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Shocking police story
butterflyke
#71 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 12:29:33 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 3,024
Location: Hapa
murchr wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
murchr wrote:
Robinhood wrote:
murchr wrote:
Robinhood wrote:
Nothing in our incompetent security forces will shock me. ION, I hear Karangi will retire and be appointed the national security advisor or head of homeland security or whatever cosmetic 'reforms' they are considering. Has this guy not done enough damage to the credibility of our security operations? Just asking


Have we lost a war? Dont blame Karangi for the useless policing we have, the man has never headed the police force. Now i support @tycho with the whiners comment.



Westgate crap? Soldiers watching helplessly as kids are massacred in Garissa ? Your memory is short chief...


Those who got involved in stealing at westgate were fired, its not the job or the army to go in and evacuate people...as much as I pity the kids, that was a police job.

I simply don't get this. You secure the scene coz it's not your job to battle terrorists? For hours?? All that time you hear cries of victims as the Islamic brutes leisurely carry out their act?


You have to understand that security forces work on orders. The military do not take orders from Raia, or the local cops the commander has to give them instructions. Its the job of the police to secure the public within the country, in this case the police in Garissa should have been the ones evacuating and going after the criminals inside the buildings and if they werent able then reinforcement is sent from the other police units (RECCE, GSU, etc). The army is not trained to do this. I think Kenyans see people in uniform and assume that its their duty to serve them whenever they want...its almost like in the med field, a dentist cannot treat your malaria. Like i've said again, the army's duty is to kill whoever is on the other side.



Be as it may that orders have to be issued and followed by the police, how long will it take to get this right? This is not a movie in the making where you can 79 takes.....after Westgate, the forces must have gotten their acts together!
Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. - Muhammad Ali🐝
Swenani
#72 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 7:58:02 AM
Rank: User

Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
butterflyke wrote:
murchr wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
murchr wrote:
Robinhood wrote:
murchr wrote:
Robinhood wrote:
Nothing in our incompetent security forces will shock me. ION, I hear Karangi will retire and be appointed the national security advisor or head of homeland security or whatever cosmetic 'reforms' they are considering. Has this guy not done enough damage to the credibility of our security operations? Just asking


Have we lost a war? Dont blame Karangi for the useless policing we have, the man has never headed the police force. Now i support @tycho with the whiners comment.



Westgate crap? Soldiers watching helplessly as kids are massacred in Garissa ? Your memory is short chief...


Those who got involved in stealing at westgate were fired, its not the job or the army to go in and evacuate people...as much as I pity the kids, that was a police job.

I simply don't get this. You secure the scene coz it's not your job to battle terrorists? For hours?? All that time you hear cries of victims as the Islamic brutes leisurely carry out their act?


You have to understand that security forces work on orders. The military do not take orders from Raia, or the local cops the commander has to give them instructions. Its the job of the police to secure the public within the country, in this case the police in Garissa should have been the ones evacuating and going after the criminals inside the buildings and if they werent able then reinforcement is sent from the other police units (RECCE, GSU, etc). The army is not trained to do this. I think Kenyans see people in uniform and assume that its their duty to serve them whenever they want...its almost like in the med field, a dentist cannot treat your malaria. Like i've said again, the army's duty is to kill whoever is on the other side.



Be as it may that orders have to be issued and followed by the police, how long will it take to get this right? This is not a movie in the making where you can 79 takes.....after Westgate, the forces should have gotten their acts together!

If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
Muriel
#73 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 10:36:04 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
murchr wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
murchr wrote:


You have to understand that security forces work on orders. The military do not take orders from Raia, or the local cops the commander has to give them instructions. Its the job of the police to secure the public within the country, in this case the police in Garissa should have been the ones evacuating and going after the criminals inside the buildings and if they werent able then reinforcement is sent from the other police units (RECCE, GSU, etc). The army is not trained to do this. I think Kenyans see people in uniform and assume that its their duty to serve them whenever they want...its almost like in the med field, a dentist cannot treat your malaria. Like i've said again, the army's duty is to kill whoever is on the other side.


I just can't agree with this. Millitary is not trained in what? When they go for missions in other countries like Somalia and the battle is in an urban area, they will do what they did in Garissa? Spectate like that VoK era phrase, 'curious onlookers'?

Look, these guys are among the select few in Kenya who have rights and training on how to use firearms. If they have to spectate like they did, then tuna shida! Granted, Recce- who are under the police-may be better in those missions but you can't just spectate as those mohameddan boys leisurely kill Kenyans!

