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Motion on 50% salary reduction
Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/19/2011 Posts: 1,694
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Alba wrote:Kratos wrote:
I could go on and on...Kenya is no different from any other country. We are not a special bunch anointed by anyone. Race and ethnicity are part of our nature as human beings. Unless something earth-shattering happens to change this phenomenon, the trend is more than likely to continue. Blacks in South Africa will vote black, the Yoruba will most likely vote one of their own, a muslim is most likely to be elected in a muslim dominated country, etc.
So unless you have a "ethnicometer" that qualifies your statement, your argument is invalid.
Your examples are invalid 1. Zimbabwe: The Shona form 82% of the population. So the notion of voting along tribal lines does not arise. Mugabe's primary opposition has been his fellow Shona like Tsvangirai. That is not a seriously thought through answer. Just becuase the Shona have a larger concentration of the population does not in any way make the country less prone to ethinic voting. Disaprove this statement from Wikipedia ...Quote:Ethnic rivalry between the Shona and Ndebele has played a large part in Zimbabwe's politics, a consequence of the country's borders defined by its British colonial rulers. Your argument is, since the population of one entity is small then there cannot be ethinic rivalry. If your argument was valid, interchange Zimbabwe with either Rwanda or Burundi and see if your argument is logical.2. Angola: You referenced a civil war which ended decades ago. Elections in Angola today are not as tribal as you are suggesting. Results suggest that Dos Santos received 74% of the vote. There is no evidence that the vote eas tribal. Once more you failed to do a simple google search that would show you that Angola has had only 3 elections since independence and the biggest challenge to the 2012 election was that the election was marred with claims of irregularities. Further more the main parties are a representation of ethinic groupings ie Quote:MPLA's main social base has been among the Ambundu people and the multiracial intelligentsia of cities such as Luanda, Benguela and Huambo. While UNITA's main social basis were the Ovimbundu of central Angola, who constituted about one third of the country's population, but the organisation also had roots among several less numerous peoples of eastern Angola If that is not a clear representation of ethnic voting then I dont know what is. 3. You mentioned Bosnia yet in Bosnia, the muslims for example do not vote for the same party. There are some issue oriented political parties. Again, do your research.Quote:Nearly 19 years after the end of the Bosnian conflict, which killed 100,000 people, the early results suggest that the fundamental questions over which the war was fought, national identity, ethnic distinctions and government structure, are still far from resolved. The 1995 Dayton peace agreement stopped the bloodshed but entrenched the results of “ethnic cleansing”, cementing the divide between the two halves of the country. Quote:Bosnia holds its seventh general elections on 12 October 2014. Since the end of the war, political allegiance has been usually based on ethnic identity, and divisions are still enshrined in what is possibly the world’s most complicated institutional set up Kenya is the only country I knowEXACTLY of where a person's tribe is the sole determinant of who gets elected. Other countries may have different levels of tribalism and ethnic chauvinism but when it comes to elections, Kenya is the worst. My challenge to you is to clearly and factually show which method/tool/criteria you use to reinforce your argument that "Kenya is the worst". Other countries have actually gone to internal war over ethnic rivalry while here in Kenya we are lucky to have had only skirmishes in comparison.
“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/3/2014 Posts: 1,063
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Kratos wrote:Alba wrote:Kratos wrote:
I could go on and on...Kenya is no different from any other country. We are not a special bunch anointed by anyone. Race and ethnicity are part of our nature as human beings. Unless something earth-shattering happens to change this phenomenon, the trend is more than likely to continue. Blacks in South Africa will vote black, the Yoruba will most likely vote one of their own, a muslim is most likely to be elected in a muslim dominated country, etc.
So unless you have a "ethnicometer" that qualifies your statement, your argument is invalid.
