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Christianity Versus Education
PeterReborn
#21 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 8:40:44 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/3/2014
Posts: 1,063
tycho wrote:
Fire is only good when it's controlled and its scope well defined. In this thread I doubt whether the fire generated is well controlled and scope clear.

The hypotheses are half baked, assumptions floated almost thoughtlessly and different agendas are springing left right and center. Yet when I think about it I see there's something interesting that can be cooked here.

I can only hope the mover can make some rectification and instead of asserting untested hypotheses he/she moves to identify the different hypotheses and probably conduct some tests in a discussion format. For example, the question, 'How is progressive education relating with Christianity'? Or, 'How does Christianity fair among the poor and probably less educated masses'? Could limit the scope and guide more intelligent conversation.

Otherwise right now I feel like responding to @AlphDoti on 'witchcraft', start chasing Hamburglar on dilettantism and the like. Then compound the effect when other minds chip in with their preferences.

It'll be like cooking omena in a blast furnace.

I could not find any research about the relationship between religion and the level of education but I found one on religion and intelligence here

Evidence pointing to a negative relationship between in-
telligence and religious belief within nations comes from
four sources. These are (1) negative correlations between intel-
ligence and religious belief; (2) lower percentages holding
religious beliefs among intelligence elites compared with the
general population: (3) a decline of religious belief with age
among children and adolescents as their cognitive abilities
increase; (4) a decline of religious belief during the course of
the twentieth century as the intelligence of populations has
increased.
Consistency is better than intensity
Mukiri
#22 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 8:49:00 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
The Bible says something about a rich man, and a camel through the eye of a needle. Moreover, remember the rich dude who walked away miserable, when he was told what was left of him?

What does it benefit you, to gain the whole world and lose your ....

I love poetry. Spoken word. There's a profound one that asks, why hoard so much when others are suffering?

The last Apologetics I attended, the facilitator, a philosophy student, talked about how he went into it to quell the notion of Christianity/Religion, but the more he dug deeper, the more his faith grew! The more he asked questions, the clearer the answers became!

My brother, you are on the right track.... The answers you seek might just be revealed to you.

Proverbs 19:21
majimaji
#23 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 9:01:02 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/4/2007
Posts: 1,162
Angelica _ann wrote:
Impunity wrote:
I will only be reading posts in this thread.

Together!!!


I will not comment on this misinformed postsmile
PeterReborn
#24 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 9:23:39 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/3/2014
Posts: 1,063
Mukiri wrote:
The Bible says something about a rich man, and a camel through the eye of a needle. Moreover, remember the rich dude who walked away miserable, when he was told what was left of him?

What does it benefit you, to gain the whole world and lose your ....

I love poetry. Spoken word. There's a profound one that asks, why hoard so much when others are suffering?

The last Apologetics I attended, the facilitator, a philosophy student, talked about how he went into it to quell the notion of Christianity/Religion, but the more he dug deeper, the more his faith grew! The more he asked questions, the clearer the answers became!

My brother, you are on the right track.... The answers you seek might just be revealed to you.

Thank you Pastor.Quick question why does the Bible seem biased against the rich.Why is there deliberate efforts to convince us that heaven is only for the poor and the rich people will not see the Kingdom of God.Why are there so many songs about how man forgets about God when he gets rich and only remembers him when he is poor?
Consistency is better than intensity
PeterReborn
#25 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 9:32:39 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/3/2014
Posts: 1,063
murchr wrote:
PeterReborn wrote:
I was reading about how Jesus selected his disciples and got a number of questions.
Why did he select 'normal' people as disciples?I don't know about other religions but why does it seem like the more a person gets educated,the more he loses his faith?Is it why Jesus did not choose university professors as his disciples.
Why do most young people (some of whom were very religious in primary and secondary school level) start losing their faith when they go to the universities?
Why is it that the so called atheists are highly educated and very bright fellows.
One of the social indicators of poverty is the number of churches in an environment.The more the churches the higher the poverty index.Look at kariobangi,baba ndogo,Githurai,kawangware etc.The majority of the residents of these areas are also not highly educated.
Is faith inversely proportional to the level of education?
Is Christianity dying as we become more educated?




