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New constitution - Kadhi courts?
nostoppingthis
#1 Posted : Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:26:06 AM
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Joined: 8/24/2009
Posts: 5,909
Location: Nairobi
Constitution Must Treat All Religions Equally
A Commentary by Pete Ondeng and Peter Waiyaki

The public discourse on whether or not the Kadhi Courts should be included in the constitution has been wrongly interpreted by many to be a Christian vs Muslim affair. The often uninformed rhetoric by hard liners on both sides of the argument adds an unnecessary and potentially explosive element to the already charged political atmosphere.

The issue here is not about religion, but about the constitution. The move to change the current constitution springs from an acknowledgement by most people that there are wrongs in the document that need to be made right. There are some basic rights, for instance, that the original constitution did not address, and which need to be enshrined in the new document.

Similarly, there were some provisions that were included by those who negotiated the Lancaster House document that no longer hold water and need to be scrapped.
The Parliamentary Select Committee (PSC) retreat in Naivasha, which was expected by many to degenerate into an ODM vs PNU muscle-flexing contest, pleasantly surprised the nation by reaching consensus on almost all of the so-called contentious issues.

In regard to the Kadhi Courts, however, the PSC missed the point and actually went astray. Curiously, the draft constitution that emerged from that retreat omitted a simple but critical phrase that had appeared in all the many draft constitutions that have been produced since the first one in 2002. All previous versions of the Draft Constitution have consistently stated categorically that “State and religion will be separate, there will be no state religion and that all religions will be treated equally. These provisions have now been removed, leaving only that There Will Be No State Religion. Most people are not aware that this small but significant change was made in Naivasha.

Why was this phrase removed, and what would be the significance of its absence in the constitution? The only logical conclusion would be that the new constitution does not acknowledge all religions as equal. The Constitution enunciates equality for all citizens. Further it provides that nobody shall be discriminated against by reason of their religion, among other things. Unfortunately, the Kadhi courts are themselves an institutionalization of inequality. They seek to favour one religion over others by creating and protecting and providing for state funding of a purely religious system of dispute resolution.

One of the central arguments from those who advocate for Kadhi courts to be included in the constitution is that the courts have been in the constitution since independence. This is very true. The courts did not accidentally end up in the constitution but were a part of the negotiations between Jomo Kenyatta and the Sultan of Zanzibar which led to the 10 mile coastal strip being incorporated into the Republic of Kenya at independence.

However, these historical reasons and context no longer apply. What was then a
concession to a small part of the country and a very small part of the population has now become a demand and a right applicable to the whole country

Excluding the Kadhi courts from the new constitution would not in any way hinder the rights of Muslims to worship Allah or to establish courts and other mechanism of dispute resolution. The role of the Kadhi as a religious office will remain intact, organized and funded by the Muslim community, in the same way as other religions will be required to fund their own activities.

The only effect of not including the courts in the constitution would be that, like for all other religions, there would be no funding using tax payers money, and the offices for Kadhis would be recognized rightly as religious offices, and not government office. Most importantly, the draft constitution that will soon be presented to Kenyans for a referendum must include the important clause removed by the PSC: that all religions will be treated equally.

Pete Ondeng is a development economist & author of Africa’s Moment; Peter Waiyaki is an advocate of the High Court of Kenya
nostoppingthis attached the following image(s):
constitution.jpg (6kb) downloaded 2 time(s).
nostoppingthis
#2 Posted : Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:53:24 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/24/2009
Posts: 5,909
Location: Nairobi
How does one attach the powerpoint of this message? It might be easier than to read...
radio
#3 Posted : Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:12:13 AM
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Joined: 11/9/2009
Posts: 2,003
@nostoppingthis... all religions are equal
nostoppingthis
#4 Posted : Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:18:05 AM
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Joined: 8/24/2009
Posts: 5,909
Location: Nairobi
@ radio, the why the deletion of those 3 very important clauses? "state and religion are separate", "no state religion" and "religions will be treated equally". In the current state(of the proposed constitution), isn't govt mandated to fund the kadhi's court with tax payer money? If the religions are equal, why is one being entrenched in the constitution?
selah
#5 Posted : Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:14:28 AM
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Joined: 10/13/2009
Posts: 1,950
Location: in kenya
I dont see anything wrong with having Kadhi courts.This was a gentlemans agreement which I belive should be respected by everyone irrespective of the cost.kenyatta had an opportunity to scrap this gentlemans agreement but he didnt so what makes us so special that we would nagate from this agreement.