If you are a defender, and you find yourself in good position to score FOR your team, will you hold the ball and wait for a striker because scoring is not your role?

Tuwache kuwa literalists!


When they go to a place like Somalia, they bomb the whole building down without considering who is in there or who is not. Its not for them to speculate on if there's a woman etc bla bla...they hit a target and neutralize the threat. They are not trained to perform commando mission like activities...hizo ni za special forces, that's why I keep insisting with the new age kind of crime, we cant continue recruiting D materials to reason with criminals.



Obviously you like arguing for the sake of arguing.

Why?
TNT
#74 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 11:45:13 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 5/22/2009
Posts: 206
Swenani wrote:
butterflyke wrote:
murchr wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
murchr wrote:
Robinhood wrote:
murchr wrote:
Robinhood wrote:
Nothing in our incompetent security forces will shock me. ION, I hear Karangi will retire and be appointed the national security advisor or head of homeland security or whatever cosmetic 'reforms' they are considering. Has this guy not done enough damage to the credibility of our security operations? Just asking


Have we lost a war? Dont blame Karangi for the useless policing we have, the man has never headed the police force. Now i support @tycho with the whiners comment.



Westgate crap? Soldiers watching helplessly as kids are massacred in Garissa ? Your memory is short chief...


Those who got involved in stealing at westgate were fired, its not the job or the army to go in and evacuate people...as much as I pity the kids, that was a police job.

I simply don't get this. You secure the scene coz it's not your job to battle terrorists? For hours?? All that time you hear cries of victims as the Islamic brutes leisurely carry out their act?


You have to understand that security forces work on orders. The military do not take orders from Raia, or the local cops the commander has to give them instructions. Its the job of the police to secure the public within the country, in this case the police in Garissa should have been the ones evacuating and going after the criminals inside the buildings and if they werent able then reinforcement is sent from the other police units (RECCE, GSU, etc). The army is not trained to do this. I think Kenyans see people in uniform and assume that its their duty to serve them whenever they want...its almost like in the med field, a dentist cannot treat your malaria. Like i've said again, the army's duty is to kill whoever is on the other side.



Be as it may that orders have to be issued and followed by the police, how long will it take to get this right? This is not a movie in the making where you can 79 takes.....after Westgate, the forces should have gotten their acts together!



I think that is a fallacy and it's a shame you are perpetuating that falsehood. However, if it is true, then we are in big trouble because it means that our army is incapable of, say, fighting a warlord in his palace because that would amount to Close Quarter Combat. In essence what you are saying is that if our army were to find themselves in such a situation outside our borders, they would ask RECCe for assistance. That's just insane. Even the army claimed that it was their Special Forces that had cornered the Garissa attackers. The question is, weren't the Army Special Forces able to neutralize the terrorist much faster considering the terrorist were being led by a guy who until about a year ago was probably spending sleepless nights at the UoN studying for a CAT while our Army guys were in their barracks practising combat maneuvers. How is it that Al Shabaab can turn a "softie" into Rambo in less than a year while our Army System cannot seem to do the same even when they have more time and better "raw material" to work with?
marko
#75 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 12:04:20 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/7/2007
Posts: 838
The calibre of argument presentation here is wanting.
WHO DARES WINS
kiash
#76 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 12:48:22 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 4/27/2010
Posts: 951
Location: Nyumbani
jaggernaut wrote:
Interesting how the blame has now shifted to the police airwing guy and his daughters. Everyone seems to have forgotten that:

1. when the fleeing students arrived at the KDF barracks (next to the campus) at 6am and reported that they had been attacked, they were made to KNEEL for 1hr as the soldiers confirmed that the university had really been attacked.

2. Nkaiserry and IG of police flew to garissa in a police helicopter. What was difficult in them (immediately after arrival) sending the chopper to ruiru to pick recce? That helicopter was packed there at garissa the whole day.

3. The kdf soldiers were surrounding the campus for a whole 10hrs. Surely they should have stormed the place immediately after the attack occurred at 5.30am. The whole country shouldn't be waiting for recce to be ferried from ruiru whenever there is an attack.