Did they have Universities back then with Professors? I thought the learned back in those days were people with professions such as "the Fisherman" "the Tax collector" "those from the house of Levi, those who kept the law - Priests" "the Carpenter" etc... Luke was a doctor

Every work involves some kind of skill-farming,fishing etc.If the 'educated' were fishermen then what was the level of education for the 'normal' person?
Consistency is better than intensity
PeterReborn
#26 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 9:39:10 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/3/2014
Posts: 1,063
Swenani wrote:
PeterReborn wrote:
I was reading about how Jesus selected his disciples and got a number of questions.
Why did he select 'normal' people as disciples?I don't know about other religions but why does it seem like the more a person gets educated,the more he loses his faith?Is it why Jesus did not choose university professors as his disciples.
Why do most young people (some of whom were very religious in primary and secondary school level) start losing their faith when they go to the universities?
Why is it that the so called atheists are highly educated and very bright fellows.
One of the social indicators of poverty is the number of churches in an environment.The more the churches the higher the poverty index.Look at kariobangi,baba ndogo,Githurai,kawangware etc.The majority of the residents of these areas are also not highly educated.
Is faith inversely proportional to the level of education?
Is Christianity dying as we become more educated?


Are the above assumptions based on your limited thinking,opinions and observation or they are verifiable facts?




You cannot verify faith.In fact if you ask questions you are deemed to have little faith.Faith is believing in something you cannot see.
That brings me to my other theory.The main reason why most religions punish you when you leave them is to act as a deterrent measure to prevent other members from leaving that religion.They give you conditions such as you cannot marry someone from a different religion and make you an outcast so that you don't have an independent opinion about your religious beliefs.
Consistency is better than intensity
Mukiri
#27 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 9:50:47 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
PeterReborn wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
The Bible says something about a rich man, and a camel through the eye of a needle. Moreover, remember the rich dude who walked away miserable, when he was told what was left of him?

What does it benefit you, to gain the whole world and lose your ....

I love poetry. Spoken word. There's a profound one that asks, why hoard so much when others are suffering?

The last Apologetics I attended, the facilitator, a philosophy student, talked about how he went into it to quell the notion of Christianity/Religion, but the more he dug deeper, the more his faith grew! The more he asked questions, the clearer the answers became!

My brother, you are on the right track.... The answers you seek might just be revealed to you.

Thank you Pastor.Quick question why does the Bible seem biased against the rich.Why is there deliberate efforts to convince us that heaven is only for the poor and the rich people will not see the Kingdom of God.Why are there so many songs about how man forgets about God when he gets rich and only remembers him when he is poor?

Good questions. Im curious as to what answers will be revealed to you, on this one. As to how, you'll interpret it.

I hope you know that its not you asking, but you being asked.

Proverbs 19:21
Swenani
#28 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 9:56:34 AM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
PeterReborn wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
The Bible says something about a rich man, and a camel through the eye of a needle. Moreover, remember the rich dude who walked away miserable, when he was told what was left of him?

What does it benefit you, to gain the whole world and lose your ....

I love poetry. Spoken word. There's a profound one that asks, why hoard so much when others are suffering?

The last Apologetics I attended, the facilitator, a philosophy student, talked about how he went into it to quell the notion of Christianity/Religion, but the more he dug deeper, the more his faith grew! The more he asked questions, the clearer the answers became!

My brother, you are on the right track.... The answers you seek might just be revealed to you.

Thank you Pastor.Quick question why does the Bible seem biased against the rich.Why is there deliberate efforts to convince us that heaven is only for the poor and the rich people will not see the Kingdom of God.Why are there so many songs about how man forgets about God when he gets rich and only remembers him when he is poor?