Your examples are invalid 1. Zimbabwe: The Shona form 82% of the population. So the notion of voting along tribal lines does not arise. Mugabe's primary opposition has been his fellow Shona like Tsvangirai. That is not a seriously thought through answer. Just becuase the Shona have a larger concentration of the population does not in any way make the country less prone to ethinic voting. Disaprove this statement from Wikipedia ...Quote:Ethnic rivalry between the Shona and Ndebele has played a large part in Zimbabwe's politics, a consequence of the country's borders defined by its British colonial rulers. Your argument is, since the population of one entity is small then there cannot be ethinic rivalry. If your argument was valid, interchange Zimbabwe with either Rwanda or Burundi and see if your argument is logical.2. Angola: You referenced a civil war which ended decades ago. Elections in Angola today are not as tribal as you are suggesting. Results suggest that Dos Santos received 74% of the vote. There is no evidence that the vote eas tribal. Once more you failed to do a simple google search that would show you that Angola has had only 3 elections since independence and the biggest challenge to the 2012 election was that the election was marred with claims of irregularities. Further more the main parties are a representation of ethinic groupings ie Quote:MPLA's main social base has been among the Ambundu people and the multiracial intelligentsia of cities such as Luanda, Benguela and Huambo. While UNITA's main social basis were the Ovimbundu of central Angola, who constituted about one third of the country's population, but the organisation also had roots among several less numerous peoples of eastern Angola If that is not a clear representation of ethnic voting then I dont know what is. 3. You mentioned Bosnia yet in Bosnia, the muslims for example do not vote for the same party. There are some issue oriented political parties. Again, do your research.Quote:Nearly 19 years after the end of the Bosnian conflict, which killed 100,000 people, the early results suggest that the fundamental questions over which the war was fought, national identity, ethnic distinctions and government structure, are still far from resolved. The 1995 Dayton peace agreement stopped the bloodshed but entrenched the results of “ethnic cleansing”, cementing the divide between the two halves of the country. Quote:Bosnia holds its seventh general elections on 12 October 2014. Since the end of the war, political allegiance has been usually based on ethnic identity, and divisions are still enshrined in what is possibly the world’s most complicated institutional set up Kenya is the only country I knowEXACTLY of where a person's tribe is the sole determinant of who gets elected. Other countries may have different levels of tribalism and ethnic chauvinism but when it comes to elections, Kenya is the worst. My challenge to you is to clearly and factually show which method/tool/criteria you use to reinforce your argument that "Kenya is the worst". Other countries have actually gone to internal war over ethnic rivalry while here in Kenya we are lucky to have had only skirmishes in comparison.  This fellow is just portraying ignorance. Consistency is better than intensity
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/27/2012 Posts: 2,256 Location: Bandalungwa
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I will not bother rehashing the posts above but I will emphasize one thing for those who cannot read: I did not say Kenya is the only country with ethnic strife. I said : There is no other country in Africa where elections are determined by ethnicity to the extent that Kenya is. Clearly some of you cannot read
Here is why Kenya is worse than these countries when it comes to electing leaders
Zimbabwe :
Though there is ethnic tension in Zimbabwe, support for Mugabe is not as homogenous as it is in Kenya. In fact much of the opposition to Mugabe has been from his own Shona people
In Kenya this never happens. Support for the president among his ethnic group is basically homogenous. Those who stray from the party never get any support
Angola:
Though there were irregularities in the Angolan election as you said, analysts had predicted an easy victory for the MPLA. This according to the BBC
It is indeed true that the core support for MPLA is among the ambundu people who are the second largest ethnic group. But the main reason they won is
Analysts said that despite widespread unhappiness over wealth inequalities, the MPLA had projected itself as the best guarantee of stability after the end of a 27-year civil war a decade ago, and this could undermine any opposition efforts to promote protests against the election result.
"There is that war fatigue, definitely, in the provinces," Mark Shroeder, Director of Sub-Saharan Africa Analysis at Strafor Global Intelligence, told Reuters.
In other words Angolans voted for stability not only tribe. In fact from what I am reading. stability and war fatigue were the main factors
Bosnia,
I see that you copied the first paragraph from the guardian article but but you cheekily neglected to post the second paragraph which discusses the other issues Bosnians are voting about
Since the end of the war, political allegiance has been usually based on ethnic identity. Ethnic politics will play its role in Sunday’s elections too, but there are other issues too. The debate, following protests earlier this year, has centred most on economic and social issues, allegedly corrupt politicians, stagnation and jobs - at 27.5%, the unemployment rate in Bosnia is consistently among the highest in the Balkans. The employment rate remains below 40%, and two-thirds of young people are jobless. Meanwhile, the salary of lawmakers is six times the country’s average wage - a rarely lopsided difference, making Bosnia’s MPs, relatively speaking, among the richest in Europe.
So Bosnians are also voting on issues like unemployment, corruption, and high politician salaries. These are things that Kenyans are incapable of doing. So clearly Kenya is worse than Bosnia when it comes to tribal voting
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