4. The decision to send recce was made at 1pm. They were to use the cessna which was already parked at wilson airport. They were stuck in nbi traffic for 1hr, took another 1hr to get to garissa and another 1hr to be briefed, before storming the campus. Some recce officers went by road and actually arrived before the ones who flew to garissa.


haiya@Kenya
kiash
#77 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 12:51:49 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 4/27/2010
Posts: 951
Location: Nyumbani
maka wrote:
jaggernaut wrote:
Interesting how the blame has now shifted to the police airwing guy and his daughters. Everyone seems to have forgotten that:

1. when the fleeing students arrived at the KDF barracks (next to the campus) at 6am and reported that they had been attacked, they were made to KNEEL for 1hr as the soldiers confirmed that the university had really been attacked.

2. Nkaiserry and IG of police flew to garissa in a police helicopter. What was difficult in them (immediately after arrival) sending the chopper to ruiru to pick recce? That helicopter was packed there at garissa the whole day.

3. The kdf soldiers were surrounding the campus for a whole 10hrs. Surely they should have stormed the place immediately after the attack occurred at 5.30am. The whole country shouldn't be waiting for recce to be ferried from ruiru whenever there is an attack.

4. The decision to send recce was made at 1pm. They were to use the cessna which was already parked at wilson airport. They were stuck in nbi traffic for 1hr, took another 1hr to get to garissa and another 1hr to be briefed, before storming the campus.


We have so many problems...woiii
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly haiya saa hii ndio unajua? some people here think i hate Kenya for pointing out some ills and its done every day.
Obi 1 Kanobi
#78 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:43:51 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
TNT wrote:
Swenani wrote:
butterflyke wrote:
murchr wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
murchr wrote:
Robinhood wrote:
murchr wrote:
Robinhood wrote:
Nothing in our incompetent security forces will shock me. ION, I hear Karangi will retire and be appointed the national security advisor or head of homeland security or whatever cosmetic 'reforms' they are considering. Has this guy not done enough damage to the credibility of our security operations? Just asking


Have we lost a war? Dont blame Karangi for the useless policing we have, the man has never headed the police force. Now i support @tycho with the whiners comment.



Westgate crap? Soldiers watching helplessly as kids are massacred in Garissa ? Your memory is short chief...


Those who got involved in stealing at westgate were fired, its not the job or the army to go in and evacuate people...as much as I pity the kids, that was a police job.

I simply don't get this. You secure the scene coz it's not your job to battle terrorists? For hours?? All that time you hear cries of victims as the Islamic brutes leisurely carry out their act?


You have to understand that security forces work on orders. The military do not take orders from Raia, or the local cops the commander has to give them instructions. Its the job of the police to secure the public within the country, in this case the police in Garissa should have been the ones evacuating and going after the criminals inside the buildings and if they werent able then reinforcement is sent from the other police units (RECCE, GSU, etc). The army is not trained to do this. I think Kenyans see people in uniform and assume that its their duty to serve them whenever they want...its almost like in the med field, a dentist cannot treat your malaria. Like i've said again, the army's duty is to kill whoever is on the other side.



Be as it may that orders have to be issued and followed by the police, how long will it take to get this right? This is not a movie in the making where you can 79 takes.....after Westgate, the forces should have gotten their acts together!



I think that is a fallacy and it's a shame you are perpetuating that falsehood. However, if it is true, then we are in big trouble because it means that our army is incapable of, say, fighting a warlord in his palace because that would amount to Close Quarter Combat. In essence what you are saying is that if our army were to find themselves in such a situation outside our borders, they would ask RECCe for assistance. That's just insane. Even the army claimed that it was their Special Forces that had cornered the Garissa attackers. The question is, weren't the Army Special Forces able to neutralize the terrorist much faster considering the terrorist were being led by a guy who until about a year ago was probably spending sleepless nights at the UoN studying for a CAT while our Army guys were in their barracks practising combat maneuvers. How is it that Al Shabaab can turn a "softie" into Rambo in less than a year while our Army System cannot seem to do the same even when they have more time and better "raw material" to work with?


@Muchr, you have to be joking, did I read somewhere that the Army was claiming part of the responsibility for the neutralizing of the Garrissa attackers, how does that reconcile with your assertion about the Army not being responsible.

You need to wake up and accept as most here have that our army is as equally useless as their police counterparts. They sh*t the bed at westgate and repeated the same at Garrissa.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
Swenani
#79 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 3:28:04 PM
Rank: User

Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
kiash wrote:
maka wrote:
jaggernaut wrote:
Interesting how the blame has now shifted to the police airwing guy and his daughters. Everyone seems to have forgotten that:

1. when the fleeing students arrived at the KDF barracks (next to the campus) at 6am and reported that they had been attacked, they were made to KNEEL for 1hr as the soldiers confirmed that the university had really been attacked.