Can you quote a verse?
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
PeterReborn
#29 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 10:10:26 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/3/2014
Posts: 1,063
Swenani wrote:
PeterReborn wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
The Bible says something about a rich man, and a camel through the eye of a needle. Moreover, remember the rich dude who walked away miserable, when he was told what was left of him?

What does it benefit you, to gain the whole world and lose your ....

I love poetry. Spoken word. There's a profound one that asks, why hoard so much when others are suffering?

The last Apologetics I attended, the facilitator, a philosophy student, talked about how he went into it to quell the notion of Christianity/Religion, but the more he dug deeper, the more his faith grew! The more he asked questions, the clearer the answers became!

My brother, you are on the right track.... The answers you seek might just be revealed to you.

Thank you Pastor.Quick question why does the Bible seem biased against the rich.Why is there deliberate efforts to convince us that heaven is only for the poor and the rich people will not see the Kingdom of God.Why are there so many songs about how man forgets about God when he gets rich and only remembers him when he is poor?


Can you quote a verse?

Consistency is better than intensity
tycho
#30 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 12:17:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@PeterReborn, I've gone through the link you've provided on the correlation of high intelligence and decline in belief. And I realize that the content may seem truthful and logical at first glance, but is far from it.

Firstly, the argument is based on some IQ test as a comprehensive measure of intelligence, but this is hardly the case.

I concede that people who score high in IQ tests may show less interest and activity in religion, but this may be an adaptation to an environment and conditions that favor such behavior and rationalizations. For example, a consumerist economy would demand most beneficiaries of it to uphold its values. Most beneficiaries would score high in IQ tests. But consumerism may be at odds with religious belief, hence a person with high IQ may actually lower his religious belief to survive.

But would you expect the economic outsiders to have the same incentive to jettison their beliefs, especially when beliefs are survival tools?

Clearly it's important for us to consider how the human mind works when answering these questions. Let me let you in on something that may have passed your notice. Most 'Churches' in the slums are voodooistic. They are not strictly 'Christian'. That is, there's also a decline in belief even among those who may be said to be of low IQ.

Secondly, decline in some religious belief doesn't necessarily imply atheism. In fact, belief systems are fluid networks and many configurations are available. One can even argue that voodoo is atheistic.

Your argument has too many hasty conclusions, and a possible motive behind it is atheism has been taken as a fashion by some people and cultures.
tycho
#31 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 12:30:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
PeterReborn wrote:
Swenani wrote:
PeterReborn wrote:
I was reading about how Jesus selected his disciples and got a number of questions.
Why did he select 'normal' people as disciples?I don't know about other religions but why does it seem like the more a person gets educated,the more he loses his faith?Is it why Jesus did not choose university professors as his disciples.
Why do most young people (some of whom were very religious in primary and secondary school level) start losing their faith when they go to the universities?
Why is it that the so called atheists are highly educated and very bright fellows.
One of the social indicators of poverty is the number of churches in an environment.The more the churches the higher the poverty index.Look at kariobangi,baba ndogo,Githurai,kawangware etc.The majority of the residents of these areas are also not highly educated.
Is faith inversely proportional to the level of education?
Is Christianity dying as we become more educated?


Are the above assumptions based on your limited thinking,opinions and observation or they are verifiable facts?




You cannot verify faith.In fact if you ask questions you are deemed to have little faith.Faith is believing in something you cannot see.
That brings me to my other theory.The main reason why most religions punish you when you leave them is to act as a deterrent measure to prevent other members from leaving that religion.They give you conditions such as you cannot marry someone from a different religion and make you an outcast so that you don't have an independent opinion about your religious beliefs.


Faith is verified by 'fire', not simply questions. Fire is inner experience of turmoil and unease.

That's why the rich are expected to have problems with entering heaven. Even our resident atheist always reminds us that he eats in expensive restaurants. There's no fire.

