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Christianity Versus Education
Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:
Clearly, what we have here is a 'disagreement' of ideas and concepts. That's to be expected of humans because each human, based on his experience has his own belief structure and belief dynamics.
What I can assure you is that one can't talk or know of something if it's not an idea in the mind.
How, when and why ideas change is an issue that may be beyond the scope of this thread. But at least I have shared a perspective whose usefulness and explanatory power is enough to facilitate survival and mutual coexistence of the human species irrespective of difference in faith and creed.
You can't assure anyone of anything. You are just sharing your views on the nature of existence based on your limited ideas and concepts. The idea that you are rejecting is that God is not an idea and may actually exist. You are simply sharing your beliefs and 'chest thumping' about the it's power and benefits.I believe you called this nonsense. An idea may exist. 'tycho' is an idea, 'tycho' exists. I can assure you of some things; like all ideas exist in the mind. There's no chest thumping there. I don't deny that the idea you can assure anyone of anything exists in your mind. The same way you are sharing your ideas,beliefs and their benefits is the same way others have shared theirs using ideas,concepts and beliefs. That's true! Chest thumping.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:
Clearly, what we have here is a 'disagreement' of ideas and concepts. That's to be expected of humans because each human, based on his experience has his own belief structure and belief dynamics.
What I can assure you is that one can't talk or know of something if it's not an idea in the mind.
How, when and why ideas change is an issue that may be beyond the scope of this thread. But at least I have shared a perspective whose usefulness and explanatory power is enough to facilitate survival and mutual coexistence of the human species irrespective of difference in faith and creed.
You can't assure anyone of anything. You are just sharing your views on the nature of existence based on your limited ideas and concepts. The idea that you are rejecting is that God is not an idea and may actually exist. You are simply sharing your beliefs and 'chest thumping' about the it's power and benefits.I believe you called this nonsense. An idea may exist. 'tycho' is an idea, 'tycho' exists. I can assure you of some things; like all ideas exist in the mind. There's no chest thumping there. I don't deny that the idea you can assure anyone of anything exists in your mind. The same way you are sharing your ideas,beliefs and their benefits is the same way others have shared theirs using ideas,concepts and beliefs. That's true! Chest thumping. I'd not want this encounter to turn into argumenta ad hominem. So can I ask for leave to reflect on what we've shared? I have no doubt that there are some ideas that need to be restructured (even that of chest thumping). Your ideas and concepts and beliefs have been most significant to me. And I don't deem mine to be better than anybody else's.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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There are at least 3 ideas/ concepts here:
1. The idea that God doesn't exist
2. The idea that God isn't an idea
3. The idea that God is an abstract idea.
For all these I can find situation where each is true. Truth here being; consistent with other established concepts/plans, usable for forming new concepts/plans that help me meet my goals as an intelligent agent.
Therefore I accept all of these ideas. In fact, I can accept all ideas, even if they are apparently contradictory.
In fact, I realize that my approach to other 'mindsets' has been 'untrue'! Any belief system can accept any idea.
So, @¿, I accept your idea that God isn't an idea.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/22/2015 Posts: 682
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The conversation between Tycho and Mr. Question Mark is a shining example of how arguments meander when neither side has evidence for their claims. How about the two of you exchange emails and continue your pseudo intellectual banter there?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Mike Ock wrote:The conversation between Tycho and Mr. Question Mark is a shining example of how arguments meander when neither side has evidence for their claims. How about the two of you exchange emails and continue your pseudo intellectual banter there? I think every idea has evidence to support it. The idea source. So what other evidence would you want? Or would you also want to exchange your email address?
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/22/2015 Posts: 682
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@masukuma you may be right that religion is a tool for control, but those are not its origins. The reason religion cropped up in every society on earth was because of a need to understand this world we live in. Humans have a natural tendency to ask WHO did this, rather than WHAT did this, hence our world was explained by early societies using all the various gods you see around.
Eventually people realised how far others were willing to bend their minds in the name of their god, and thus the opium use case emerged.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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Mike Ock wrote:The conversation between Tycho and Mr. Question Mark is a shining example of how arguments meander when neither side has evidence for their claims. How about the two of you exchange emails and continue your pseudo intellectual banter there? Exactly. Some ideas and views are more 'equal' than others. I'll leave it at that.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Mike Ock wrote:@masukuma you may be right that religion is a tool for control, but those are not its origins. The reason religion cropped up in every society on earth was because of a need to understand this world we live in. Humans have a natural tendency to ask WHO did this, rather than WHAT did this, hence our world was explained by early societies using all the various gods you see around.
