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Tolerating the Children of Darkness
tycho
#21 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 3:45:29 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:
tycho wrote:
Muriel wrote:
tycho wrote:

Let me repeat what I said, there are instances of corruption that may be deemed as just.

The legal systems I know have an exceptional view of justice. That's why lawyers exist.


Like which instance?


Resolving a trumped up criminal case by paying the arresting officers a fraction of your bond or cash bail may be an instance of distributive justice.

Why cast your lot with the children of darkness?

Aren't we enlightened enough?


After this question I decided to look at possible patterns and trends from the least corrupt to most corrupt countries and I found that:

1. The least corrupt countries had well defined political structures that went deep into the past, had little or no internal or external destabilizing factors, were harmonious with global powers and global market trends, and had relatively high incomes.

2. Most corrupt countries had a reversal of the above named factors in toto or in most of the above factors.

So when we consider a country like Kenya and check for these factors it's not difficult to see how and why corruption is so endemic. Our political pedigree is shaky, our conformity and harmony with global powers and the concomitant market structures ambivalent, and our earnings are low.

So for me, I realize that demonizing others, alienating ourselves politically, and even seeking to suppress and punish corrupt behavior are PR stunts and are likely to increase and entrench corruption.

But if we accept our corruption status and look at how corruption serves us and how it hampers our growth in the light of our context we can generate practical and workable solutions.
Muriel
#22 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 9:07:46 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
tycho wrote:


After this question I decided to look at possible patterns and trends from the least corrupt to most corrupt countries and I found that:

1. The least corrupt countries had well defined political structures that went deep into the past, had little or no internal or external destabilizing factors, were harmonious with global powers and global market trends, and had relatively high incomes.

2. Most corrupt countries had a reversal of the above named factors in toto or in most of the above factors.

So when we consider a country like Kenya and check for these factors it's not difficult to see how and why corruption is so endemic. Our political pedigree is shaky, our conformity and harmony with global powers and the concomitant market structures ambivalent, and our earnings are low.

So for me, I realize that demonizing others, alienating ourselves politically, and even seeking to suppress and punish corrupt behavior are PR stunts and are likely to increase and entrench corruption.

But if we accept our corruption status and look at how corruption serves us and how it hampers our growth in the light of our context we can generate practical and workable solutions.



So you looked at possible patterns and trends from the least corrupt to the most corrupt?

And what did you find out?

Filtered conclusions! Let the evidence, the premises lead to the conclusion. Not the reverse.

The least corrupt countries had a history that indeed went deep into the past.

What past?

That is what you filtered out. You are biased against that past yet use it to buttress your claim. Illegitimately.

Acknowledge that past. Give it credit. Thank it.

And answer me why you are casting your lot with the children of darkness? That is not demonization, just a question. A question that is not impossible to answer.

Muriel
#23 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 9:14:04 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
Let me lay out my cards on the table.

I draw my persistence from this inspiring study done by

Political scientists Ronald Inglehart of the University of Michigan and Christian Welzel of Luephana University in Germany

This is not just some random academic study.





We need to be enlightened about this. As we admire Scandinavia, we need to recognise their roots.

Hence Alma's was right on cue with the thread "Tolerating the Children of Darkness." It might be more than coincidence.
tycho
#24 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 9:14:07 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Muriel, if you show me how I have been biased against the past then I can make amends.

For example, how have I not acknowledged it?
tycho
#25 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 9:38:45 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:
Let me lay out my cards on the table.

I draw my persistence from this inspiring study done by

Political scientists Ronald Inglehart of the University of Michigan and Christian Welzel of Luephana University in Germany

This is not just some random academic study.





We need to be enlightened about this. As we admire Scandinavia, we need to recognise their roots.

Hence Alma's was right on cue with the thread "Tolerating the Children of Darkness." It might be more than coincidence.


Help me also to understand how this study you've provided shows how alma is on cue.

And probably what you mean by saying this isn't a random study.
Muriel
#26 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 10:07:44 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
tycho wrote:
Muriel wrote:
Let me lay out my cards on the table.

I draw my persistence from this inspiring study done by

Political scientists Ronald Inglehart of the University of Michigan and Christian Welzel of Luephana University in Germany

This is not just some random academic study.





We need to be enlightened about this. As we admire Scandinavia, we need to recognise their roots.

Hence Alma's was right on cue with the thread "Tolerating the Children of Darkness." It might be more than coincidence.


Help me also to understand how this study you've provided shows how alma is on cue.

And probably what you mean by saying this isn't a random study.



As soon as you tell me why you are siding with the children of darkness. Ati 'resolving a trumped up criminal case by paying the arresting officers a fraction of your bond or cash bail may be an instance of distributive justice.'
tycho
#27 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 10:25:27 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:
tycho wrote:
Muriel wrote:
Let me lay out my cards on the table.

I draw my persistence from this inspiring study done by

Political scientists Ronald Inglehart of the University of Michigan and Christian Welzel of Luephana University in Germany

This is not just some random academic study.





We need to be enlightened about this. As we admire Scandinavia, we need to recognise their roots.

Hence Alma's was right on cue with the thread "Tolerating the Children of Darkness." It might be more than coincidence.


Help me also to understand how this study you've provided shows how alma is on cue.

And probably what you mean by saying this isn't a random study.



As soon as you tell me why you are siding with the children of darkness. Ati 'resolving a trumped up criminal case by paying the arresting officers a fraction of your bond or cash bail may be an instance of distributive justice.'


Lol.

First, I don't have to agree with your typologies and secondly, if you don't think my argument about distributive justice is right or true you just state your case. If you enlighten me then I'll definitely change my view.

If you make this to a push and shove kind of thing then I can surrender and let you and alma and anyone else who's interested have your light.
Muriel
#28 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 10:44:26 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
tycho wrote:
Muriel wrote:
tycho wrote:
Muriel wrote:
Let me lay out my cards on the table.

I draw my persistence from this inspiring study done by

Political scientists Ronald Inglehart of the University of Michigan and Christian Welzel of Luephana University in Germany

This is not just some random academic study.





We need to be enlightened about this. As we admire Scandinavia, we need to recognise their roots.

Hence Alma's was right on cue with the thread "Tolerating the Children of Darkness." It might be more than coincidence.


Help me also to understand how this study you've provided shows how alma is on cue.

And probably what you mean by saying this isn't a random study.



As soon as you tell me why you are siding with the children of darkness. Ati 'resolving a trumped up criminal case by paying the arresting officers a fraction of your bond or cash bail may be an instance of distributive justice.'


Lol.

First, I don't have to agree with your typologies and secondly, if you don't think my argument about distributive justice is right or true you just state your case. If you enlighten me then I'll definitely change my view.

If you make this to a push and shove kind of thing then I can surrender and let you and alma and anyone else who's interested have your light.


I pushed because you shoved.
tycho
#29 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 10:50:37 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
And how did I shove Muriel?
Muriel
#30 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 11:04:24 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
tycho wrote:
And how did I shove Muriel?


Corruption is not a (secular) rational value. The least corrupt countries evidently do not have it as part of their rational values.

Hence 'Corruption could be a rational reaction to an unfair or inefficient and ineffective system.' is not true.

A rational reaction has been, ought to be fixing the system. History has a role in the fixing of these systems. It is neigh impossible to adjust these systems now. The present is the product of the past and unless the past is changed, or the present wholly supplanted there is nothing to be done. They are cast in concrete. So the only subsequent matter is choosing which side one sees fit to be in. Hence my question why your choice?

Your discrimination against my question shoved.
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