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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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¿ wrote:tycho wrote:Swenani wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:This reminds me of a school of thought that is easy to forget - Pragmatism.
Someone help me, what problem(s) being faced now in Kenya can be best solved by atheism or theism, and how? Define problem. I'll define 'problem' as a state of being or affairs that are unpleasant or unwanted, Some problems do not need an intervention And some do require intervention, no? Why? Because experience depends on shared resources, and situations. One man's meat may be another's poison, but both have to depend on each other to be human. Both are on the same land and have to work together for each to get what he/she wants.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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tycho wrote:
I agree. You've paraphrased what West Churchman called the 'Challenge to reason'. He argues that Leibniz's 'monadism' calls for a God who knows the whole universe; but now when God is no longer necessary, reason and science must show that it knows the whole universe to be able to speak of 'Good', 'better', or 'best'.
You've stated that God is an abstract concept to explain and modify human experience. Reason and science has not shown God doesn't exist,is no longer necessary and is bound by reason and science. These are propositions.Another proposition is that reason and science can define 'good','better' or 'best' or even justify the 'need' to define them. In place of the worship of God,we have worship of abstracts concepts that exalts man and nature. As I said, this is old religion.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:Swenani wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:This reminds me of a school of thought that is easy to forget - Pragmatism.
Someone help me, what problem(s) being faced now in Kenya can be best solved by atheism or theism, and how? Define problem. I'll define 'problem' as a state of being or affairs that are unpleasant or unwanted, Some problems do not need an intervention And some do require intervention, no? Why? Because experience depends on shared resources, and situations. One man's meat may be another's poison, but both have to depend on each other to be human. Both are on the same land and have to work together for each to get what he/she wants. Experience is experience. Shared resources and situations do not imply intervention. ¿ wrote:By defining the unpleasant or unwanted state of being or affairs and where applicable,how to arrive at the wanted or pleasant state. You are giving meaning to experience to justify action based on an abstract concept called a 'problem' that may be someone's 'opportunity'.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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¿ wrote:tycho wrote:
I agree. You've paraphrased what West Churchman called the 'Challenge to reason'. He argues that Leibniz's 'monadism' calls for a God who knows the whole universe; but now when God is no longer necessary, reason and science must show that it knows the whole universe to be able to speak of 'Good', 'better', or 'best'.
You've stated that God is an abstract concept to explain and modify human experience. Reason and science has not shown God doesn't exist,is no longer necessary and is bound by reason and science. These are propositions.Another proposition is that reason and science can define 'good','better' or 'best' or even justify the 'need' to define them. In place of the worship of God,we have worship of abstracts concepts that exalts man and nature. As I said, this is old religion. 'Abstract concepts' isn't equal to religion. Language is based on abstract concepts yet language isn't necessarily religion. The computer program you're using is made of abstract concepts. Again, 'old religion' is an abstract concept. Science has come up with abstract concepts that don't have God as a necessary condition for existence - the inflationary expansion of the universe and the big bang theory for example. Now, terms like 'good' or 'better' imply comparison and for one to compare the elements of any set he/ she must know of all the elements of a certain set. Hence we are looking at how abstract concepts compare and the necessary conditions they must meet in order to be useful for personal experience.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:Swenani wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:This reminds me of a school of thought that is easy to forget - Pragmatism.
