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Nelson and Julius: who was greater?
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/18/2008 Posts: 3,434 Location: Kerugoya
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Lolest! wrote:Rolihlahla had more women issues than many other African leaders. He was a tough he-goat eeee should I take offense?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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aemathenge wrote:Lolest! wrote:Rolihlahla had more women issues than many other African leaders. He was a tough he-goat eeee should I take offense? 
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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majimaji wrote:
Between Moi and Uhuru, who will be judged greater?
History is a rather myopic creature. It is hard to see any good in our most recent leaders since we are looking too close. But, seen from a distance of say, 50 years, you might be surprised. Especially if we continue to elect some of the dunderheads we have been electing lately. The pain will be so great that people will come to wish for the 'good old days' of Baba/Kamwana etc. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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aemathenge wrote:Lolest! wrote:Rolihlahla had more women issues than many other African leaders. He was a tough he-goat eeee should I take offense? You should be honoured to be in such good company  "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Lolest! wrote:In assessing the 2, you ought to look at the environments they operated in
Mandela in the post cold war democracy era and Mwalimu in the cold war era when you could be an autocrat and be protected by your East/West powers you bowed down to
Nyerere's neighbours were land grabber Kenyatta and infamous dictator Amin Which is more valuable. Greatness acquired the hard way or the easy way? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Much Know wrote:tycho wrote:in African socialism and spent lots of time reading and thinking about it, while for Mandela
The coining of the FAKE term "African Socialism" the misunderstanding of language and political dispositions and the pursuant effort by African leaders including Jaramogi Odinga, Kwame Nkurumah, Nyerere, Obote to re-institute this non-existent "African Socialism" has been one of the biggest problems to bedevil Africa, i dare say the single most obstacle to African development, because it unknowingly lured them to communism/socialist tendencies, a simple failure in understanding English. There was nothing like African Socialism but there existed highly "socially integrated" African communities, note the difference, because such a small difference in understanding has led to several problems for Africa today. The communities swing from non-democratic/hereditary chiefdom's, kingdoms e.t.c, to democratic councils in other cases. My community for example were socially integrated (by choice), but CAPITALISTIC, and DEMOCRATIC with overwhelming respect for private property and individual freedom having escaped several times from slavery, their philosophy directed them to these ideas of freedom which rule the world today. The fact that they harvested and tilled land together does not mean that they did not separate each Murimis harvest/planting, there was no communal ironsmith, but barter trade with the "Murimi" (planter) and "Muturi" (ironsmith) saw him earn his keep, you chose where to take your apprenticeship at an early age, when the young were circumcised the saying "if you can't slaughter a goat you will slaughter a rat" pointed to individual capabilities of the parents, talk of the Kiamas (occupational groups) of hunters (athis) and Gitongas (rich folk) and their leaders, talk of the entertainers (kiama ki nkoma/ group of the nutcases) and the competitive democtratic appointment of the best from childhood to old age (mwongera of Moi age) into these groups. Yes the African system needs to be rebuilt, but not through uninformed/fake conceptions of "African Socialism". Talking of African socialism is calling Africans politically stupid in a certain sense. @Much know, it's true that 'African socialism' has been highly problematic and especially in our country. However, being a linguistic expression, it doesn't express something that existed but is metaphor of a desire for a certain political experience. It's on that account that I think 'fake' is too strong a word. As you've mentioned, the range of political organization across Africa was wide, and even inter and cross cultural order was managed different from the global and international order that came with the colonialists. That context itself gave way to plenty of distortion and exaggeration. For example even now ideas like 'willing buyer, willing seller' are sources of contention with the state apparently championing for it despite resistance from some quarters. We need to be aware of these facts indeed if we are to create a political reality that's optimally adaptive.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Lolest! wrote:Quote:As for those who insist that Sankara was a greater man than either Julias or Nelson, I disagree. Sankara, like Lumumba, and Jesus before them, was a beneficiary of conflated time. Simply, he did not live long enough to make the mistakes that would have revealed him as human. Maybe Mandela falls under the same time context. At the helm for 5 years only during transition. Mandela's legacy was more than 27 years in the making and in the process overcame many human frailties like multiple divorce, child abandonment, a failed boxing/legal career etc. Sankara was a young Army Captain when he took power and lived only a few years at the helm. Lumumba never really had time to practice state leadership before he was killed. It is easy to romanticize people we do not know very well, especially if they were dashing young men/women, or were taken away under tragic conditions. Closer to home: if Kimathi/Mboya had lived to become mired in the dirt of recent politics do you think we would have their statues adorning the capital city today? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@Wakanyugi, Man is a political animal, and being so if one harbors ambition to understand himself and live well then he must be a political scientist.