Eventually people realised how far others were willing to bend their minds in the name of their god, and thus the opium use case emerged. And WHAT evidence is there for this assertion? And how can we know the evidence is 'true'? For example you haven't shown how you concluded that the ancients asked more of WHO than WHAT. I don't think the conversation has meandered in any way. Like so far, we have evidence of three apparently different ideas interacting. They have provided an opportunity for us to see how a belief system can interact with a stream of 'new' ideas - like in Christianity versus 'Education'. Or the correlation between lowering of belief and increase of information or knowledge in a system.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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There are many ways of getting or providing education. For example, there's the 'banking' method where the student goes through a prescribed syllabus and has to know whatever has been prescribed and prove it through a test. And there's a 'constructivist' approach where the student is encouraged to solve his own questions using the syllabus.
So my question is, does, or would faith dwindle in the same way if both education methods are compared? What if the 'problem' is in the education?
A faulty education process can still have valid IQ tests and results!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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Mike Ock wrote:@masukuma you may be right that religion is a tool for control, but those are not its origins. The reason religion cropped up in every society on earth was because of a need to understand this world we live in. Humans have a natural tendency to ask WHO did this, rather than WHAT did this, hence our world was explained by early societies using all the various gods you see around.
Eventually people realised how far others were willing to bend their minds in the name of their god, and thus the opium use case emerged. I believe my words were ORGANIZED RELIGION not just RELIGION. I suspect Religion has been with humans for as long as they have walked the surface of this rocky planet however it was important to have a common religion when building society for reasons I attempted to illustrate. I agree with tycho on that Gap thing he and the Mr Inverted Question mark were describing. Even the most religious among us don't believe in exactly the same way they believed when they were young! simple things as demons and diseases.... at one point all diseases were demonic but now... only mental diseases are demonic why? we have filled in the gap for the rest. Once we fill in the gap with FACTS majority of the humans move on but like the bell curve there are some nutcases like the "International Flat Earth Research Society" who will still hang on to dear past possibly because humans also have another weakness - BEING SEEN TO BE CONSISTENT! humans want to be seen as consistent all through! this is a societal pressure more than it is a human mind attribute. The words by Tycho were profound! in future..."What will we need to pray for?" (I tried searching for them in wazua over and over but cannot find them). We are understanding explaining most things -"What will we need to pray for?" On my end: I pray for my kids!... I pray that I am around to see them grow up and become useful members of society. Not sure what else I pray for! Some people are now sharpening their knives... simply because I HAVE TO BE CONSISTENT... no... I don't! try and wrap your head around that for a while... I don't...at least I don't chose to please society by being consistent! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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masukuma wrote:Mike Ock wrote:@masukuma you may be right that religion is a tool for control, but those are not its origins. The reason religion cropped up in every society on earth was because of a need to understand this world we live in. Humans have a natural tendency to ask WHO did this, rather than WHAT did this, hence our world was explained by early societies using all the various gods you see around.
Eventually people realised how far others were willing to bend their minds in the name of their god, and thus the opium use case emerged. I believe my words were ORGANIZED RELIGION not just RELIGION. I suspect Religion has been with humans for as long as they have walked the surface of this rocky planet however it was important to have a common religion when building society for reasons I attempted to illustrate. I agree with tycho on that Gap thing he and the Mr Inverted Question mark were describing. Even the most religious among us don't believe in exactly the same way they believed when they were young! simple things as demons and diseases.... at one point all diseases were demonic but now... only mental diseases are demonic why? we have filled in the gap for the rest. Once we fill in the gap with FACTS majority of the humans move on but like the bell curve there are some nutcases like the "International Flat Earth Research Society" who will still hang on to dear past possibly because humans also have another weakness - BEING SEEN TO BE CONSISTENT! humans want to be seen as consistent all through! this is a societal pressure more than it is a human mind attribute.The words by Tycho were profound! in future..."What will we need to pray for?" (I tried searching for them in wazua over and over but cannot find them). We are understanding explaining most things -"What will we need to pray for?" On my end: I pray for my kids!... I pray that I am around to see them grow up and become useful members of society. Not sure what else I pray for! Some people are now sharpening their knives... simply because I HAVE TO BE CONSISTENT... no... I don't! try and wrap your head around that for a while... I don't...at least I don't chose to please society by being consistent! 