But not all rich people lack fire. There are many examples even in the Bible. Abraham was rich. Jacob ...
PeterReborn
#32 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 12:56:33 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/3/2014
Posts: 1,063
tycho wrote:
PeterReborn wrote:
Swenani wrote:
PeterReborn wrote:
I was reading about how Jesus selected his disciples and got a number of questions.
Why did he select 'normal' people as disciples?I don't know about other religions but why does it seem like the more a person gets educated,the more he loses his faith?Is it why Jesus did not choose university professors as his disciples.
Why do most young people (some of whom were very religious in primary and secondary school level) start losing their faith when they go to the universities?
Why is it that the so called atheists are highly educated and very bright fellows.
One of the social indicators of poverty is the number of churches in an environment.The more the churches the higher the poverty index.Look at kariobangi,baba ndogo,Githurai,kawangware etc.The majority of the residents of these areas are also not highly educated.
Is faith inversely proportional to the level of education?
Is Christianity dying as we become more educated?


Are the above assumptions based on your limited thinking,opinions and observation or they are verifiable facts?




You cannot verify faith.In fact if you ask questions you are deemed to have little faith.Faith is believing in something you cannot see.
That brings me to my other theory.The main reason why most religions punish you when you leave them is to act as a deterrent measure to prevent other members from leaving that religion.They give you conditions such as you cannot marry someone from a different religion and make you an outcast so that you don't have an independent opinion about your religious beliefs.


Faith is verified by 'fire', not simply questions. Fire is inner experience of turmoil and unease.

That's why the rich are expected to have problems with entering heaven. Even our resident atheist always reminds us that he eats in expensive restaurants. There's no fire.

But not all rich people lack fire. There are many examples even in the Bible. Abraham was rich. Jacob ...

How then do you measure this fire?How can you have turmoil and unease without asking yourself some critical questions?Why is it that a rich man must lose everything to see the kingdom of God?People like Abraham lost everything including his wife and lying that she was his sister. in Luke 18:22 Jesus says " “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Consistency is better than intensity
Swenani
#33 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 1:36:20 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
PeterReborn wrote:
Swenani wrote:
PeterReborn wrote:
I was reading about how Jesus selected his disciples and got a number of questions.
Why did he select 'normal' people as disciples?I don't know about other religions but why does it seem like the more a person gets educated,the more he loses his faith?Is it why Jesus did not choose university professors as his disciples.
Why do most young people (some of whom were very religious in primary and secondary school level) start losing their faith when they go to the universities?
Why is it that the so called atheists are highly educated and very bright fellows.
One of the social indicators of poverty is the number of churches in an environment.The more the churches the higher the poverty index.Look at kariobangi,baba ndogo,Githurai,kawangware etc.The majority of the residents of these areas are also not highly educated.
Is faith inversely proportional to the level of education?
Is Christianity dying as we become more educated?


Are the above assumptions based on your limited thinking,opinions and observation or they are verifiable facts?




You cannot verify faith.In fact if you ask questions you are deemed to have little faith.Faith is believing in something you cannot see.
That brings me to my other theory.The main reason why most religions punish you when you leave them is to act as a deterrent measure to prevent other members from leaving that religion.They give you conditions such as you cannot marry someone from a different religion and make you an outcast so that you don't have an independent opinion about your religious beliefs.


So how did you verify that a person who is more educated is likely to lose faith?
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
tycho
#34 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 1:46:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
PeterReborn wrote:
tycho wrote:
PeterReborn wrote:
Swenani wrote:
PeterReborn wrote:
I was reading about how Jesus selected his disciples and got a number of questions.
Why did he select 'normal' people as disciples?I don't know about other religions but why does it seem like the more a person gets educated,the more he loses his faith?Is it why Jesus did not choose university professors as his disciples.
Why do most young people (some of whom were very religious in primary and secondary school level) start losing their faith when they go to the universities?
Why is it that the so called atheists are highly educated and very bright fellows.
One of the social indicators of poverty is the number of churches in an environment.The more the churches the higher the poverty index.Look at kariobangi,baba ndogo,Githurai,kawangware etc.The majority of the residents of these areas are also not highly educated.
Is faith inversely proportional to the level of education?
Is Christianity dying as we become more educated?