I like your definition of leadership. At least it's so ancient. It reminds us of how humans evolve politically.
In my opinion the challenge of our age is to script a new social and political life that will help us adapt to a new financial and economic order, intensified cross cultural exchange and interaction, climate change, and sophisticated artificial intelligence.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:In assessing the 2, you ought to look at the environments they operated in
Mandela in the post cold war democracy era and Mwalimu in the cold war era when you could be an autocrat and be protected by your East/West powers you bowed down to
Nyerere's neighbours were land grabber Kenyatta and infamous dictator Amin Which is more valuable. Greatness acquired the hard way or the easy way? what's the hard way? The hard way is greater. But we must define the hard way. Going to jail cannot be the only parameter. Other guys like Govan Mbeki, Sisulu, Mhlaba were jailed for rougly the same number of years as Mandela(bear in mind Mandela was not in jail in the last year but a bungalow resident with a white chef) So why aren't these guys as venerated as mandela?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Quote:As for those who insist that Sankara was a greater man than either Julias or Nelson, I disagree. Sankara, like Lumumba, and Jesus before them, was a beneficiary of conflated time. Simply, he did not live long enough to make the mistakes that would have revealed him as human. Maybe Mandela falls under the same time context. At the helm for 5 years only during transition. Mandela's legacy was more than 27 years in the making and in the process overcame many human frailties like multiple divorce, child abandonment, a failed boxing/legal career etc. Sankara was a young Army Captain when he took power and lived only a few years at the helm. Lumumba never really had time to practice state leadership before he was killed. It is easy to romanticize people we do not know very well, especially if they were dashing young men/women, or were taken away under tragic conditions. Closer to home: if Kimathi/Mboya had lived to become mired in the dirt of recent politics do you think we would have their statues adorning the capital city today? I totally agree with your points about guys who die young/whose lives are cut short in the struggle I often wonder if Mboya/JM/Ouko would be heroes today if they had lived on. I imagine Ouko being sent to oblivion in 92 for sticking with moi like aringo n kaliech
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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Lolest! wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:In assessing the 2, you ought to look at the environments they operated in
Mandela in the post cold war democracy era and Mwalimu in the cold war era when you could be an autocrat and be protected by your East/West powers you bowed down to
Nyerere's neighbours were land grabber Kenyatta and infamous dictator Amin Which is more valuable. Greatness acquired the hard way or the easy way? what's the hard way? The hard way is greater. But we must define the hard way. Going to jail cannot be the only parameter. Other guys like Govan Mbeki, Sisulu, Mhlaba were jailed for rougly the same number of years as Mandela(bear in mind Mandela was not in jail in the last year but a bungalow resident with a white chef) So why aren't these guys as venerated as mandela? Mandela's single act of greatness must really be the fact that he was able to convince the Kaburu to entrust him with power after over 100 years of apartheid, discrimination and murder against him and his people. I don't get the bit where people are talking about being jailed as the only measure of his greatness. 50 years from now, Mandela could possibly be named among the greatest person to ever live. I am still not getting the love for Nyerere. What did he do of naught. I personally rank him at par with Kenyatta. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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tycho wrote:@Wakanyugi, Man is a political animal, and being so if one harbors ambition to understand himself and live well then he must be a political scientist.