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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@Tycho... the best explanation I have ever heard of the "mind' is that it's a formatting of the brain! a brain taught by it's environment - that is why kids say the darnest things! Did anyone watch JKL the other day with that young acrobatic girl? She put Jeff on the spot! My toddler sister once told off my dearly departed grand ma - she said she smelled badly! (Coz of all the smoke cooking she did) lol! She interpreted stimuli and called it what it was ... bad smell... emanating from THIS PERSON. Of course she was "trained" not to say such things to people by society and "common sense". Same brain later in life would smell the same smell from the same person and ignore it - why? The brain had been formatted. So the brain learns (the learnt things are the 'mind' if you ask me...). Does a new born have a 'mind'? or is a new born's brain 'tabula rasa'? I think not... they learn things even when they are in their mother's wombs! they learn her voice! they listen to music and get calm (mine seemed to like contemporary folk rock). All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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This topic - or a variant of it - has been the object of my meditation for the last few weeks. And in all this labor I realize that my argument and thinking hasn't been entirely consistent. Consistency has been an issue in my life, and it's only recently that I have started to learn to 'forgive' and accept my inconsistencies. Not that consistency is unachievable, or undesirable, but is the result of work. I call it 're-engineering' of the self. This thread is awfully important to me, in the sense it provides a link to other 'minds', and space to test my belief system, and try to see how it works to facilitate this re-engineering.
I was born in a Christian context, and growing up I realized that I desired a change of 'inner experience' or 'mind', and that my religion didn't seem to be so conducive for such a change. If I have any education, then that education has been focused mainly towards this objective.
I don't go to church, and I haven't had a desire to go to church. But interestingly I've had numerous dreams about Church. I have something that looks like a prayer- I actually command 'the mind' to execute certain tasks, describe desired outcomes then I say 'amen'. I read all sorts of Scripture, and relish the 'wisdom' I find there. I believe Mohammed is a true prophet, yet I also believe that Islam is a belief system like any other- amenable to change for example.
My most treasured spiritual practice is yoga. I also love voo-doo. Kinjeketile was a voo-dooistic priest, and I keep on saying he's my hero because I usually identify with his reasoning and actions during the uprising.
To keep my mind fit I use Buddhist training- training in the seven pillars. Of late 'Brahmacharya' has been my obsession; In Christian terms, it means 'walking with God'.
I believe and use the scientific method; yet I also believe in revelation- I have actually experienced 'revelations'- I have had 'schizophrenic' episodes.
Now and then I ask myself, 'do I believe in God? Or do I not? And I always tell myself 'it depends on what I mean by 'God'. I prefer 'The mind' to 'God' because I've had a vision of it. And later verified it via the scientific method. Even now I'm executing a test of a hypothesis about 'The Mind'.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:@Tycho... the best explanation I have ever heard of the "mind' is that it's a formatting of the brain! a brain taught by it's environment - that is why kids say the darnest things! Did anyone watch JKL the other day with that young acrobatic girl? She put Jeff on the spot! My toddler sister once told off my dearly departed grand ma - she said she smelled badly! (Coz of all the smoke cooking she did) lol! She interpreted stimuli and called it what it was ... bad smell... emanating from THIS PERSON. Of course she was "trained" not to say such things to people by society and "common sense". Same brain later in life would smell the same smell from the same person and ignore it - why? The brain had been formatted. So the brain learns (the learnt things are the 'mind' if you ask me...). Does a new born have a 'mind'? or is a new born's brain 'tabula rasa'? I think not... they learn things even when they are in their mother's wombs! they learn her voice! they listen to music and get calm (mine seemed to like contemporary folk rock). I get what you're saying. I've tried to follow the child from the womb outwards, and a conclusion I've come to draw is that the child is a product of the mind states of the Parents and the surrounding environment and that's when I started on tracing a logical trail to 'The Mind' being an external entity with respect to individual 'tranceivers'. That's where the 'formatting' comes in. Of late I have been 'formatting' my brain and whole body.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 6/23/2014 Posts: 1,652
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tycho wrote:This topic - or a variant of it - has been the object of my meditation for the last few weeks. And in all this labor I realize that my argument and thinking hasn't been entirely consistent. Consistency has been an issue in my life, and it's only recently that I have started to learn to 'forgive' and accept my inconsistencies. Not that consistency is unachievable, or undesirable, but is the result of work. I call it 're-engineering' of the self. This thread is awfully important to me, in the sense it provides a link to other 'minds', and space to test my belief system, and try to see how it works to facilitate this re-engineering.
I was born in a Christian context, and growing up I realized that I desired a change of 'inner experience' or 'mind', and that my religion didn't seem to be so conducive for such a change. If I have any education, then that education has been focused mainly towards this objective.