Are the above assumptions based on your limited thinking,opinions and observation or they are verifiable facts?




You cannot verify faith.In fact if you ask questions you are deemed to have little faith.Faith is believing in something you cannot see.
That brings me to my other theory.The main reason why most religions punish you when you leave them is to act as a deterrent measure to prevent other members from leaving that religion.They give you conditions such as you cannot marry someone from a different religion and make you an outcast so that you don't have an independent opinion about your religious beliefs.


Faith is verified by 'fire', not simply questions. Fire is inner experience of turmoil and unease.

That's why the rich are expected to have problems with entering heaven. Even our resident atheist always reminds us that he eats in expensive restaurants. There's no fire.

But not all rich people lack fire. There are many examples even in the Bible. Abraham was rich. Jacob ...

How then do you measure this fire?How can you have turmoil and unease without asking yourself some critical questions?Why is it that a rich man must lose everything to see the kingdom of God?People like Abraham lost everything including his wife and lying that she was his sister. in Luke 18:22 Jesus says " “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”



One can ask a difficult question without the urgency of answering it. The measure of urgency is the threat to some highly held value like survival, and level of cognitive dissonance.

Some, not all, rich people lose their riches for heaven. But poverty provides some space for fire.
Mike Ock
#35 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2015 4:55:42 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/22/2015
Posts: 682
@PeterReborn all I will say is keep questioning. It is through constantly questioning our situations that we bring progress to this world.

Extend your questions to a global level. Why is religion most concentrated in third world countries? Why is the the most religious group third world women? Add more of your own.

And don't forget to seek the answers to said questions. You will emerge a better man however the exercise goes.
tycho
#36 Posted : Friday, August 07, 2015 8:00:34 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
The most important thing is to learn asking the right questions, and the right questions stem from a conscious recognition of the self as 'intelligent agent'.

So the right questions are about the self, and how others relate to the self-and vice versa. Otherwise some of these questions we ask are just respectable disguises for idleness.
hamburglar
#37 Posted : Friday, August 07, 2015 8:39:00 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/17/2011
Posts: 887
Tycho. Kichwa yako inakuwanga mzuri? You always keep rambling and saying things that nobody understands. Even when people ignore you, you still somehow manage to come up with some gibberish that don't make sense. Dude, you don't have to comment on every thread. Sometimes it's good to take a back seat and just watch and learn. Everytime i try to read something constructive, there you are, throwing me off with your nonsense, and by the time i skip reading all your posts, i have to remember what the topic was in the first place. Jesus.
hamburglar
#38 Posted : Friday, August 07, 2015 8:42:46 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/17/2011
Posts: 887
kysse wrote:
I knew hamburglar would be the first one to respond.


Of course. Every time i see religions and imaginary gods getting an ass whooping, i get to that thread in warp speed to add my "words of wisdom" and throw some thinly veiled attacks on religious people.
Angelica _ann
#39 Posted : Friday, August 07, 2015 8:51:22 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,908
hamburglar wrote:
Tycho. Kichwa yako inakuwanga mzuri? You always keep rambling and saying things that nobody understands. Even when people ignore you, you still somehow manage to come up with some gibberish that don't make sense. Dude, you don't have to comment on every thread. Sometimes it's good to take a back seat and just watch and learn. Everytime i try to read something constructive, there you are, throwing me off with your nonsense, and by the time i skip reading all your posts, i have to remember what the topic was in the first place. Jesus.

Jesus Lord smile
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
Swenani
#40 Posted : Friday, August 07, 2015 8:51:29 AM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
hamburglar wrote:
Tycho. Kichwa yako inakuwanga mzuri? You always keep rambling and saying things that nobody understands. Even when people ignore you, you still somehow manage to come up with some gibberish that don't make sense. Dude, you don't have to comment on every thread. Sometimes it's good to take a back seat and just watch and learn. Everytime i try to read something constructive, there you are, throwing me off with your nonsense, and by the time i skip reading all your posts, i have to remember what the topic was in the first place. Jesus.



If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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