I like your definition of leadership. At least it's so ancient. It reminds us of how humans evolve politically.
In my opinion the challenge of our age is to script a new social and political life that will help us adapt to a new financial and economic order, intensified cross cultural exchange and interaction, climate change, and sophisticated artificial intelligence. Tycho the text in red is important. It represents a point of view that I largely share. My exhortation to you is that you should seriously consider answering this call. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Mandela's single act of greatness must really be the fact that he was able to convince the Kaburu to entrust him with power after over 100 years of apartheid, discrimination and murder against him and his people.
I don't get the bit where people are talking about being jailed as the only measure of his greatness. 50 years from now, Mandela could possibly be named among the greatest person to ever live.
I am still not getting the love for Nyerere. What did he do of naught. I personally rank him at par with Kenyatta.
The British govt and settlers wanted Gichuru/Oginga to lead Kenya to independence after decades. That should not be a measure Everywhere you go everybody thinks Mandela is the greatest African ever. That doesn't mean they're right
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Lolest! wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:In assessing the 2, you ought to look at the environments they operated in
Mandela in the post cold war democracy era and Mwalimu in the cold war era when you could be an autocrat and be protected by your East/West powers you bowed down to
Nyerere's neighbours were land grabber Kenyatta and infamous dictator Amin Which is more valuable. Greatness acquired the hard way or the easy way? what's the hard way? The hard way is greater. But we must define the hard way. Going to jail cannot be the only parameter. Other guys like Govan Mbeki, Sisulu, Mhlaba were jailed for rougly the same number of years as Mandela(bear in mind Mandela was not in jail in the last year but a bungalow resident with a white chef) So why aren't these guys as venerated as Mandela? Good point. Achieving greatness is like running a Marathon. A lot of things have to fall in line on the critical day. Some of them include: media attention of the right kind, availability of suitable villains to demonize, a sense of guilt in the offending class etc. A stint in jail or detention (or even an early death, preferably tragic) does not seem to do any harm either. Now Nyerere ascended to greatness despite the lack of many of these factors. And you still think his greatness is less great? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:My last on this (promise).
I like the point that Mandela was a media created hero, like Mugabe and partly Nyerere were medial created villains. That could be so. But I think it is only part of the story. The media often latches on to something only when there is a groundswell of mass alignment, and that often only for a time. Otherwise old Jomo, Kimathi and the young Mandela would have died as villains.
There is a saying that 'Language is merely a dialect with an army.' Similarly effective media is a Newspaper or TV station with a powerful economy behind it. The media writes history but only from the perspective of those who win.
You promised.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:In assessing the 2, you ought to look at the environments they operated in
Mandela in the post cold war democracy era and Mwalimu in the cold war era when you could be an autocrat and be protected by your East/West powers you bowed down to
Nyerere's neighbours were land grabber Kenyatta and infamous dictator Amin Which is more valuable. Greatness acquired the hard way or the easy way? what's the hard way? The hard way is greater. But we must define the hard way. Going to jail cannot be the only parameter. Other guys like Govan Mbeki, Sisulu, Mhlaba were jailed for rougly the same number of years as Mandela(bear in mind Mandela was not in jail in the last year but a bungalow resident with a white chef) So why aren't these guys as venerated as mandela? Mandela's single act of greatness must really be the fact that he was able to convince the Kaburu to entrust him with power after over 100 years of apartheid, discrimination and murder against him and his people. I don't get the bit where people are talking about being jailed as the only measure of his greatness. 50 years from now, Mandela could possibly be named among the greatest person to ever live. I am still not getting the love for Nyerere. What did he do of naught. I personally rank him at par with Kenyatta. The year after Mandela became President, I happened to be in a meeting in Uganda that included White South Africans. I remember one man explaining to me, almost in tears, the fear his tribe had of what Mandela would do to them in revenge for what they had done to him. For him Mandelas single greatest act of greatness was he did NOT do. I share that view. Nyerere was a moral and intellectual giant. How many people do you know who have: led a nation out of colonialism, developed a political/economic/moral philosophy, imposed it on an entire people, remained true to their moral principles, managed to resist the enticements of power and translated Shakeshphere in their spare time? Even Gandhi did not do that much. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:My last on this (promise).