I don't go to church, and I haven't had a desire to go to church. But interestingly I've had numerous dreams about Church. I have something that looks like a prayer- I actually command 'the mind' to execute certain tasks, describe desired outcomes then I say 'amen'. I read all sorts of Scripture, and relish the 'wisdom' I find there. I believe Mohammed is a true prophet, yet I also believe that Islam is a belief system like any other- amenable to change for example.
My most treasured spiritual practice is yoga. I also love voo-doo. Kinjeketile was a voo-dooistic priest, and I keep on saying he's my hero because I usually identify with his reasoning and actions during the uprising.
To keep my mind fit I use Buddhist training- training in the seven pillars. Of late 'Brahmacharya' has been my obsession; In Christian terms, it means 'walking with God'.
I believe and use the scientific method; yet I also believe in revelation- I have actually experienced 'revelations'- I have had 'schizophrenic' episodes.
Now and then I ask myself, 'do I believe in God? Or do I not? And I always tell myself 'it depends on what I mean by 'God'. I prefer 'The mind' to 'God' because I've had a vision of it. And later verified it via the scientific method. Even now I'm executing a test of a hypothesis about 'The Mind'.
Hata mimi napenda sana Voodoo.Kwanza smirnoff  Hutia Mundu!!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:Consistency has been an issue in my life, and it's only recently that I have started to learn to 'forgive' and accept my inconsistencies. Not that consistency is unachievable, or undesirable, but is the result of work.
This is the secret to serenity!! accepting that you are fallible and that you know more today than you did yesterday and that positions you took yesterday were informed by the information you had yesterday..... heck... this whole conversation can be rubbish tomorrow based on what we learn tomorrow!! We may discover we were 'silly'/'ignorant'/'shortsighted' to have been saying and holding the positions we have held... but the worst thing we can do is hold on a position due to society's pressure to remain consistent with our less informed dated selves... that would be to me 'self delusion' All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,328 Location: Masada
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¿ wrote:masukuma wrote:Mike Ock wrote:@masukuma you may be right that religion is a tool for control, but those are not its origins. The reason religion cropped up in every society on earth was because of a need to understand this world we live in. Humans have a natural tendency to ask WHO did this, rather than WHAT did this, hence our world was explained by early societies using all the various gods you see around.
Eventually people realised how far others were willing to bend their minds in the name of their god, and thus the opium use case emerged. I believe my words were ORGANIZED RELIGION not just RELIGION. I suspect Religion has been with humans for as long as they have walked the surface of this rocky planet however it was important to have a common religion when building society for reasons I attempted to illustrate. I agree with tycho on that Gap thing he and the Mr Inverted Question mark were describing. Even the most religious among us don't believe in exactly the same way they believed when they were young! simple things as demons and diseases.... at one point all diseases were demonic but now... only mental diseases are demonic why? we have filled in the gap for the rest. Once we fill in the gap with FACTS majority of the humans move on but like the bell curve there are some nutcases like the "International Flat Earth Research Society" who will still hang on to dear past possibly because humans also have another weakness - BEING SEEN TO BE CONSISTENT! humans want to be seen as consistent all through! this is a societal pressure more than it is a human mind attribute.The words by Tycho were profound! in future..."What will we need to pray for?" (I tried searching for them in wazua over and over but cannot find them). We are understanding explaining most things -"What will we need to pray for?" On my end: I pray for my kids!... I pray that I am around to see them grow up and become useful members of society. Not sure what else I pray for! Some people are now sharpening their knives... simply because I HAVE TO BE CONSISTENT... no... I don't! try and wrap your head around that for a while... I don't...at least I don't chose to please society by being consistent! IS this the same @masukuma who hacked IEBC server and stole @Bupamba's votes? I didn't know he was this good minded...ama ni plagiarism full scale?  Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/11/2012 Posts: 5,222
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masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:Consistency has been an issue in my life, and it's only recently that I have started to learn to 'forgive' and accept my inconsistencies. Not that consistency is unachievable, or undesirable, but is the result of work.
This is the secret to serenity!! accepting that you are fallible and that you know more today than you did yesterday and that positions you took yesterday were informed by the information you had yesterday..... heck... this whole conversation can be rubbish tomorrow based on what we learn tomorrow!! We may discover we were 'silly'/'ignorant'/'shortsighted' to have been saying and holding the positions we have held... but the worst thing we can do is hold on a position due to society's pressure to remain consistent with our less informed dated selves... that would be to me 'self delusion' Kale come back to Church! Looking into the abyss is doing you no good, now that I see it looking back at you. Rudi Church 
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