Secondly by enshrining this agreement in the constituiton it ensured that pple like the writers who have a passion for discriminating against a minority do not get a chance of doing so.

I belive the constitution should protect the interest of the majority as well as minority .

Now, if the magistrate courts attend to divorce proceedings of major religions of this country i.e christians,hindu and traditionist why is it a problem to have one serving our muslim brothers?
'......to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.' Colossians 2:2-3
bwenyenye
#6 Posted : Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:43:52 AM
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Joined: 5/24/2007
Posts: 1,805
@selah

I am not against Kadhi's courts at all. I have lived with muslims all my life. Those who are keen on their faith are very good people to live with. I just wonder why I should fund their court system. Yet I get nothing from those courts.Why then should I not fund the Hindu Monk or better still have the taxpayer fund my church priest or clan elder who also performs the same functions in my faith. Other than the funding bit, which from this perspective is discriminitory, I have not much problem with the Kadhi's Courts. The issue of removal of certain clauses to me sounds like 'trying to handle perception implications' Things that are neither here nor there..

'Now, if the magistrate courts attend to divorce proceedings of major religions of this country i.e christians,hindu and traditionist why is it a problem to have one serving our muslim brothers? ' WHy can't they use the same with the rest?
I Think Therefore I Am
selah
#7 Posted : Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:18:19 AM
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Joined: 10/13/2009
Posts: 1,950
Location: in kenya
@bwenyenye
look at it this way, kadhi courts are specialised magistrates court that deals with issues that a minority in this country hold dear.Whats wrong with that.And to make it even more interesting it deals with family law which differs alot with other religion.
'......to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.' Colossians 2:2-3
Wa_ithaka
#8 Posted : Thursday, March 11, 2010 1:08:57 PM
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Joined: 1/7/2010
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Location: nbi
Whats wrong with muslims? Every freeaking country they go to, they try to change the law to suit them. Kwani do you go to someone's house and ask him to change his wife?
So should we be having different courts for every religion including the famous finger of God?
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
bwenyenye
#9 Posted : Thursday, March 11, 2010 1:23:57 PM
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Joined: 5/24/2007
Posts: 1,805
@selah

You rightly say 'kadhi courts are specialised magistrates court that deals with issues that a minority in this country hold dear.'

So my question still remains; 'Why should I fund their religious activity?'and secondly, why should the state then not fund others?

This provision in the constitution is discriminatory against all other Kenyans yet the Constitution is clear that there should be no discrimination on the basis of gender, religion etc
I Think Therefore I Am
nostoppingthis
#10 Posted : Friday, March 12, 2010 5:41:14 AM
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Joined: 8/24/2009
Posts: 5,909
Location: Nairobi
@ selah, i think you are missing the point here. Kadhi courts have been there since 1963;essentially it was only to serve the coastal strip, however, this changed with time and it has been included in the constitution. That said, bwenyeye has the valid point of funding the Muslim faith through the Kadhi's courts using the taxpayer's money(Christians still being a majority for now...only time will tell), heck it has the possibility of funding the pilgrimage.
The Kadhi's court as it is in the current constitution is not totally "bad". However, those 3 clauses that have been changed in the proposed constitution will without doubt have an impact..why the change?...You remember also that the churches have a pending court case against Kadhi's courts in the constitution..this has been pending since 2004
thuks
#11 Posted : Thursday, March 25, 2010 4:21:20 PM
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Joined: 10/8/2008
Posts: 1,575
did you know that pple who use the kadhi's courts also pay taxes which pay the magistrates that hear matters emanating from the activities of all other religions?
I care!
anasazi
#12 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 7:58:48 AM
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Joined: 6/8/2007
Posts: 675
Basically I read something sinister in this whole kadhis courts issue. Why do taxpayers have to fund them? This and the abortion issue may make me throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Form is temporary, class is permanent
kingfisher
#13 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 4:23:33 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/9/2008
Posts: 2,824
Someone sent me this. Let your pastor/priest/reverend/bishop read it and understand the full meaning of recognizing any religion in a constitution.