I like the point that Mandela was a media created hero, like Mugabe and partly Nyerere were medial created villains. That could be so. But I think it is only part of the story. The media often latches on to something only when there is a groundswell of mass alignment, and that often only for a time. Otherwise old Jomo, Kimathi and the young Mandela would have died as villains.
There is a saying that 'Language is merely a dialect with an army.' Similarly effective media is a Newspaper or TV station with a powerful economy behind it. The media writes history but only from the perspective of those who win.
You promised. oops you got me. I am banishing myself to a corner right now to think in silence on what I have done. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/6/2008 Posts: 3,549
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tycho wrote:
@Much know, it's true that 'Irrimu(ghost)' has been highly problematic and especially in our country.
However, being a linguistic expression, it doesn't express something that existed but is metaphor of a desire for a certain political experience. It's on that account that I think 'Real' is too strong a word.
As you've mentioned, the range of political organization across Africa was wide, and even inter and cross cultural order was managed different from the global and international order that came with the colonialists. That context itself gave way to plenty of distortion and exaggeration. For example even now ideas like 'willing buyer, willing seller' are sources of contention with the state apparently championing for it despite resistance from some quarters.
We need to be aware of these facts indeed if we are to create a political "fakeness" that's optimally adaptive.
Tycho, there is no future, past or present participle or "African Socialism". Question) Please point to an African Country that practice/s African socialism a) In the past b) In the present c) In the future Fake Kabisa. Fake is NOT too strong a word. Just because our ancestors spoke of "Irrimu" and "Irrimuland" does not mean our leaders were lead by "Irrimu" as mzungu claimed, and as they in turn spoke of "African Socialism"/Irrimuland, let us not talk of irrimu in a place called "serious talk"  Meru Holiness
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:In assessing the 2, you ought to look at the environments they operated in
Mandela in the post cold war democracy era and Mwalimu in the cold war era when you could be an autocrat and be protected by your East/West powers you bowed down to
Nyerere's neighbours were land grabber Kenyatta and infamous dictator Amin Which is more valuable. Greatness acquired the hard way or the easy way? what's the hard way? The hard way is greater. But we must define the hard way. Going to jail cannot be the only parameter. Other guys like Govan Mbeki, Sisulu, Mhlaba were jailed for rougly the same number of years as Mandela(bear in mind Mandela was not in jail in the last year but a bungalow resident with a white chef) So why aren't these guys as venerated as Mandela? Good point. Achieving greatness is like running a Marathon. A lot of things have to fall in line on the critical day. Some of them include: media attention of the right kind, availability of suitable villains to demonize, a sense of guilt in the offending class etc. A stint in jail or detention (or even an early death, preferably tragic) does not seem to do any harm either. Now Nyerere ascended to greatness despite the lack of many of these factors. And you still think his greatness is less great? I think his greatness is greater He lived in the days of the African Big Men. He could have opted to be like the rest of them he had a had a harder time for a guy who wanted to be good as temptation was more
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:My last on this (promise).
I like the point that Mandela was a media created hero, like Mugabe and partly Nyerere were medial created villains. That could be so. But I think it is only part of the story. The media often latches on to something only when there is a groundswell of mass alignment, and that often only for a time. Otherwise old Jomo, Kimathi and the young Mandela would have died as villains.
There is a saying that 'Language is merely a dialect with an army.' Similarly effective media is a Newspaper or TV station with a powerful economy behind it. The media writes history but only from the perspective of those who win.
You promised. oops you got me. I am banishing myself to a corner right now to think in silence on what I have done. I am just being a kill joy. I tried to kill this thing early but it seems its on an unstoppable roll. You are forgiven. Go on. Duty calls.
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