Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Life
»
Christianity Versus Education
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
¿ wrote:tycho wrote:@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.
Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.
I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning. Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence. Science doesn't know if God exists. Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept. God is an abstract concept of course.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
|
tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.
Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.
I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning. Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence. Science doesn't know if God exists. Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept. God is an abstract concept of course. And that is an assumption.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.
Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.
I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning. Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence. Science doesn't know if God exists. Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept. God is an abstract concept of course. And that is an assumption. Assumption entails abstraction. The moment one uses language, or a symbol, or experiences, there must be abstraction. Even 'knowing' is abstraction.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
|
tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.
Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.
I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning. Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence. Science doesn't know if God exists. Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept. God is an abstract concept of course. And that is an assumption. Assumption entails abstraction. The moment one uses language, or a symbol, or experiences, there must be abstraction. Even 'knowing' is abstraction. In other words,you don't 'know' but you 'believe' God doesn't exist and from that belief you give meaning to experience. An educated theist can 'believe' God exists and from that belief give meaning to experience.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.
Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.
I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning. Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence. Science doesn't know if God exists. Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept. God is an abstract concept of course. And that is an assumption. Assumption entails abstraction. The moment one uses language, or a symbol, or experiences, there must be abstraction. Even 'knowing' is abstraction. In other words,you don't 'know' but you 'believe' God doesn't exist and from that belief you give meaning to experience. An educated theist can 'believe' God exists and from that belief give meaning to experience. Don't forget that 'knowledge' entails abstraction. Knowledge and belief systems are merely tools to give meaning to experience.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
|
tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.
Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.
I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning. Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence. Science doesn't know if God exists. Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept. God is an abstract concept of course. And that is an assumption. Assumption entails abstraction. The moment one uses language, or a symbol, or experiences, there must be abstraction. Even 'knowing' is abstraction. In other words,you don't 'know' but you 'believe' God doesn't exist and from that belief you give meaning to experience. An educated theist can 'believe' God exists and from that belief give meaning to experience. Don't forget that 'knowledge' entails abstraction. Knowledge and belief systems are merely tools to give meaning to experience. Abstraction does not mean God is an abstract concept or God doesn't exist. That is a gap you have filled with belief. Based on assumptions you are giving meaning to knowledge,belief systems and God in a manner that reflects your beliefs.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
@¿, I will try to show you how 'God' is abstract, and how 'he' is a concept. Then I'll show how 'belief' is related to abstract concepts.
'God' is a noun. Nouns represent specific things. 'Things' imply 'identification' and 'seperation'; but how is 'identification' and 'seperation' possible? How does one know 'it' is a 'cup'? There must be some structure and function associated with it. That structure and function doesn't reside in the 'it'. If you break 'it' the structure and function remains, but where is this structure and function? In the mind. The mind? Where's the mind? 'Things' in the mind include 'ideas' and associations of 'ideas'. Structure and function entail ideas and association of ideas- what we know as concepts, and concepts entail abstraction.
Therefore, identification and differentiation entails abstraction and conceptualization. All nouns are abstract concepts. 'tycho' is an abstract concept.
Let's test this assertion. Moses the prophet wants to see God. But God isn't in the thunder. . . in the end, God is, 'I am who I am'. Beyond instantiation - only possible via conceptualization.
Belief is basically using concepts and ideas to prescribed effects. Belief, as you pointed out, is for filling gaps. Gaps imply states, and states, experience. Belief transforms experience; and at the same time experience transforms belief. Meaning emerges from this process.
There's something else. The most energetic forms of matter are removed from definite forms and are almost random statistical configurations- abstract concepts.
Other animals have no linguistic capacity because they can't create abstract concepts. The power of abstraction and conceptualization is 'mystical'. The mind isn't visible. How powerful is it?