http://www.mediafire.com...0and%20Kenyan%20Law.pdf
When I have money, I get rid of it quickly, lest it find a way into my heart.
nanfor1
#14 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 10:10:01 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
There is nothing I hate more than a racist and a bigot to boot.

All of you here were born when Kenya had a Kadhis court. I wonder how many of you were forced to become muslim.

Ati you pay taxes? Muslims also pay taxes and I doubt if they want their family law to be judged by one Uniter Kidula.

All this holabaloo caused by christian fundamentalists who only show up when things are rosy. Why not use the same vitriol to house the IDP's? Most of them christians by the way.

However there is an option for the danderheads in this forum.

Reject the new constitution.

The result will be using the current constitution which STILL has a Kadhis court.

As for the stupid men who have the audacity to talk about abortion.....Let me not go there.

When a man talks about abortion especially a catholic priest who has never had sex ( unless with boys), it just makes me wanna puke!
Hata wakizima taa
aemathenge
#15 Posted : Monday, March 29, 2010 7:43:33 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/18/2008
Posts: 3,434
Location: Kerugoya
Abortion will take place. Tupende tusipende. Legal or not leagal.

The cost of having Coast Province as part of Kenya was having the Kadhi Courts in our Constitution. So no Kadhi Courts, no Coast Province.

Taxation. Mental institutions are paid for from our taxes. So why should your money be used for them yet you do patronize them?

Convince me I am wrong.
the sage
#16 Posted : Monday, March 29, 2010 7:51:38 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/20/2008
Posts: 367
All religions are not equal and I have no qualms about that. Take the law which is based on Western law which is structured on Christanity.
Polygamy is oulawed,alchohol, meat are allowed. So would our Muslim brothers would say and rightly so that the law is bias because they are allowed to marry up to four wives.
The Hindu's should also be incensed at the abomination of nyama and kuku choma.
So, the the Kadhi's courts be.
tony stark
#17 Posted : Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:22:39 AM
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Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
Wa_ithaka wrote:
Whats wrong with muslims? Every freeaking country they go to, they try to change the law to suit them. Kwani do you go to someone's house and ask him to change his wife?

Thank you for giving me a hearty laugh. Your myopia is impressive!
Whats wrong with christians cause they also convert people everywhere they go. All religions have a basic urge to grow and this is mainly through conversion.
What would your great grand father say about "white" christians who told him his religion was wrong or do you still worship Mt kirinyaga??
Wa_ithaka
#18 Posted : Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:29:57 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
Starkers-pot calling the kettle...FYI, yes I do worship mwene nyaga...
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
first body
#19 Posted : Tuesday, March 30, 2010 5:10:21 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 16
The current constitution has a lot of christian faith influence. The people complaining about Kadhis court funding is a null argument. Even if the courts are removed from the constitution they shall still be funded by tax payers who include muslims through and act of parliament or something!
By the way not all churches are against the Kadhis court it is mainly wanjiru and other money tv based evangelicals who bitterly oppose it. NB: THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OF KENYA IS NOT AGAINST THE KADHIS COURT IN THE CONSTITUTION.
@ Wa_ithaka i agree with Tony you are myopic and from your last post also petty small minded person!
the sage
#20 Posted : Wednesday, March 31, 2010 6:03:54 AM
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Joined: 11/20/2008
Posts: 367
@ Tony and First body, at least now Waithaka can widen his Ken.
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