who complied with all the rules. Why is Njogu's case different? Why does it become a criminal offence?

The case of beating up the ref is clear cut... if an action is illegal outside the confines of sport and illegal within the confines of sport - it's criminal regardless of where you do it. The case of illegal drugs like cocaine comes to mind when this is discussed as well as opposed to the use steroids that are being sold in shops and chemists. The rules of a sport say you should not be on a certain list of drugs but if the law of the land does not bar it - you can use it outside the confines of sports and not land in jail. In the case of running... if it was outside the confines of sports... could someone running and overtaking someone who has been running for much longer be considered an offence? No! since there are no such rules governing that... Can someone be jailed for scoring with their hand while alone in a pitch or during a PE lesson? could someone running to Simba union and back be arrested for deciding it's too far and turning back halfway through? Of course not that's ridiculous. Could someone be arrested for beating up a person while in a football pitch? of course! why? he broke the law of the land!

Sport rules are not laws... breaking and not complying with them should not be considered an criminal offence. Njogu broke a sport's law similar to Maradona running around an claiming that goal, similar to Ben Johnson claiming that gold, similar to a tonne of people turning back on forest road and presenting themselves as 'race finishers'

There are cases of things being illegal outside the confines of sports and legal within sports such as punching people in the face (known as boxing), assaulting people until they pass out known as cage fighting e.t.c. Can someone fill a P3 for being punched senseless in a boxing ring? You see! for it to be a criminal offence the action has to be illegal inside and outside the confines of sport. Running and overtaking people who have been running for 42kms is not illegal outside the confines of sport and can not be considered a criminal offence just because it was done within a sporting event that was competing for a 'stealable' object AKA a trophy (which could include money or even a certificate)..

on the bold part - attempting to obtain by false pretence is illegal whether done 'within' the sport or in the 'wild'.

for the rest of your post...tl;dr
masukuma
#97 Posted : Wednesday, October 28, 2015 3:47:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
mkenyan wrote:
masukuma wrote:
mkenyan wrote:

fact is only those who ran the whole race and finished within given positions were entitled to the prize money. he knew this but despite not running the whole race made a claim for the prize money due to the runner up. as long as it can be proven that he did not run the whole race and he made a claim for being second, he would be guilty.

and there is no law baring one from facing criminal action for offences committed in sports. one can, for example, be charged for assault if they beat up a fellow football/hockey etc player or the referee during the game. in most cases as long as the injury is not serious it would be ignored (does not mean it is not criminal) but there have been cases in sports where criminal action for assault have been pursued.

on the diving for penalty, how is the penalty or goal capable of being stolen? fyi, 'capable of being stolen' is a legal term. you can check out section 267 of the penal code of things which are 'capable of being stolen'


let us consider 4 items
1) the football worldcup trophy
2) an olympic gold medal
3) a stash of cash totaling 650k
4) the 21km medal from the standard chartered half marathon race

From where I stand - all the above are 'stealable' - do you agree?

All the above are to be gained in some form of competitive exercise (also known as a game/race/sport). Each sport determines the rules of engagement and how to determine who to give each of the above. For the worldcup... it's goals, for the stash of cash and the olympic medal - it's position of finishing and finally for the 21km medal - it's just finishing the race. There are other rules within the sports that determine whether a goal is legitimate or whether a finish is valid. We have had scenarios where all the 4 above have been obtained by people who have deliberately broken the rules of the sports. The 1986 worldcup was given to Argentina after Maradona used his hand (the hand of God) to score the winning goal, Ben Johnson and others like Marion Jones doped and beat clean athletes to win Olympic goal, Last weekend Njogu started the race.... removed himself from the race then came back to it towards the end and finished 2nd and finally during the 21km race a huge number of people found the distance to be too long and they cut corners but still went and claimed their finisher's medal. The rules of the games clearly state what needs to be done incase someone 'games' the system... for football... it's nothing! for doping it's withdrawal of the medal and giving it to the next clean guy and banning them for X years, for standard chartered? it's refusing to give the cheat the stash of cash and giving it to the next person who complied with all the rules. Why is Njogu's case different? Why does it become a criminal offence?