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2009 Posts: 8,083 Location: Enk are Nyirobi
|
In the words of a professor ideas.ted.com/why-humans-run-the-world/ Life is short. Live passionately.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
|
@tycho - Let me clarify, I am talking about the existence of God. You are talking about an idea of God. This idea is shaped by your beliefs,the assumptions they rely on and the meaning you give existence. On that level God is an abstract concept but that does not mean God does not exist.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
¿ wrote:@tycho - Let me clarify, I am talking about the existence of God. You are talking about an idea of God. This idea is shaped by your beliefs,the assumptions they rely on and the meaning you give existence. On that level God is an abstract concept but that does not mean God does not exist. One can only talk of ideas and concepts. And beliefs. That's as far as talk can go. One can only clarify ideas and concepts. This is the limit I suspect you haven't appreciated.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
|
tycho wrote:¿ wrote:@tycho - Let me clarify, I am talking about the existence of God. You are talking about an idea of God. This idea is shaped by your beliefs,the assumptions they rely on and the meaning you give existence. On that level God is an abstract concept but that does not mean God does not exist. One can only talk of ideas and concepts. And beliefs. That's as far as talk can go. One can only clarify ideas and concepts. This is the limit I suspect you haven't appreciated. Not at all. I simply saying the limits of our ideas and concepts do not determine the existence and nature of God.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:@tycho - Let me clarify, I am talking about the existence of God. You are talking about an idea of God. This idea is shaped by your beliefs,the assumptions they rely on and the meaning you give existence. On that level God is an abstract concept but that does not mean God does not exist. One can only talk of ideas and concepts. And beliefs. That's as far as talk can go. One can only clarify ideas and concepts. This is the limit I suspect you haven't appreciated. Not at all. I simply saying the limits of our ideas and concepts do not determine the existence and nature of God. As long as there's a symbol, or entity then there's a concept and idea. So what you're basically saying is that, 'there can be no determination of concepts using other concepts' and that's not true! Non concepts go with non expression. Silence. Formlessness. But words create. Existence is purely in the domain of words.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
|
tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:@tycho - Let me clarify, I am talking about the existence of God. You are talking about an idea of God. This idea is shaped by your beliefs,the assumptions they rely on and the meaning you give existence. On that level God is an abstract concept but that does not mean God does not exist. One can only talk of ideas and concepts. And beliefs. That's as far as talk can go. One can only clarify ideas and concepts. This is the limit I suspect you haven't appreciated. Not at all. I simply saying the limits of our ideas and concepts do not determine the existence and nature of God. As long as there's a symbol, or entity then there's a concept and idea. So what you're basically saying is that, 'there can be no determination of concepts using other concepts' and that's not true! Non concepts go with non expression. Silence. Formlessness. But words create. Existence is purely in the domain of words. Perhaps you can't appreciate the idea that God exists with or without our existence and beyond the limits of our ideas and concepts.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:@tycho - Let me clarify, I am talking about the existence of God. You are talking about an idea of God. This idea is shaped by your beliefs,the assumptions they rely on and the meaning you give existence. On that level God is an abstract concept but that does not mean God does not exist. One can only talk of ideas and concepts. And beliefs. That's as far as talk can go. One can only clarify ideas and concepts. This is the limit I suspect you haven't appreciated. Not at all. I simply saying the limits of our ideas and concepts do not determine the existence and nature of God. As long as there's a symbol, or entity then there's a concept and idea. So what you're basically saying is that, 'there can be no determination of concepts using other concepts' and that's not true! Non concepts go with non expression. Silence. Formlessness. But words create. Existence is purely in the domain of words. Perhaps you can't appreciate the idea that God exists with or without our existence and beyond the limits of our ideas and concepts. It's possible to appreciate this last proposition you've made in the context of ideas and concepts. The limit to it is that if there was absolutely no human or creatures with similar linguistic capacity, then the situation you're talking about would absolutely not exist.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
|
tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:@tycho - Let me clarify, I am talking about the existence of God. You are talking about an idea of God. This idea is shaped by your beliefs,the assumptions they rely on and the meaning you give existence. On that level God is an abstract concept but that does not mean God does not exist. One can only talk of ideas and concepts. And beliefs. That's as far as talk can go. One can only clarify ideas and concepts. This is the limit I suspect you haven't appreciated. Not at all. I simply saying the limits of our ideas and concepts do not determine the existence and nature of God. As long as there's a symbol, or entity then there's a concept and idea. So what you're basically saying is that, 'there can be no determination of concepts using other concepts' and that's not true! Non concepts go with non expression. Silence. Formlessness. But words create. Existence is purely in the domain of words. Perhaps you can't appreciate the idea that God exists with or without our existence and beyond the limits of our ideas and concepts. It's possible to appreciate this last proposition you've made in the context of ideas and concepts. The limit to it is that if there was absolutely no human or creatures with similar linguistic capacity, then the situation you're talking about would absolutely not exist. The idea is God is not an idea. God may or may not exist or lies somewhere in between but that situation is independent of the limits our ideas and concepts. Your views on the nature of existence and how that determines the existence and nature of God do not limit or determine the existence and nature of God.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:@tycho - Let me clarify, I am talking about the existence of God. You are talking about an idea of God. This idea is shaped by your beliefs,the assumptions they rely on and the meaning you give existence. On that level God is an abstract concept but that does not mean God does not exist. One can only talk of ideas and concepts. And beliefs. That's as far as talk can go. One can only clarify ideas and concepts. This is the limit I suspect you haven't appreciated. Not at all. I simply saying the limits of our ideas and concepts do not determine the existence and nature of God. As long as there's a symbol, or entity then there's a concept and idea. So what you're basically saying is that, 'there can be no determination of concepts using other concepts' and that's not true! Non concepts go with non expression. Silence. Formlessness. But words create. Existence is purely in the domain of words. Perhaps you can't appreciate the idea that God exists with or without our existence and beyond the limits of our ideas and concepts. It's possible to appreciate this last proposition you've made in the context of ideas and concepts. The limit to it is that if there was absolutely no human or creatures with similar linguistic capacity, then the situation you're talking about would absolutely not exist. The idea is God is not an idea. God may or may not exist or lies somewhere in between but that situation is independent of the limits our ideas and concepts. Your views on the nature of existence and how that determines the existence and nature of God do not limit or determine the existence and nature of God. Clearly, what we have here is a 'disagreement' of ideas and concepts. That's to be expected of humans because each human, based on his experience has his own belief structure and belief dynamics. What I can assure you is that one can't talk or know of something if it's not an idea in the mind. How, when and why ideas change is an issue that may be beyond the scope of this thread. But at least I have shared a perspective whose usefulness and explanatory power is enough to facilitate survival and mutual coexistence of the human species irrespective of difference in faith and creed.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
|
tycho wrote:
Clearly, what we have here is a 'disagreement' of ideas and concepts. That's to be expected of humans because each human, based on his experience has his own belief structure and belief dynamics.