Someone help me, what problem(s) being faced now in Kenya can be best solved by atheism or theism, and how? Define problem. I'll define 'problem' as a state of being or affairs that are unpleasant or unwanted, Some problems do not need an intervention And some do require intervention, no? Why? Because experience depends on shared resources, and situations. One man's meat may be another's poison, but both have to depend on each other to be human. Both are on the same land and have to work together for each to get what he/she wants. Experience is experience. Shared resources and situations do not imply intervention. ¿ wrote:By defining the unpleasant or unwanted state of being or affairs and where applicable,how to arrive at the wanted or pleasant state. You are giving meaning to experience to justify action based on an abstract concept called a 'problem' that may be someone's 'opportunity'. Shared resources and situations are sufficient reasons for intervention. To share is to make joint use of something, use is action, action is intervention. Experience, has to rely on abstract concepts like 'problems', 'states' and the like. For example, language mediates experience. Yes, one man's experience may be another's opportunity; that's the cornerstone of society, trade, exchange, politics. Once a problem is defined then a solution is also defined and complementary roles emerge.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:
I agree. You've paraphrased what West Churchman called the 'Challenge to reason'. He argues that Leibniz's 'monadism' calls for a God who knows the whole universe; but now when God is no longer necessary, reason and science must show that it knows the whole universe to be able to speak of 'Good', 'better', or 'best'.
You've stated that God is an abstract concept to explain and modify human experience. Reason and science has not shown God doesn't exist,is no longer necessary and is bound by reason and science. These are propositions.Another proposition is that reason and science can define 'good','better' or 'best' or even justify the 'need' to define them. In place of the worship of God,we have worship of abstracts concepts that exalts man and nature. As I said, this is old religion. 'Abstract concepts' isn't equal to religion. Language is based on abstract concepts yet language isn't necessarily religion. The computer program you're using is made of abstract concepts. Again, 'old religion' is an abstract concept. Science has come up with abstract concepts that don't have God as a necessary condition for existence - the inflationary expansion of the universe and the big bang theory for example. Now, terms like 'good' or 'better' imply comparison and for one to compare the elements of any set he/ she must know of all the elements of a certain set. Hence we are looking at how abstract concepts compare and the necessary conditions they must meet in order to be useful for personal experience. Science can offer theories but it hasn't offered proof that God doesn't exist. This is also a proposition that God can be bound by science. Similarly, like you, science hasn't shown it knows all of the elements and conditions necessary to have and define terms such as 'good' or 'better'. I never said abstract concepts are equal to religion. I also never said God is an abstract concept. This is what you are proposing. I only said these concepts are part of old religion by inadequately trying to explaining and modifying human experience where man's own understanding and nature replaces God. We know this is a part of religion.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:Swenani wrote:tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:This reminds me of a school of thought that is easy to forget - Pragmatism.
Someone help me, what problem(s) being faced now in Kenya can be best solved by atheism or theism, and how? Define problem. I'll define 'problem' as a state of being or affairs that are unpleasant or unwanted, Some problems do not need an intervention And some do require intervention, no? Why? Because experience depends on shared resources, and situations. One man's meat may be another's poison, but both have to depend on each other to be human. Both are on the same land and have to work together for each to get what he/she wants. Experience is experience. Shared resources and situations do not imply intervention. ¿ wrote:By defining the unpleasant or unwanted state of being or affairs and where applicable,how to arrive at the wanted or pleasant state. You are giving meaning to experience to justify action based on an abstract concept called a 'problem' that may be someone's 'opportunity'. Shared resources and situations are sufficient reasons for intervention. To share is to make joint use of something, use is action, action is intervention. Experience, has to rely on abstract concepts like 'problems', 'states' and the like. For example, language mediates experience. Yes, one man's experience may be another's opportunity; that's the cornerstone of society, trade, exchange, politics. Once a problem is defined then a solution is also defined and complementary roles emerge. Like I said, experience is experience. Shared resources and situations are problems and sufficient reasons for intervention because you say they are. You are simply giving meaning to experience. Society,trade,exchange and politics are relevant only to the level one gives meaning to them. Like you,atheism and theism offer meaning to experience.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 4/27/2010 Posts: 951 Location: Nyumbani
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Sometimes around xmas i watched a doc on the scientific explanation about the miracles that happened in Egypt with Moses. There was some sense in it. Like why the firstborns died ? Answer  Food poisoning. Or stuff like Lot and the wife who turned into a salt statue !
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.
Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.
I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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tycho wrote:@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.
Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.
I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning. Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence. Science doesn't know if God exists. Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept.
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