The case of beating up the ref is clear cut... if an action is illegal outside the confines of sport and illegal within the confines of sport - it's criminal regardless of where you do it. The case of illegal drugs like cocaine comes to mind when this is discussed as well as opposed to the use steroids that are being sold in shops and chemists. The rules of a sport say you should not be on a certain list of drugs but if the law of the land does not bar it - you can use it outside the confines of sports and not land in jail. In the case of running... if it was outside the confines of sports... could someone running and overtaking someone who has been running for much longer be considered an offence? No! since there are no such rules governing that... Can someone be jailed for scoring with their hand while alone in a pitch or during a PE lesson? could someone running to Simba union and back be arrested for deciding it's too far and turning back halfway through? Of course not that's ridiculous. Could someone be arrested for beating up a person while in a football pitch? of course! why? he broke the law of the land!

Sport rules are not laws... breaking and not complying with them should not be considered an criminal offence. Njogu broke a sport's law similar to Maradona running around an claiming that goal, similar to Ben Johnson claiming that gold, similar to a tonne of people turning back on forest road and presenting themselves as 'race finishers'

There are cases of things being illegal outside the confines of sports and legal within sports such as punching people in the face (known as boxing), assaulting people until they pass out known as cage fighting e.t.c. Can someone fill a P3 for being punched senseless in a boxing ring? You see! for it to be a criminal offence the action has to be illegal inside and outside the confines of sport. Running and overtaking people who have been running for 42kms is not illegal outside the confines of sport and can not be considered a criminal offence just because it was done within a sporting event that was competing for a 'stealable' object AKA a trophy (which could include money or even a certificate)..

on the bold part - attempting to obtain by false pretence is illegal whether done 'within' the sport or in the 'wild'.

for the rest of your post...tl;dr


yeah it's all same to diving, scoring with the hand, doping... making a black bishop cross to the white side and 'eat' your piece, hiding yourself after starting and sprinting to the finish all done in order to win the trophy!

The way I understand false pretence is if he pretended to be second... he did not pretend to be second - he was second! he cheated his way to second place. If you showed up and said you were second - that would be false pretence. Similar to someone showing up at the worldcup and pretending to be Maradona with a view to be given his cup.

Anyway.... from where I stand - sport offences are not criminal offences unless they are offences outside the field. Njogu the sportsman was just cheated to get to second position.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
sparkly
#98 Posted : Friday, October 30, 2015 7:34:19 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
Loitering around the stadium with intent
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Alba
#99 Posted : Friday, October 30, 2015 11:50:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,256
Location: Bandalungwa
Quote:
Anyway.... from where I stand - sport offences are not criminal offences unless they are offences outside the field. Njogu the sportsman was just cheated to get to second position.


A person can indeed be arrested for offences committed on the field. Many many years ago, a Kenya army soldier playing for the Isiolo army team in the national league was arrested and sentenced for punching referee Williams Ngaah on the field after Ngaah had given him a red card.

Also Njogu blatantly lied that not only did he finish 2nd in the race, but he ran the entire 42km. Arresting him is the right step. If he lies to authorities again then he can be charged for that.

That's how Marion Jones went to prison.
I do not know Kenyan law that well. But making false statements to police should be a crime. It is in many countries.

Technicalities aside, Njogu should be punished because at the very leasst, his behaviour brings disrepute to the nation at worst he is fraudulent. We need a deterrent for fraudsters.

sitaki.kujulikana
#100 Posted : Saturday, October 31, 2015 2:37:27 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/25/2012
Posts: 1,826
Alba wrote:
Quote:
Anyway.... from where I stand - sport offences are not criminal offences unless they are offences outside the field. Njogu the sportsman was just cheated to get to second position.


A person can indeed be arrested for offences committed on the field. Many many years ago, a Kenya army soldier playing for the Isiolo army team in the national league was arrested and sentenced for punching referee Williams Ngaah on the field after Ngaah had given him a red card.

Also Njogu blatantly lied that not only did he finish 2nd in the race, but he ran the entire 42km. Arresting him is the right step. If he lies to authorities again then he can be charged for that.

That's how Marion Jones went to prison.
I do not know Kenyan law that well. But making false statements to police should be a crime. It is in many countries.

Technicalities aside, Njogu should be punished because at the very leasst, his behaviour brings disrepute to the nation at worst he is fraudulent. We need a deterrent for fraudsters.


Seriously that's how Marion Jones went to prison ?
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