What I can assure you is that one can't talk or know of something if it's not an idea in the mind.
How, when and why ideas change is an issue that may be beyond the scope of this thread. But at least I have shared a perspective whose usefulness and explanatory power is enough to facilitate survival and mutual coexistence of the human species irrespective of difference in faith and creed.
You can't assure anyone of anything. You are just sharing your views on the nature of existence based on your limited ideas and concepts. The idea that you are rejecting is that God is not an idea and may actually exist. You are simply sharing your beliefs and 'chest thumping' about the it's power and benefits.I believe you called this nonsense.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
¿ wrote:tycho wrote:
Clearly, what we have here is a 'disagreement' of ideas and concepts. That's to be expected of humans because each human, based on his experience has his own belief structure and belief dynamics.
What I can assure you is that one can't talk or know of something if it's not an idea in the mind.
How, when and why ideas change is an issue that may be beyond the scope of this thread. But at least I have shared a perspective whose usefulness and explanatory power is enough to facilitate survival and mutual coexistence of the human species irrespective of difference in faith and creed.
You can't assure anyone of anything. You are just sharing your views on the nature of existence based on your limited ideas and concepts. The idea that you are rejecting is that God is not an idea and may actually exist. You are simply sharing your beliefs and 'chest thumping' about the it's power and benefits.I believe you called this nonsense. An idea may exist. 'tycho' is an idea, 'tycho' exists. I can assure you of some things; like all ideas exist in the mind. There's no chest thumping there.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
|
tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:
Clearly, what we have here is a 'disagreement' of ideas and concepts. That's to be expected of humans because each human, based on his experience has his own belief structure and belief dynamics.
What I can assure you is that one can't talk or know of something if it's not an idea in the mind.
How, when and why ideas change is an issue that may be beyond the scope of this thread. But at least I have shared a perspective whose usefulness and explanatory power is enough to facilitate survival and mutual coexistence of the human species irrespective of difference in faith and creed.
You can't assure anyone of anything. You are just sharing your views on the nature of existence based on your limited ideas and concepts. The idea that you are rejecting is that God is not an idea and may actually exist. You are simply sharing your beliefs and 'chest thumping' about the it's power and benefits.I believe you called this nonsense. An idea may exist. 'tycho' is an idea, 'tycho' exists. I can assure you of some things; like all ideas exist in the mind. There's no chest thumping there. I don't deny that the idea you can assure anyone of anything exists in your mind. The same way you are sharing your ideas,beliefs and their benefits is the same way others have shared theirs using ideas,concepts and beliefs.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:
Clearly, what we have here is a 'disagreement' of ideas and concepts. That's to be expected of humans because each human, based on his experience has his own belief structure and belief dynamics.
What I can assure you is that one can't talk or know of something if it's not an idea in the mind.
How, when and why ideas change is an issue that may be beyond the scope of this thread. But at least I have shared a perspective whose usefulness and explanatory power is enough to facilitate survival and mutual coexistence of the human species irrespective of difference in faith and creed.
You can't assure anyone of anything. You are just sharing your views on the nature of existence based on your limited ideas and concepts. The idea that you are rejecting is that God is not an idea and may actually exist. You are simply sharing your beliefs and 'chest thumping' about the it's power and benefits.I believe you called this nonsense. An idea may exist. 'tycho' is an idea, 'tycho' exists. I can assure you of some things; like all ideas exist in the mind. There's no chest thumping there. I don't deny that the idea you can assure anyone of anything exists in your mind. The same way you are sharing your ideas,beliefs and their benefits is the same way others have shared theirs using ideas,concepts and beliefs. That's true!
|
|
|
Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Life
»
Christianity Versus Education
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
|