2. Nkaiserry and IG of police flew to garissa in a police helicopter. What was difficult in them (immediately after arrival) sending the chopper to ruiru to pick recce? That helicopter was packed there at garissa the whole day.

3. The kdf soldiers were surrounding the campus for a whole 10hrs. Surely they should have stormed the place immediately after the attack occurred at 5.30am. The whole country shouldn't be waiting for recce to be ferried from ruiru whenever there is an attack.

4. The decision to send recce was made at 1pm. They were to use the cessna which was already parked at wilson airport. They were stuck in nbi traffic for 1hr, took another 1hr to get to garissa and another 1hr to be briefed, before storming the campus.


We have so many problems...woiii
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly haiya saa hii ndio unajua? some people here think i hate Kenya for pointing out some ills and its done every day.


@maka was referring to the problems bedeviling his family(marital problems)
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
murchr
#80 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 5:30:36 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
TNT wrote:
Swenani wrote:
butterflyke wrote:
murchr wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
murchr wrote:
Robinhood wrote:
murchr wrote:
Robinhood wrote:
Nothing in our incompetent security forces will shock me. ION, I hear Karangi will retire and be appointed the national security advisor or head of homeland security or whatever cosmetic 'reforms' they are considering. Has this guy not done enough damage to the credibility of our security operations? Just asking


Have we lost a war? Dont blame Karangi for the useless policing we have, the man has never headed the police force. Now i support @tycho with the whiners comment.



Westgate crap? Soldiers watching helplessly as kids are massacred in Garissa ? Your memory is short chief...


Those who got involved in stealing at westgate were fired, its not the job or the army to go in and evacuate people...as much as I pity the kids, that was a police job.

I simply don't get this. You secure the scene coz it's not your job to battle terrorists? For hours?? All that time you hear cries of victims as the Islamic brutes leisurely carry out their act?


You have to understand that security forces work on orders. The military do not take orders from Raia, or the local cops the commander has to give them instructions. Its the job of the police to secure the public within the country, in this case the police in Garissa should have been the ones evacuating and going after the criminals inside the buildings and if they werent able then reinforcement is sent from the other police units (RECCE, GSU, etc). The army is not trained to do this. I think Kenyans see people in uniform and assume that its their duty to serve them whenever they want...its almost like in the med field, a dentist cannot treat your malaria. Like i've said again, the army's duty is to kill whoever is on the other side.



Be as it may that orders have to be issued and followed by the police, how long will it take to get this right? This is not a movie in the making where you can 79 takes.....after Westgate, the forces should have gotten their acts together!



I think that is a fallacy and it's a shame you are perpetuating that falsehood. However, if it is true, then we are in big trouble because it means that our army is incapable of, say, fighting a warlord in his palace because that would amount to Close Quarter Combat. In essence what you are saying is that if our army were to find themselves in such a situation outside our borders, they would ask RECCe for assistance. That's just insane. Even the army claimed that it was their Special Forces that had cornered the Garissa attackers. The question is, weren't the Army Special Forces able to neutralize the terrorist much faster considering the terrorist were being led by a guy who until about a year ago was probably spending sleepless nights at the UoN studying for a CAT while our Army guys were in their barracks practising combat maneuvers. How is it that Al Shabaab can turn a "softie" into Rambo in less than a year while our Army System cannot seem to do the same even when they have more time and better "raw material" to work with?


Its not insane, when the army goes to war, their main aim is to neutralize the enemy no negotiations etc so for your example, they would just bomb the palace and bring down the thing with whoever was inside.

This case, there were four criminals holding hostages, that's a police job. The armies way of doing things would have been to bring down the whole hostel but that was not ideal.

I'll give you examples. Now forget the movies...When the US army aims at targets, they use drones and missiles to neutralize their targets, when they get to the ground, they use hand grenades and bombs to neutralize targets right? Would you have wished for that in this situation? When they are sent to hostage situations...they use navy seals who are part of United States Special Operations Command. A more sophisticated form of our RECCE that is actually drawn from the military. Our military doesn't have that; from what we know our special combat mission is drawn from the GSU not the military.

And if you want to further understand the KDF, just look at their kiswahili descriptions
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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